Newbie needs upgrade help

[Dom_P]

Guys

Thanks for all the great advice. The MC302/303 option sounds very interesting. And don't we always stretch our budgets?

The Def Techs look nice, though I noticed they have integrated powered subs. So here's another rub. I bought a Hsu Reseach VTF-15H a few weeks ago, before I found this forum (on advice at the other AV forum when my old sub decided to cash it in). It doesnt seem to get any attention here (not sure if that's for good reason, or just that it's more an HT sub). I have a couple days left in which I can return it, though it's gonna cost about $200 all in to do so. For HT it provides quite a kick in the butt, but I'm interested in your take

BTW, as for the screen. Yes, I'll be running front projection at some point but for the time being will be using my 65in Mits DLP rear projection.

Dom

[mbovaird]

Dom - how big is your room? Are there open areas? The HSU is a good sub for home theater, but in my opinion, two Def Tech subs which are built into the speakers will give you as much, maybe more low frequency, and most certainly will integrate better for 2 channel listening. And if you still want more bass, add a Def Tech sub or two.

As for the $200....I must admit, I chuckled. Sorry. If I look at the money I've wasted....errr....spent on things I bought and sent back, I could have bought another system. I just spent $1400 in shipping costs to have Mcintosh 601 amps and 1.2kws amps shipped to me to try (and shipped back).

That being said, the great folks on the AA forum have helped significantly reduced those....uhhhh....mistakes.

As a side, I personally like the 8080ST system over the Mythos when I heard them. The 8080ST has the bipolar design. Not to steer you away from AA, but you may want to find a Definitive Technology forum.

And most importantly, find a Def Tech dealer who has the 8080ST and the Mythos top of the line and go listen.

Now, to really confuse you, besides Def Tech, take a look (and listen) to the Golden Ear Triton 2 speakers, Klipsch makes some great stuff - and they've been around for 60+ years and Paradigm speakers.

Mike

[Dom_P]

Fair enough $200 isn't a lot in the general scheme of things. But I dread packing the beast back up again . Any ways I have a couple more days to decide.

I do like the Def Tech idea, and again, WAF of getting rid of the big sub, may go in my favor. Plus I'm guessing the stereo subs are a big plus.

Funny enough, the 8080s don't look much different than my current floor standers (don't laugh - NHT VT1.2s), though the similarity ends there.

[Whart]

One other alternative, which is more of a philosphical approach than a recommendation of particular gear, is whether you want to have your two channel audio and home theatre systems integrated at all. I've had some pretty elaborate home theatre systems over the years, but my hi-fi, which is vinyl only as a source, has always been an entirely separate system. Even now, with a smaller scale projection system, the McI processor and multichannel amps, two subwoofers, etc., it has nothing to do with the hi-fi and even has a separate power source- a 240 volt stepdown transformer, to isolate it from the audio system. If you are not vinyl driven on the 2 channel side, and like blue ray music videos, that may not make sense, but for me, I basically used the home theatre system to watch movies, and the occasional TV show. The advantage, on the 2 channel side, is that it does away with some of the complexity, some of the potential for additional noise and can be optimized for serious music listening. Downside, i suppose, is more equipment and the need for more space to accomodate it. However, right now, I'm using the same room for both. The projection screen is on the 'back wall' of the listening room and for hi-fi, i have moveable corner traps and mid-high frequency absorption panels on stands that effectively treat the reflective nature of the screen. When I want to watch a movie on the projector, I simply move the chairs to the other side of the room, between the hi fi speakers, and face the back wall. The projector obviously points to the back wall. I'm thinking of doing away with the projection stuff altogether once we move and will be doing a build-out for a separate listening room/office that is really all about 2 channel audio.
Like I said, it's a philosphical issue, not a 'gear' issue.

[Dom_P]

Whart

Thanks for your perspective. What you say makes a lot of sense and I may get there someday.

In the short term I'm hoping I can find a sweet spot between audio and HT and grow into higher end analog over time. At this point, I don't own much vinyl and I have a lot to learn based on perusing the turntable forum here.

This may be the newbie speaking, but my thought is to try to find a decent pre/pro with a good analog section. For 2 channel, drive that analog section from a digital source with high end DAC. For HT and multichannel audio use 7 channel analog (if available) and HDMI when not.

To this novice, the trick to pulling this off seems to be finding a set of speakers that can pull double duty and to drive them with clean amplification.

Maybe this is where I'm being naive. Maybe such a pre/pro doesn't exist and maybe those speakers don't exist. Or maybe they do and my budget is unrealistic. But I think its going to be a fun ride trying to figure that out, and this seems like a great place to try to do that.

Dom

[Whart]

A few additional observations, Dom. The McIntosh gear will serve well in several respects- as noted, it is not consumer 'box shop' crap, but real gear; as I said, I replaced a highly regarded (but aged) Meridian processor with a McIntosh processor and haven't looked back.
Admittedly, I don't use it for analog sources, so you are going to have to take input from others on using one for hi-fi, but frankly, once you've decided to go to a single system for both, I don't think you'll find much better at any price. To me, home theatre sound places different demands on a system than music- yes, the ability to get dynamics, and open, natural sound (even if the soundtracks are anything but most of the time). The trick, it seems to me, is coming up with the right amplifier-speaker combination to accomplish music and movie sounds effectively. The kind of bass associated with sound effects on a movie soundtrack is not the kind of bass that you'll necessarily want for music (unless you want 'slam' but you are sure to outgrow that). Yet even that can be accomplished through judicious settings for the woofer/subwoofer set up. I have no clue as to what dynamic speakers out there really can deliver the goods on both fronts, music and movies, so i think that's where you should devote your energy in research and listening. It's pretty unlikely that you are going to find a speaker that won't work well with the McIntosh amps. And, the Mc gear holds its value better than most electronics, so it's not much of a risk if you want to change at some point.
My perspective is also a little different. After having had those big, immerse yourself in the theatrical experience type systems in dedicated rooms with the ability to block all ambient light, big screen and the best resolution I could buy at the time- from Laserdisc through DVD with various line doublers and a native rate digital scaler, to HD and BluRay, big separate amps and woofers, etc. (this goes back to the mid-90's), I sort of lost interest in all that. I can watch a film on a modest flat screen with a decent surround system and be happy. So, I would get out there and listen to some speaker systems. The rest should fall into place. Hell, from what I'm told, even that $999 Oppo makes for a good player on both fronts and keeps the budget down.

[Dom_P]

I'm gonna see if I can get out to a local dealer tomorrow night to have a listen to the Golden Ear Triton 2 speakers. Reviews seem very positive. The dealer also sells McIntosh gear so maybe I can have a listen to the MX121 as well.

In addition, unless convinced otherwise I'm going to return the HSU sub in a day or two, as something tells me I may have made too rash a decision there.

[Dom_P]

Just got back from listening to the Golden Ear Triton 2s. They sounded great.

Highs and midrange were orders better than I'm used to. They were being driven by a 50W Rega amp. One thing that impressed me was even when I turned the volume down to levels a lot lower than Im used to the highs were still there and very clear.(sorry about the novice vocab, doing my best )

Bass was a little muddled at first, but then tuned it in a bit by lowering it, and the bass tightened up very nicely. My guess is that will take some tweaking.

I brought a bunch of material... classical, opera, easy listening, etc. Especially nice were higher frequency female vocals. Then the dealer put in a disc with some very low bass notes in it. I was amazed at the bass coming out of the floor standers. The HSU sub I just bought, doesn't come close. That said, I'm packing it up tonight and having FedEx pick it up in the AM.

The dealer then invites me upstairs to listen to "something a little higher end". He walks me into a room setup with Wilson Sashas, a Shindo tube preamp, Arcam DAC, a Mac mini, and a couple very large solid state mono blocks (didn't catch the name of them, but he did mention they were $15k each).

Let's just say the Golden Ears, Rega amp and Marantz CD player I was listening to in the other room were very good, but this was in another league entirely. I'm now officially jealous of some of the systems you guys have and I completely understand the obsession. I think I've just been put on an expensive path that I'll need to explain to my better half in the coming months and years. I will say one thing though, having listened to a high end system fed by a high end digital source, I'm not sure vinyl will be in my future, at least not any time soon.

I still want to give a listen to the Def Techs, and anything else you folks suggest, but this was a great start.

So another question for you, given how well these seemed to be driven by a 2x50W amp, is 300W per channel going to be overkill?

[mbovaird]

Originally Posted by Dom_P

Just got back from listening to the Golden Ear Triton 2s. They sounded great.

Highs and midrange were orders better than I'm used to. They were being driven by a 50W Rega amp. One thing that impressed me was even when I turned the volume down to levels a lot lower than Im used to the highs were still there and very clear.(sorry about the novice vocab, doing my best )

Bass was a little muddled at first, but then tuned it in a bit by lowering it, and the bass tightened up very nicely. My guess is that will take some tweaking.

I brought a bunch of material... classical, opera, easy listening, etc. Especially nice were higher frequency female vocals. Then the dealer put in a disc with some very low bass notes in it. I was amazed at the bass coming out of the floor standers. The HSU sub I just bought, doesn't come close. That said, I'm packing it up tonight and having FedEx pick it up in the AM.

The dealer then invites me upstairs to listen to "something a little higher end". He walks me into a room setup with Wilson Sashas, a Shindo tube preamp, Arcam DAC, a Mac mini, and a couple very large solid state mono blocks (didn't catch the name of them, but he did mention they were $15k each).

Let's just say the Golden Ears, Rega amp and Marantz CD player I was listening to in the other room were very good, but this was in another league entirely. I'm now officially jealous of some of the systems you guys have and I completely understand the obsession. I think I've just been put on an expensive path that I'll need to explain to my better half in the coming months and years. I will say one thing though, having listened to a high end system fed by a high end digital source, I'm not sure vinyl will be in my future, at least not any time soon.

I still want to give a listen to the Def Techs, and anything else you folks suggest, but this was a great start.

So another question for you, given how well these seemed to be driven by a 2x50W amp, is 300W per channel going to be overkill?

At a 91db efficiency, the Triton Two is quite easy to drive - hence the reason a 50 watt amp had no problems. Is 300 overkill? Never! You are really only talking about an addition 2.5db of gain (unless my math is off). The additional wattage will allow the amps to grip the woofers better and give you a little more headroom too. Plus, if you join the Mike & Joe club (it's really more of a support group ) - then the additional power will give you flexibility and more options for future speaker purchases.

Mike

[GaryProtein]

Going from 50 watts to 300 watts is about 7.8 dB gain.