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Old 04-11-2009, 01:52 PM
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Alberto Alberto is offline
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Default What a difference a sub - or two - make

My Guarneri Homage are AMAZING speakers. Considering their size, they fill my 11x17x9 room incredibly well and, with the iron fist in a velvet glove of the MC501s driving them, they have a surprisingly good low end ... for most types of music.

But when I want blast some Led Zeppelin, there is no way that the small woofer can do Bonham's oversized bass drum justice. I believe that, when properly matched, the monitor + sub combination is hard to beat -- especially for small rooms. However, finding a sub to integrate well with the GH has been a challenge.

After trying at least 10 different subs (from $500 to $3000) I ended up going with one of the least expensive Rel T2. This is not the fastest, or deepest of subs. But the faster stop-on-a-dime sub always stood out against the GH (and I do like my bass to "linger a little" anyway), and going too deep in my smallish room created more problems than it was worth it.

The Rel T2, with its traditional class A/B amp integrated amazingly well (i.e. it did not stand out.) But there was still a room mode problem that was, if anything, made a bit worse by having just one sub.

I had another old cheapo sub (Triad brand from 15 years ago) and I thought, what the heck, let me add it. I connected to the C220 Out2 so I could turn it on/off (aren't full featured preamps convenient?) and without spending more than 15 minutes on placement, I managed to eliminate a couple of low frequency suck-outs. I am thrilled with how the system deals with the 3 lower octaves: 20-40Hz, 40-80Hz, 80-160Hz.

Bottom line (pun intended) - the hype about 2 woofers are better is not only theoretically sound (i.e. because they can help cancel out each other's room modes) but it works incredibly well. If you have a sub budget, I'd consider buying splitting it an buy two cheaper subs than a single more expensive one.

Based on this experience, I am considering replacing the cheap second sub with another Rel T2 - if only for a consistent look.

Alberto

CL: Led Zeppelin - How The West Was Won ... MDA + C220 + MC501 + Sonus Faber + Subs make it sound great and non-fatiguing - even though it's a pretty harsh CD.

Last edited by Alberto; 04-11-2009 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:23 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Agreed. My two Fathom F112s have transformed my listening experience like no other full range speakers could ever do in my 14x17 room. I can enjoy bass down to 18Hz with no evils of bloat or overhang. The speed and musicality of the JL Audio subs is a force to be reckoned with. IMHO, the speed and musicality of a sub is very important with monitors as the 6-6.5" drivers are very fast and to be able to integrate smoothly, you need a sealed, fast and linear bass drivers that can only be controlled that well by adequate power. The Fathoms have 1500w each for plenty of control and overhead. When the music calls for that kind of deep bass, they will keep up without loosing composure or sounding thick or bloated. One of my favorite's is Haggard, talk about bass that will shake the foundation once in a while. Scary. But you'd never know the subs were in my system because they add virtually no sonic signature of their own. Takes some tweaking to get it to that level though.

Last edited by PHC1; 04-11-2009 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-11-2009, 04:33 PM
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Absolutely agree, subwoofer symmetry does make a big, positive, difference in a sound room. If you have the space and resources, go at it!
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHC1 View Post
Agreed. My two Fathom F112s have transformed my listening experience ...
Hi PHC1,

Where are the two subs placed in the room?
And, how did you wire them into your stereo system?
Does the Ayre handle the crossovers or do the subs?

Thanks!
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:41 PM
PHC1 PHC1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-Channel View Post
Hi PHC1,

Where are the two subs placed in the room?
And, how did you wire them into your stereo system?
Does the Ayre handle the crossovers or do the subs?

Thanks!
The subs should be placed in the corners for most applications where they "load up" the room properly. Some guys like to place them near speakers since they feel the wave-launch will be more in sync with the speakers. I don't feel the same way since the Fathoms have phase and other well thought out controls. I use the phase controls to match each speaker precisely with each sub even though each sub is about 3 feet apart from its respective speaker.

I use an active crossover in my system so I can control how much bass will go to the speaker and how much to the subs. Only an active crossover will allow you to remove some bass from speakers. My monitor speakers sound more coherent because they don't have to struggle to reproduce very deep bass and this eliminates much of the intermodulation distortion of the 6.5" driver of my speaker.

The results are fantastic. At least in my very picky ears when it comes to bass quality.

Here is an old setup flow chart I did a while back to help explain how I have my subs setup.

Notice that the lows are split up before they even get to the amps/speakers. Easier on the amps, easier on the speakers.

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Old 04-11-2009, 08:46 PM
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Fantastic. The flow chart answers everything. Thank You!
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