Krell Cipher SACD and Luxman CD8

[Anthony]

Auditioned the Krell Cipher and Luxman CD8 SACD players, both thru the same setup McIntosh 452 power amp, BW802 speakers but with a good Bryston pre amp.
Few quick thoughts come to hand:

Luxman has a few good things going for it, the loading drawer is excellent quality with a real precise mechanism, and the plastic CD tray material and its surface texture is rather unique and does assist the disc to locate perfectly. It sounds good being similar in sound style to (my) Marantz reference SA11-S2 but with the next step up in greater definition and layering. I felt the Luxman bass was nice and clear and punchy but on some bass strong recordings was over emphasised though, (and I do very much appreciate a good bass beat). An issue for people using xlr balanced cables is the hot pin is different between Japan & USA and there is no switch to change it like other brands have.
The Krell has sound filter options but the Luxman has none.

The bit more expensive Krell Cipher grows on you very quickly and is indeed very special. I liked the large scale lettering on the track numbers etc. The presentation was smoother than I was expecting, (thought it might have had excess shrill but it didn't). The layering of each instrument, the complexity in the bass notes, the spatial in air magic that touches the senses in so many ways, it even got my adrenalin going, now that's a special effect!

Tracks were presented quite differently to what I'm used to. Closer to a recording studio where you can imagine every instrument's input into the mixing board.

Most of the listening was on familiar CDs, but inserted a familiar SACD and it was special beyond words.

Fascinating experience. Better get back to the HiFi shop to have another listen before it goes.

Anthony

[Still-One]

Anthony
Both units sound very interesting. Sounds as if the Krell pushes all of the right buttons for you.

[Anthony]

Following on from (my) first quick comments that covered red book CD sound (and how the Krell wowed me), the 2nd visit was to compare SACD sound, and boy did the tide turn.

I find the best way to 'compare' players is with instrumental tracks, and no singers in order to get a proper handle on a machines depth of ability. As up-front voice mixes are usually too dominant so to me its harder to concentrate on the the fine nuances and the mix of instruments.
Female/male voice was focused on separately.

In SACD mode, the CD8 showed what it was made of, the sound being so refined, refined, refined - it stood out from the Krell. This refinement was also reflected in the female voice being excellent and so natural sounding.

This is what I learned in SACD mode: The Krell Cipher presented its multi layered sound being very midrange lifted. The CD8 on the same notes was more composed being further down in the frequency range and also presented more as one, rather than layered.
On bass finer detail the Krell was just a little bit better, not by much at all.

All along the thought was what is best for long term enjoyment and listenability not short term thrill. The CD8 in SACD mode was the most enjoyable to me.

Other pluses and minuses: Previously mentioned was the Krell display was large (a like), with the CD8 being the opposite in the smallest display I've ever seen and very clear, but the remote has a zoom button to enlarge the track number but this defaults back to small again when disc or another function is changed. The CD8 tray & mechanism loading is real quality vs the Krell that is the opposite.
The Krell in a lot of ways looks good enough in its 1980's research lab presentation vs the CD8's aim obviously being nothing less than perfect construction.

Next listen will be the Esoteric K-03 that sits at a more attractive price point compared to the more expensive Krell Cipher & Luxman CD8 . Will it wow me, so far its looks certainly do.

Anthony
in Australia

[jeffkrag]

So, Krell is clear winner on Redbook, and Luxman is clear winner on SACD? If you had to choose now, which way would you go?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by jeffkad

So, Krell is clear winner on Redbook, and Luxman is clear winner on SACD? If you had to choose now, which way would you go?

Tough question, I'm in both camps, and looking further. Given the similar price of both units, one would consider the pedigree of both brands, resale value, and many other of your own value and performance factors.

One area I'm weighing up regards the lifetime of the Cipher transport/tray mechanism as the tray and loading mechanism was not so confidence inspiring (uneven operation and wobbly). One would hope the company has performed multi thousand mechanism tests in this area. A confidence inspiring 5-10 year warranty wouldn't go astray given the saga of previous models that has stranded many users.

That said, the sound of the Cipher overall was pretty amazing and a useful benchmark to compare against all other competitors.

Anthony

[LordoftheRingsEE]

Thank you very much Anthony; it's not everyday that we see two high-end CD/SACD players like the Krell Cipher
and the Luxman CD8 compared together and from their playback of both music mediums.

[Elberoth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A confidence inspiring 5-10 year warranty wouldn't go astray given the saga of previous models that has stranded many models

Not sure which models do you have in mind. The one that caused Krell the biggest headache was SACD Standard, where the source of problems was the unreliable Philips SACD drive.

Other manufacturers that used this drive in their designs - from Musical Fidelity to dCS - also faced the same reliability problems.

The new players from Krell use a different drive (not sure about Cipher, but the S350 CD uses TEAC for example).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Elberoth

Not sure which models do you have in mind. The one that caused Krell the biggest headache was SACD Standard, where the source of problems was the unreliable Philips SACD drive.

Other manufacturers that used this drive in their designs - from Musical Fidelity to dCS - also faced the same reliability problems.

The new players from Krell use a different drive (not sure about Cipher, but the S350 CD uses TEAC for example).

Specific drive issues reported by media publications (also mentioned in forums member posts).

Stereophile magazine has a review 14 May 2012 that mentions the Raymedia Chinese brand of drive in the Krell Cipher and 505 predecessor. The reviewer experienced an unpleasant transport/laser issue and this is mentioned in page 2, Caveats.
Krell Cipher SACD/CD player | Stereophile.com

Australian Hi-Fi tested the Krell S-350a in Jan. 2011 (Teac slot loader version) - The reviewer states "I found that when I loaded discs they were not always 'grabbed' by the mechanism on the first insertion and also that I needed to push the disc almost all the way inside the slot before it was grabbed by the mechanism and taken into the player's innards to be loaded onto the drive spindle". In Cons section: "CD loading can be clunky ans slow".

For reader information - UK magazine HiFi+ (December 2012) has a review of the Cipher by Alvin Gold. He liked it a lot. I bought the magazine recently to enlighten me during my listening tests.

Anthony

[Masterlu]

I have an opportunity to demo the Krell Cipher CD/SACD player at my home; I am looking forward to it.

[jdandy]

Ivan.......I wish I could tell you the Krell Cipher was a looker.