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Phono-Pre Amps & Cartridges Welcome to the Dark Side!

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  #11  
Old 10-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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Worth a read....

https://darko.audio/2015/07/pro-ject...etter-digital/
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mraudio View Post
Koetsu Rosewood Signature. Relax, sit back and enjoy!
Yup! That is exactly what I would have recommended for this price range.
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Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:19 PM
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Sorry, I need to modify my response from +1 to NO GO.

I ran the numbers on the Koetsu Rosewood Signature and the compliance of 5 x 10 -6 cm/dyne is way too low to work with your arm.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v

Last edited by W9TR; 10-12-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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  #14  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:47 PM
robd2 robd2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cohibaman View Post
This was a great share. The last few years I’ve learned a lot about cart output to stage gain/overload matching but I still don’t fully get the mass/compliance compatibility. Does everyone agree with this statement from the article about my arm?

The 10cc’s higher effective tonearm mass of 8.5g requires a lower compliance cartridge to put the pair in the resonant frequency sweet spot. Think of the suspension system of a car. A compromise must be found between the smoothness of the ride and the driver’s ability to feel the road. A heavier car (arm) necessitates stiffer suspension (lower cartridge compliance) whilst a lighter car can play it a little looser (with higher compliance).
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  #15  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robd2 View Post
This was a great share. The last few years I’ve learned a lot about cart output to stage gain/overload matching but I still don’t fully get the mass/compliance compatibility. Does everyone agree with this statement from the article about my arm?

The 10cc’s higher effective tonearm mass of 8.5g requires a lower compliance cartridge to put the pair in the resonant frequency sweet spot. Think of the suspension system of a car. A compromise must be found between the smoothness of the ride and the driver’s ability to feel the road. A heavier car (arm) necessitates stiffer suspension (lower cartridge compliance) whilst a lighter car can play it a little looser (with higher compliance).
With all due respect to John Darko, whom I really like, his comments regarding automobile suspensions are inaccurate. The key factor for an automobile suspension's ability for "feeling the road" is unsprung mass (which then directly influences spring rate and spring preload, compression and rebound damping), not vehicle weight.
__________________
Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.

Last edited by Puma Cat; 10-12-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robd2 View Post
This was a great share. The last few years I’ve learned a lot about cart output to stage gain/overload matching but I still don’t fully get the mass/compliance compatibility. Does everyone agree with this statement from the article about my arm?

The 10cc’s higher effective tonearm mass of 8.5g requires a lower compliance cartridge to put the pair in the resonant frequency sweet spot. Think of the suspension system of a car. A compromise must be found between the smoothness of the ride and the driver’s ability to feel the road. A heavier car (arm) necessitates stiffer suspension (lower cartridge compliance) whilst a lighter car can play it a little looser (with higher compliance).
The statement above is not correct. Plus Darko doesn't like Dire Straits so he's dead to me.

The mass compliance thing is simple but seems to be a mystery, so let me try to explain it.

All cartridge suspensions are necessarily 'springy' - the needle/cantilever and coil (MC) or magnet (MM) are suspended by an elastomeric material that allows them to move freely to trace the record groove. This springy-ness is called compliance.

All arms have effective mass, that is the mass the cartridge 'feels' at the end of the arm, not the whole mass of the arm, which would be much higher.

Also of course cartridges have mass. This is what Darko missed. The sum of the tonearm effective mass and the actual cartridge mass is what the cartridge suspension 'sees'.

Since there is mass and springiness together, you have a mechanical resonance. Remember the weight (mass) on the end of a spring (compliance) from high school physics? It's that.

So you want to adjust this resonance to be low enough that the cartridge picks up the lowest audio frequencies, but high enough that the cartridge is not sensitive to warped records or footfalls. The ideal range is from 8 to 11 Hz.

The Vinyl Engine has a nice tool you can use to evaluate cartridges for compatibility with your arm. It is the combination of cartridge mass (including mounting hardware), tonearm effective mass, and cartridge compliance that is important here.
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:07 PM
SteveJ SteveJ is offline
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I'll have to see if I can find it. I have a nice article stashed somewhere about the considerations of tonearm mass and cartridge compliance.

There is some information on the Ortofon site;

Low mass arms* mate well with both moderately high and very high compliance phono cartridges.
*A tonearm whose effective mass is rated at 10 grams or below is considered low mass (e.g. early SME’s, Grace 747, Ortofon AS-309S, RS-309D, TA-110 and TA-210).

Moderate mass tonearms** are good companions for moderate to low compliance cartridges.
**A tonearm whose effective mass is rated between 11 and 25 grams is considered moderate mass (e.g. SME 309, IV, IV-VI, V, Triplanar, Graham). Arms above 25 grams of mass are high mass in nature (Eminent Technology, Dynavector).

If a low compliance cartridge is used with a low mass tonearm, undesirable resonances can occur in the audible range. Mistracking may also be a problem.

When a high compliance cartridge is mated with a moderate mass tonearm, resonances in the infrasonic range may occur in addition to some unwanted high frequency damping.

Here is a link; https://www.ortofon.com/support/supp...ance-frequency
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:25 PM
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Rob,
Given the low effective mass of your arm, 8.5g, you will need a cartridge with a compliance of ~ 12 x 10-6 cm/dyn and mass of at least 8g. Your current Sumiko fits this requirement.

The Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation I recommended will not work, its compliance is too low at 8 x 10-6 cm/dyn. Also none of the Koetsu carts will work as they are low compliance at 5 x 10-6 cm/dyn.

In all these cases the resonant frequency will be too high.

Dan's recommendation of the Ortofon Cadenza Black will work nicely. 16 x 10-6 cm/dyn and 10.7g.

Tom
__________________
Main System:
Amati Futura Mains
Amati Homage VOX Center,
Proac Response 1sc Rears,
Three MC2301's for L,C,R
MC 602 for the rears
C 1100, MX 151, MCD 1100, MR 80
Nottingham Dais with Wave Mechanic
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation

SurfacePro 3, RPi 4, ROON, WW Starlight Platinum USB, Schiit Yggdrasil, Benchmark DAC3 HGC

MX 151, OppO BDP-95, JVC RS-500 DILA projector, 106" diagonal Stewart Luxus Screenwall Deluxe with Studiotek 130 G3 material.

Lake House:
Ohm F, MC 275V, C2300, MR 77, Rega P3

OnDeck:
McIntosh MAC 4300v

Last edited by W9TR; 10-12-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:25 PM
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Puma Cat Puma Cat is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 10,901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W9TR View Post
The statement above is not correct. Plus Darko doesn't like Dire Straits so he's dead to me.

The mass compliance thing is simple but seems to be a mystery, so let me try to explain it.

All cartridge suspensions are necessarily 'springy' - the needle/cantilever and coil (MC) or magnet (MM) are suspended by an elastomeric material that allows them to move freely to trace the record groove. This springy-ness is called compliance.

All arms have effective mass, that is the mass the cartridge 'feels' at the end of the arm, not the whole mass of the arm, which would be much higher.

Also of course cartridges have mass. This is what Darko missed. The sum of the tonearm effective mass and the actual cartridge mass is what the cartridge suspension 'sees'.

Since there is mass and springiness together, you have a mechanical resonance. Remember the weight (mass) on the end of a spring (compliance) from high school physics? It's that.

So you want to adjust this resonance to be low enough that the cartridge picks up the lowest audio frequencies, but high enough that the cartridge is not sensitive to warped records or footfalls. The ideal range is from 8 to 11 Hz.

The Vinyl Engine has a nice tool you can use to evaluate cartridges for compatibility with your arm. It is the combination of cartridge mass (including mounting hardware), tonearm effective mass, and cartridge compliance that is important here.


__________________
Lumin P1 streamer/DAC/preamp, Constellation Inspiration integrated TT: Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V, Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, EAR324. Harbeth 30.2s, REL R-305, Shunyata Alpha V2 ICs, Alpha V2 SPs, Sigma XC, Sigma NRv2, Omega QR-s & Alpha NRv2 PCs, segmented Altaira SG stack w/ Alpha & Omega CGCs, Everest 8000 PD. Remote Server Room: Uptone EtherREGEN, AfterDark Master Clock & LPS, Alita, Battle Angel, (Akasa NUC Roon Core), iFi DC Purifiers (for SMPS used for Alita & router), Shunyata Gemini combo power distributor & Altaira-type CG GP-NR hub, Venom & Alpha CGCs, Shunyata NRv14 power cords for digital components.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:39 PM
robd2 robd2 is offline
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Great information everyone. For some reason the Lyra Etna seems to be calling my name. Spec wise it’s a good match for my arm and phono (I think) just not sure if it’s too high quality for my table/arm & phono stage.

Last edited by robd2; 10-13-2019 at 12:43 PM.
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