Differences between Ref 250 and Ref 250SE

[enatai252]

Originally Posted by RLF

I find it interesting that in your evaluation of the Ref 40 vs the Ref 10 that you find the 40 sonically superior to the 10. Maybe system dependent?

Since you own both the Ref 40 and 5SE, in what ways and how much better do you find that the Ref 40 beats the 5 SE?

Did you audition the Ref 6 in your own system when comparing it to your Ref 40? If so, how long and how extensive was your comparison?

Thanks. Your input is most appreciated.

RLF

I will reiterate that I think all four units are really good. I am a big ARC supporter and have owned three of their preamps (Ref2v2 GNSC modded, Ref40 and Ref5SE), three of their tube amps (VS115 GNSC modded, Ref150 and Ref250), DAC8, RefDac, PH3se, Ref2se phono and three DS450monos and DS225. I currently still have the Ref 40, Ref 5se, ref2phono and Ref150 as well as the three DS450monos and DS225 (these DS amps serve as the amplification on a lounge HT system with Wisdom speakers and Classe SSP800).

The only real disappointment I have had with ARC was the RefDac - not because of sound quality, it sounded wonderful - but the user interface was atrocious and they stopped supporting the app to control it. It was an aggressive foray into digital that did not go so well. It is perfect for someone who has a simple digital only system and who doesn't mind the frustrations of dealing with its poor user interface. The Ref 250s sounded great as well but I was super nervous after so many of the units blew early and have since moved on to Ayre MXR 20s.

Let me also restate that this is my opinion, based on my preference and my listening framework. None of these units put you in any form of exclusive club. All four are still available for someone to acquire - the Ref 40 being only on the used market and perhaps the Ref5SE if new stock has cleared but you can still get either one. Lastly, on a purely ergonomic and aesthetic basis, I do not like the large screen on the Ref 10 at all and I am still not completely warmed to the new Ref 6 look. OK - now that any bias I may have is clear - Let me repeat, I like all four units from a SQ basis.

The unit I find is the best is the Ref 40. For both the Ref40 and Ref10, the separate power supply does seem to make a difference for me. Primarily in presenting the foundational elements of the music and a tighter more defined bottom end (likely dependent on your speaker resolution as well). For example, on Dave Holland Extensions, he plays a double bass and on the Ref 40 and the Ref 10, the separate elements of the initial note and subsequent decay comes through more realistically and defined than the other two preamps. The definition of the leading edge sounds more natural. Comparing the Ref40 and Ref10, the voicing of the double bass across its range sounds the most natural to me on the Ref 40. Another example is the 24/192 version of Muddy Waters Folk Singer. His voice rasp and intonation come across more naturally with the Ref 40 than the ref 10. I also generally found the Ref 40 to present more defined soundstage and holographic around each performer than the Ref 10. I really get lost in the presentation with the Ref 40 and the Ref 10 while good....did not get me as far into the performance. Both were better than the Ref 5SE and the 6. I listen to a lot of small scale jazz and have built a system which helps me take in the entire performance or focus on a particular performer and listen along while they interact with the group. I found the Ref 40 to do that best.

Is it the Teflon or the naked Circuit board - don't know. But it is my opinion and I feel comfortable sharing. If Harley were to offer his Ref 10 straight up for my Ref 40 I would politely decline. but it is just my opinion and you should take it for just that. I will also say that in my opinion, the biggest concern I have had with ARC preamps is their use of the ubiquitous volume control circuit rather than discrete resistors. They make it work fine but my dream ARC preamp would be the Ref 40 with a discrete stepped resistor volume control similar to the Ayre KXR20 (which I own) or the Moon 850P which I owned but no longer have. I like the thought of just one high quality resistor in a super simple path. Again, the ARC preamps do enough else right to make them world class....one can dream.

So to close RLF, good luck with your search. The Ref5SE is a great preamp and depending on the other parts of your system, may not be the current weakest link. I you want to upgrade, I recommend at least considering the REF 40 used as compared to the Ref 6 but this will also depend on your personal position of buying used rather than through your dealer.

Harley - enjoy you Ref 10....its a great preamplifier and works great with the Ref 250's (I have not heard the SE versions but it sounds like you are happy with them). My love of what I consider to be a really special preamplifier should not in any way lessen your enjoyment. Cheers.

[Harlequin]

A most well considered post enatai, and please believe me when I say that for my part there are no wounds to salve or feelings that are bruised.

I more than recognise and admire a number of the sonic merits of the 40 that you speak so fondly of, for my part I have an slight preference for the smidgin of extra detail, resolution and decay that the 10 digs out of an recording, some instrumentation and voices benefitting IMHO by such.
At the end of the day were I not to have the 10 I would most certainly have an 40 and remain a contented man.

If I may inquire, did you compare the two models in the same system of ancillary equipment? Rather an important factor. Do you recall the number of hours on the Ref10 ? And finally did you run the 10 with screen On or Off ? The latter mode makes such a considerable difference to the quality of playback it is rather alarming !!!

[RLF]

enatai252

Thank you very much for your most helpful, candid, and thoughtful reply regarding your thoughts on these Audio Research preamps.

There is currently a used Reference 40 for sale, but I generally like to audition a product in my system before buying and furthermore feel more comfortable purchasing tubed gear new.

As a side note my dealer also carries Ayre and suggested that I might audition one of their preamps along with the ARC.

You are right, my preamp may not be the weakest link in my system and I am in no particular hurry in upgrading, but with the release of the Reference 6 and the favorable replies from those who have upgraded from the 5SE and also FWIW, the few recent positive reviews including that from Ken Kessler of HiFi News wetted my appetite for upgrading my 5SE.

Bob

[guitardave]

Just a quick note regarding circuit board material, I owned two Ref 5se's. The first had the beige board, the second had the green board with solder mask. The second was AT LEAST as good as the first, and really sounded the same. Did I have them both at the same time, no. But I have owned all the single box Ref preamps from ARC from Ref 2 up, and know the sound pretty well. There was definitely no loss with the green board, and I did appreciate that it would not be subject to oxidation and dust like the bare beige board would.

[RLF]

Originally Posted by guitardave

Just a quick note regarding circuit board material, I owned two Ref 5se's. The first had the beige board, the second had the green board with solder mask. The second was AT LEAST as good as the first, and really sounded the same. Did I have them both at the same time, no. But I have owned all the single box Ref preamps from ARC from Ref 2 up, and know the sound pretty well. There was definitely no loss with the green board, and I did appreciate that it would not be subject to oxidation and dust like the bare beige board would.

Interesting that your impression that both your Ref 5SEs sounded the same despite having the different boards. My Ref 5SE has the beige circuit board while my Ref 75SE has the green board. Like you, I appreciate that the green boards aren't subject to the elements.

BTW, didn't you go from the Ref 5SE to the Ref 6? If so, how do you like your Ref 6 in comparison to the Ref 5SE and in what ways?

Thanks.

[guitardave]

Yes, I have a Ref6 now. It is a serious step up from the 5se in every way. It is more detailed, yes, but it is so much more musical and nuanced also. It seems "faster". It is much more "of a piece" now and coherent, if that makes sense. The ARC preamps were always detailed, but now they also have newfound finesse. This is an area where Naim amps shine, but now ARC is at even better in that area.
In the basic audiophile areas, besides detail being ramped up considerably, the soundstaging and transparency are much better also. The bass is deeper and more articulate.
I frankly could not believe how much it is improved. I predict every review will end in a purchase.

[Harlequin]

Sounds like you are having a Grand time GD, and all without Teflon capacitors or hampered by the Green circuit board

Additional pair of 6h30's Aside, I would be most interested in more details regarding circuit and componant changes from the Ref5se.

[RLF]

Originally Posted by guitardave

Yes, I have a Ref6 now. It is a serious step up from the 5se in every way.
I frankly could not believe how much it is improved. I predict every review will end in a purchase.

Exciting I look forward to auditioning one in my system.

Originally Posted by Harlequin

Sounds like you are having a Grand time GD, and all without Teflon capacitors or hampered by the Green circuit board

Additional pair of 6h30's Aside, I would be most interested in more details regarding circuit and componant changes from the Ref5se.

I'll try not to let the omission of the Teflon capacitors or inclusion of green boards ruin my audition.

Perhaps the people at ARC might enlighten us regarding the details of the changes?

[triode12]

Hi All,
I have been following this thread since my last post started off this round of discussion - couldn't post as I was on holiday in Vanuatu.

I personally don't believe that there are any differences in SQ (bad or good) with regards to the use of the new green PCB boards. I don't think ARC would jeopardize their reputation like that.

I had on loan at my home, one channel of my dealers brand new Ref 250SE monos (with the newer green PCB) while one of my Ref 250 SE monos (older tan coloured board version) was being installed with carbon fibre heat shields that were inadvertently left out when my Ref 250s were upgraded to SE status.

I ran test tones through both units and measured the outputs via my Fluke RMS multimeter and they both measured within 0.050 mv of each other which according to my tech is negligible in real world terms. And they both sounded identical - I did swap them between the left and right channels to be sure.

What I can see though between the PCBs is that the green boards aren't as thick as the tan coloured boards. They have quite a bit of flex - I wouldn't push down too hard on when installing tubes on these new PCBs. And the newer VU/bias meters no longer have the Hoyt Electric branding and the black meter surround is slightly different in design - I suspect they are now of Chinese manufacture. The rear speaker binding posts are now shorter and have a cheaper looking glossy finish as opposed the older brushed copper finish of my older model. These changes all seem to point to cost cutting (but not cuts in SQ quality) in the newer products.

Hence, I believe there would be no difference in SQ from the new green PCB standpoint. The SQ differences would be down to the use of either the new proprietary hybrid ARC caps, the TRT stealth caps or the old proprietary Teflon caps.

Having said all that, I believe the difference in SQ between the 40th Anniversary and Ref 10 would be down to the different coupling caps used - i.e. ARC Teflon vs TRT Gold Stealth caps - since both look as though they have exactly the same PCB design (be it Tan or Green). I think we would be splitting hairs with regards to which one is better. i.e. they are pretty much equal in SQ.

And this would also mean that the Ref 6 cannot be better than the 40th Anniversary. Because if it is, then it would also be better than the Ref 10 which is highly unlikely.

[Alki]

IMHO a correct analysis. I have been of the opinion since the Ref 10 came out that the sound cannot be materially different from the Ref 40 because the innards are the same except for the caps.