C-2400 vs. C-2820

[nvp]

Lesnik, compared to the C-24xx units, the C-28xx pre-amps present music in a more relaxed way plus they are faster and more dynamic. Whether or not this will make a difference for your listening experience depends on the music styles you are listening. Nonetheless, if you can upgrade your C-2400 pre for a C-2820 for 6k, DO IT. It is a good investment for the future to say the least. However, to me this sounds to good to be true. Proceed with care if you are buying from abroad.

Regarding the DG-38 and DG-48 units, as I have reported before, in my room the difference between them was minimal. Both units get the job done. The DG-48 sounds a bit more transparent, but the DG-38 has improved the bass response and the stereo image in my room equally well. The big difference between the two is the set-up procedure. The DG-38 is difficult to set up as the manual is very unclear, whereas the DG-48 has an automatic procedure that yields decent results without any effort. Having said all this, I would recommend neither. I recently replaced my DG-48 unit with a Minidsp DDRC-22D unit running Dirac Live. This is a significantly cheaper solution that yields significantly better results.

[TommyC]

Originally Posted by nvp

Lesnik, compared to the C-24xx units, the C-28xx pre-amps present music in a more relaxed way plus they are faster and more dynamic. Whether or not this will make a difference for your listening experience depends on the music styles you are listening. Nonetheless, if you can upgrade your C-2400 pre for a C-2820 for 6k, DO IT. It is a good investment for the future to say the least. However, to me this sounds to good to be true. Proceed with care if you are buying from abroad.

Regarding the DG-38 and DG-48 units, as I have reported before, in my room the difference between them was minimal. Both units get the job done. The DG-48 sounds a bit more transparent, but the DG-38 has improved the bass response and the stereo image in my room equally well. The big difference between the two is the set-up procedure. The DG-38 is difficult to set up as the manual is very unclear, whereas the DG-48 has an automatic procedure that yields decent results without any effort. Having said all this, I would recommend neither. I recently replaced my DG-48 unit with a Minidsp DDRC-22D unit running Dirac Live. This is a significantly cheaper solution that yields significantly better results.

The Minidsp requires a PC for all the measurements and changes right?

I hope the 20K DG58 works better than the <1K DDRC-22D

[nvp]

Hi Tommy

Originally Posted by TommyC

The Minidsp requires a PC for all the measurements and changes right?

Yes, a computer is required. Plus, the measurements are more involved.

Originally Posted by TommyC

I hope the 20K DG58 works better than the <1K DDRC-22D

I doubt that.

My initial plan was to upgrade my DG-48 to a DG-58. I bought a DDRC-22D unit out of curiosity as I have heard very many good things about it. The DDRC-22D outclassed my DG-48 without any effort. I would still have considered the DG-58, but Mattia's reports here about DG-58 vs. DDRC-22D, and the limited number of digital inputs the DG-58 has, convinced me that buying a DG-58 would be a waste of money (and space in my system). Consequently, after claiming more than once here that the DG units should be mandatory to any reference system, a few weeks ago I have traded my DG-48 for an E-470 integrated.

[Mattia]

Here are my findings, after many months of using and comparing both the miniDSP 22D (with a beefy linear power supply upgrade) and the DG-58 in the same room and the same system:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/accup...tml#post738340


My simple conclusion, regarding the correction, is that the more neutral the speakers and room are, the more similar the result of the 2 EQ are, to the point that they could be essentially considered the same.

In more difficult situations, that require more complicated DSP manipulation, the 22D likely gives better results (for one it sports many measure points and can work with more material and a better picture of the situation). In these cases, the DG-58 tries to correct in the single point but sometimes this can lead to strange and unnatural results if you push it (I find in these situations it is better to simply correct in "smooth", that does not push to much the correction, and also set an EQ curve that mimic a bit the original response where the correction results a bit unnatural). Let's not forget Dirac was born to give acceptable results in difficult situations like cars or low-end speakers engineered to be used only with DSP aid. The DG-58 is probably engineered to only give the extra bit of quality in an already well corrected system, without too much manipulation needed/wanted.

With the DG-58 is easier to start, it does not need a computer, it uses only one measure and without much effort could give a somewhat good result in the right situation (see above). In any case, however, to be able to extract the most out of it, I think one should also use the manual EQ function, and that is a slow paced but very interesting and instructive process, and is a pleasure to do on the fly with the DG-58, simply by remote.


Right now I finally worked out the DG-58 voicing and EQ to the point that in my system the quality of correction is identical to the miniDSP one regarding correction, with all the added benefits that the DG-58 has to offer over the 22D*: DAC, ADC, no computer needed, absolute transparency, HS-link, unbalanced IN/OUTS, 30 presets, on the fly EQ, support for various output frequencies and, why not, Accuphase look and feel.

As for price difference, let's never forget that the "true" price of the DG-58 is not twenty times that of the miniDSP, but about six/seven times, and that I think is perfectly justified by all the extra features, usability and construction of the Accuphase unit.
My opinion is that if with other types of gear (e.g. preamplifiers or power amplifiers) the sound benefits are a bit more difficult to exactly spot, quantify and compare, and therefore I think maybe the subjective and pride of ownership play an important role in justifying the price without questioning or comparing it (absolutely nothing wrong with that!), with a less sexy, more technical and geeky gear like an active EQ one can more easily compare it to other gear and reach some more objective conclusions, so the "price" variable becomes more relevant.


* I know there are also the 22A and 22DA versions that provide ADC/DAC and DAC, I tried them all. Sadly I found them lacking regarding noise floor: both 22A and 22DA are somewhat noisy probably due to the cheap construction and zero internal shielding between the boards. Even upgrading the PSU to a much better one didn't solve the problem, so I think the problem is the lack of shielding in the analogue section of the output board. Also, you cannot have all three versions and capabilities in a single unit, like the DG-58. Also the fixed 96Khz output of the 22D is a bit of problem for me: I cannot use it with my DC-81L or DP-75, that support 48Khz maximum, and sometimes I like to play with older DACs

[nvp]

Mattia, I think it is best to move this discussion to the DG-58 thread. Lesnik, mentioned clearly that DG-48 (and thus also DG-58) does not fit his budget. This is why I have recommended him the minidsp ddrc-22d over the Accuphase DG units. (Please note that some of the things I have written in DG-58 thread in response to your report about DG-58 vs. DDRC-22D mirror closely what you have written above.)

Lesnik, IMO there are two important points for you:

1) If you listen to large orchestra and/or jazz big bands than it is certainly worth while to get the C-2820 pre. The C-28xx units convey dynamic variations in music much better than the C-24xx units. Your amps are powerful enough to show the dynamic capabilities of your large speakers. (What music are you listening Lesnik?)

2) Currently, there are quite a few room correction algorithms available. Many of them improve significantly the sound in one’s system. However, it is important to realise that all these algorithms (at least the ones that I know) are in incipient stages (e.g., we have two ears not one). IMO a lot of progress will be seen in this field in the coming years. The algorithms in the DG-38 and DG-48 units are effective but they are nowhere near the current state of the art. Therefore, I would no invest too much in the current room correction technology (especially if there are budget constrains).

In conclusion:

1) IMO, unlike the C-2400 and DG-38 which are more than 10 years old, the C-2820 will not be obsolete in the next 10-15 years.

2) The Minidsp DDRC-22D yields much better results than DG-38 unit, and it is also easier (for a newcomer) to set up. Setting up the minidsp unit takes a bit longer, but all steps are clearly explained in the manual. The DG-38 manual is very unclear.

[Mattia]

nvp

Yes, my answer was meant to be a follow up to you answer to TommyC.


As for Lesnik, at 6'000 Euro you can easily take the chance with the C-2820. If when directly comparing it to your C-2400, in your room, with your other gear and with your music, you find it doesn't provide a sufficiently big improvement, you can always resell it and lose very little money (maybe you could also gain something ).

With the miniDSP 22D for the price you really can not go wrong.

[Lesnik]

Thanks for all!
Meanwhile 2820 sold. I'm late.
Regarding dg-38 vs. miniDSP as far as I understand there is a not exactly the same functionality? Beside of room correction DG-38 is a powerful eq. Or I'm wrong?

[Lesnik]

Originally Posted by nvp

1) If you listen to large orchestra and/or jazz big bands than it is certainly worth while to get the C-2820 pre. The C-28xx units convey dynamic variations in music much better than the C-24xx units. Your amps are powerful enough to show the dynamic capabilities of your large speakers. (What music are you listening Lesnik?)

I'm listening very different kind of music. Jazz (prefer trios,quartets, vocal) new age, rock . Less classic. But 2820 being sold and currently I not see this model for this price.
May be to wait and make a jump to 3800 later. But one of the questions is how good is M1000 vs. for example 7x00 series. Now I can say I love the sound and power of M1000.