Audyssey MultEQ XT32 & setting up 4-Mirage BPS400 Subs (Issue) ...

[tigerhonaker]

AA,

1st I think it will be appropriate for me to make this statement to all of you.
I'm not a Professional tech. or Audyssey expert.

That being said here is going to be what I found after my newest set-up was completed running (The latest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction) program.

I just kept thinking that all 4-Mirage Subs were not actually putting out like they once had.
But I did not want to jump in and start screwing with the levels that the Audyssey program had set.
My thinking was as complex as the latest Audyssey program is what would make me be better at deciding how the SPL settings should be set.
So I kept my fingers off changing/altering any of those settings.
But in the back of my mind I just kept thinking to myself something just does not seem right with the overall bass.
It just did not have that awesome Body Jarring Thump as I had felt before.
And that was not listening to the latest Blu-Ray movies with the new Audio programs.
(Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio)

OK I finally one day just decided to jump in and see for myself once and for all what exactly were the 4-Mirage BPS 400 Subs doing.

I got out my Ole trusty Radio Shack SPL Meter and installed a new battery.

Went into the Integra DHC 80.3 set-up and turned on the Sub-1 test audio.
In my case I have 2-Subs for Sub-1 output.
I go up to the Left Mirage and listen to it.
Go over to the Right Mirage and listen to it.

Instantly I now knew why there was not the Earth Shaking Thumping I once had felt from the 4-Mirage Subs.

To shorten this post a bit it turns out that the Left Front Sub as well as the Rear Bottom Sub that the Audyssey program set were fine.

But, the Front Right Sub and the Rear Top Sub were on but barely producing anywhere close to the other two Subs in SPL output.

So what I did was the following to get all 4- Mirage Subs to the exact same SPL output.

Right or Wrong my thinking was that Audyssey did set the correct Sound-Level for the 2-Subs that were working.
(Left Front & Bottom Right)

I say that because there was Bass and a lot of it from those 2-Subs.
(They were exactly the same SPL readings.)

But it was not as I said above, the just Body Pounding Thump one should be feeling on the right Blu-Ray movie playing.
(With Audio Cranked way up)

(1) I took a reading, (Actually many-many readings) of the Front Sub with the right one UN-plugged.

(2) Then UN-plugged the left Sub and adjusted the right Sub to exactly the SPL output the left Sub was producing.

(3) Me being as Anal Retentive as I am, (an I am) I did this many-many times to get them to match as exact as possible.
(Believe me they were really-really close)

(4) I did the same thing then with the rear Subs.

(5) Then once I was satisfied that the 4-Mirage BPS 400 Subs SPL levels matched.

I then took the SPL readings from the Front two (2) and back two ( 2) and they matched exactly on the SPL Meter.

I might mention that this was not a quick process at all.
I took time to do this as exact as possible and that takes time & patience.

Once this was all completed I then loaded up several New Blu-Ray movies with (Heavy Bass) content in their Action Scenes.

The Bass now was just this Chest Punching freaking awesome feeling and sound.
Seriously when you crank-up the Audio to like Plus 75 and have Four (4) of these Mirage BPS 400 Subs I promise you that you are now right there in that movie.
They are doing their thing and doing it right as they possibly can.

I would like to say to you that I did this post talking about the four Mirage subs.

I am of the (Opinion) that if any of you are running four subs. you might find out the exact same thing I did.

That Audyssey only sets one of the two subs up front as well as the two in back.

Might be worth checking out and that is why I did this Thread is to (Alert) you of this.

If this was a certain other very large Audio/Video INTERNET Site I am also a member of I would not have even Posted this Thread.

Why???

Because the experts would have more than likely wanted me to Scientifically prove that what I found out was Fact.

And then tell me all about how Audyssey MultEQ XT32 was much more capable than me as an individual to make those Subwoofers SPL level adjustments.

That being said I chose to Post it here on AA as information and not to get into some drawn out never ending debate on how Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is perfect.

Below are some pictures I did to show what took place in my HT (Home Theater).

This is the Radio Shack SPL meter I used.

[LordoftheRingsEE]

-- Terry, are you using the Audyssey MultEQ Pro version with the kit (more accurately calibrated microphone and boom), and with your laptop? ...From your DHC-80.3 pre/pro.

I agree; it takes patience, dedication, time, to do a "performing" good job with your particular setup (in particular with your four subs). Most people don't; in a setup like yours they hire a certified Audyssey pro audio calibrator. I probably would myself, even if I feel well 'calibrated' already, in that core. ...I could use some more learning experience from a physical pro at work in front of me.

AVS Forum is the best place for everything Audyssey Setup. But I'm sure you already knew that. ...Even without Chris now. ...You got Keith, Marcus, Jeff, Mark, and a bunch more members who are truly into this; Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and all that measuring jazz with classical facts and blues performance.

[JJinID]

Terry - Bob asks a great question about if you are using the PRO version or the normal 8 position Audyssey XT32. If it is the latter, XT32 allows for calibration of up to but not more than two subs in two different locations and adjusts the phase and distance for each of them separately, then adjusts the level and performs equalization for both subs acting as one output for LFE and redirected bass. If you are using 4 subs (splitting the two outputs with a y-cable if I am following you correctly), then I don't expect that would work nearly as effectively because phase and distance for the extra subs won't be as correct/precise when combined that way. I am not at all surprised that you are achieving better results by setting the volumes manually, but again you would need to compensate for distance and phase manually potentially as well to achieve the best results.

I know I have read about ways to compensate/work around this two sub limitation using four subs on AVS Forum. As Bob suggests, you should be able to find the advice you are looking for there, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone here on AA has successfully dealt with this before as well.

[tigerhonaker]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE

-- Terry, are you using the Audyssey MultEQ Pro version with the kit (more accurately calibrated microphone and boom), and with your laptop? ...From your DHC-80.3 pre/pro.

I agree; it takes patience, dedication, time, to do a "performing" good job with your particular setup (in particular with your four subs). Most people don't; in a setup like yours they hire a certified Audyssey pro audio calibrator. I probably would myself, even if I feel well 'calibrated' already, in that core. ...I could use some more learning experience from a physical pro at work in front of me.

AVS Forum is the best place for everything Audyssey Setup. But I'm sure you already knew that. ...Even without Chris now. ...You got Keith, Marcus, Jeff, Mark, and a bunch more members who are truly into this; Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and all that measuring jazz with classical facts and blues performance.

Bob .....

Your right I am very aware of AVS.
I have been a member on it for many years now.

When this was set up by the Audio/Video Dealer they used the Mic stand and Mic that comes with the Integra DHC 80.3 Pre-Amp Processor.
That is where you move the Mic to like 7 different positions etc.
So all that was done by them in the beginning.

What I am referring to above is that the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 program for whatever reason does not set the two (2) front Subs exactly the same with the SPL.
Nor the rear two (2) subs.

And I am saying it is not even close.

That is why I went in and set the two other subs exactly like what the Audyssey program set.

Now all four (4) Mirage BPS 400 subs SPL levels are identical.

I'm certainly not any sort of Pro at this and don't claim to be.
But I can share with you that the difference between the Bass output (Before) and (Now) is worlds apart.

Now on Action Movies it will just simply Blow-You-Away as it should.

I'm very {Surprised} that there was so little interest in this Thread from AA members.

I would have thought there would be more members running four (4 subs in their HT (Home Theater) set-ups.

And that being the case if they were running the newest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 program I am thinking they would find out just what I did if they checked the SPL Bass coming from each subwoofer.

[tigerhonaker]

Originally Posted by JJinID

Terry - Bob asks a great question about if you are using the PRO version or the normal 8 position Audyssey XT32. If it is the latter, XT32 allows for calibration of up to but not more than two subs in two different locations and adjusts the phase and distance for each of them separately, then adjusts the level and performs equalization for both subs acting as one output for LFE and redirected bass. If you are using 4 subs (splitting the two outputs with a y-cable if I am following you correctly), then I don't expect that would work nearly as effectively because phase and distance for the extra subs won't be as correct/precise when combined that way. I am not at all surprised that you are achieving better results by setting the volumes manually, but again you would need to compensate for distance and phase manually potentially as well to achieve the best results.

I know I have read about ways to compensate/work around this two sub limitation using four subs on AVS Forum. As Bob suggests, you should be able to find the advice you are looking for there, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone here on AA has successfully dealt with this before as well.

You are right on target with what you are saying.
They, (Hi-Tech Innovations) used the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 that comes with the Integra DHC 80.3.
I don't recall now if it was 7 or 8 positions for the positions of the Mic. placements.

Luckily for me the distance for the subs is the same for the front two as well as the stacked back two.

Once I took the time to go through the process and I can tell you it was in hours to get it all exactly correct.
It now delivers Bass as one would expect from four Mirage BPS 400 Subs.

I'm totally satisfied with the system now.

I'm just glad I finally made the decision to actually take the necessary time and put forth the effort to get things right.

Took a lot of Time & Patience but the end result is certainly worth it.

[bart]

Thanks for sharing Terry!

[LordoftheRingsEE]

Originally Posted by JJinID

Terry - Bob asks a great question about if you are using the PRO version or the normal 8 position Audyssey XT32. If it is the latter, XT32 allows for calibration of up to but not more than two subs in two different locations and adjusts the phase and distance for each of them separately, then adjusts the level and performs equalization for both subs acting as one output for LFE and redirected bass. If you are using 4 subs (splitting the two outputs with a y-cable if I am following you correctly), then I don't expect that would work nearly as effectively because phase and distance for the extra subs won't be as correct/precise when combined that way.

Regarding the navy blue emphasis above:

I believe that Terry is indeed using two "Y" adaptors. ...Because his BPS-400 bi-polar subs don't have a RCA Out jack for connecting directly to another sub.

BTW, the BPS-400s are truly DYNAMITE for WOOFING that LFE channel. ...One of the best! ..With two 12" drivers in each sub, and 1,600 watts peak power (per each sub). ...Sealed enclosure, PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) MOSFET amplification. ...110 pounds each (times 4 = 440 pounds of solid foundation).

I am not at all surprised that you are achieving better results by setting the volumes manually, but again you would need to compensate for distance and phase manually potentially as well to achieve the best results.

Regarding the red underlined emphasis above:

1. Distance: I don't change what Audyssey set them automatically at.
And best is to have your multiple subs at the same distance from you, the main listener, I truly think. ...Helps a lot for proper time arrivals, from all subs.
Also, Audyssey is more accurate than you to do manually, I think again. Because it takes into consideration the sub's electronic crossovers, and the true distance is always from the voice coil of the sub's driver, and not from the outer box enclosure (that'll add another 4 to 6" depending of the sub's design)

2. Phase: In Terry's own particular setup, I truly believe that the phase of all his four subs should be set at the same position (from the subs themselves, on their rear panels), manually, of course. Then let Audyssey perform its trick(s) automatically, afterwards.

BTW, I contributed to the Audyssey Setup Guide, regarding the Phase of multiple subs.

I know I have read about ways to compensate/work around this two sub limitation using four subs on AVS Forum. As Bob suggests, you should be able to find the advice you are looking for there, although it wouldn't surprise me if someone here on AA has successfully dealt with this before as well.

Kal (Rubinson) is pretty good with Audyssey MultEQ Pro related matters.
Kal is of course a member here.

Originally Posted by tigerhonaker

Bob .....

Your right I am very aware of AVS.
I have been a member on it for many years now.

That much, I knew.

When this was set up by the Audio/Video Dealer they used the Mic stand and Mic that comes with the Integra DHC 80.3 Pre-Amp Processor.
That is where you move the Mic to like 7 different positions etc.
So all that was done by them in the beginning.

They simply used the 'normal' small plastic pyramid type mic that came with your pre/pro.
And, 8 positions is the maximum allowed. And, I recommend that all the 8 mic position measurements are used.
{Mic boom & stand, not a camera tripod.}

What I am referring to above is that the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 program for whatever reason does not set the two (2) front Subs exactly the same with the SPL.
Nor the rear two (2) subs.

The sub's balance levels (all four of them; like you did with the SPL meter) should be done first manually. This right there demands time and patience. ..Because after you finished to manually calibrate the exact same Gain balance from them four (one by one), now you have to balance all four of them being turn on with your other main channel speakers. ...See what I mean. Because one sub by itself would have to be down roughly 9dBs in relation to your mains. Then all four subs together will regain back the dBs to fe in perfect balance with one of your main channels (front Left or Right).

And I am saying it is not even close.

That is why I went in and set the two other subs exactly like what the Audyssey program set.

Nowall four (4) Mirage BPS 400 subs SPL levels are identical.

I'm certainly not any sort of Pro at this and don't claim to be.
But I can share with you that the difference between the Bass output (Before) and (Now) is worlds apart.

Now on Action Movies it will just simply Blow-You-Away as it should.

Sounds like you did a good job Terry.

I'm very {Surprised} that there was so little interest in this Thread from AA members.

Because you're one of the very few who brought it on the table (more elaborated, in details).

I would have thought there would be more members running four (4 subs in their HT (Home Theater) set-ups.

I'm sure there are Terry; they just don't say.

And that being the case if they were running the newest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 program I am thinking they would find out just what I did if they checked the SPL Bass coming from each subwoofer.

...And the Audyssey MultEQ PRO version has even more 'texture', more diversification in its more advanced capabilities: better calibrated mic specially for your unit, with closer tolerances, and with the right stand + boom, graphs from a laptop, and the choice of your preferred 'curves' with some control over them; plus up to 32 mic positioning measurements, and great too to see exactly what's going on with your multiple subs, and all of that in conjunction with XT32 and all the FIR filter's advantage (over 10,000 of them).

* Kal (Rubinson) is more 'calibrated' than I on Audyssey MultEQ Pro calibration version.
He even has a review of the Integra DHC-80.2 pre/pro in his 'Music In The Round' column of Stereophile (Vol.34 Nos.7 & 9), and available online.

[tigerhonaker]

Originally Posted by bart

Thanks for sharing Terry!

Glad I took the time to Post this here on AA.

Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE

Regarding the navy blue emphasis above:

I believe that Terry is indeed using two "Y" adaptors. ...Because his BPS-400 bi-polar subs don't have a RCA Out jack for connecting directly to another sub.

BTW, the BPS-400s are truly DYNAMITE for WOOFING that LFE channel. ...One of the best! ..With two 12" drivers in each sub, and 1,600 watts peak power (per each sub). ...Sealed enclosure, PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) MOSFET amplification. ...110 pounds each (times 4 = 440 pounds of solid foundation).



Regarding the red underlined emphasis above:

1. Distance: I don't change what Audyssey set them automatically at.
And best is to have your multiple subs at the same distance from you, the main listener, I truly think. ...Helps a lot for proper time arrivals, from all subs.
Also, Audyssey is more accurate than you to do manually, I think again. Because it takes into consideration the sub's electronic crossovers, and the true distance is always from the voice coil of the sub's driver, and not from the outer box enclosure (that'll add another 4 to 6" depending of the sub's design)

2. Phase: In Terry's own particular setup, I truly believe that the phase of all his four subs should be set at the same position (from the subs themselves, on their rear panels), manually, of course. Then let Audyssey perform its trick(s) automatically, afterwards.

BTW, I contributed to the Audyssey Setup Guide, regarding the Phase of multiple subs.



Kal (Rubinson) is pretty good with Audyssey MultEQ Pro related matters.
Kal is of course a member here.



That much, I knew.



They simply used the 'normal' small plastic pyramid type mic that came with your pre/pro.
And, 8 positions is the maximum allowed. And, I recommend that all the 8 mic position measurements are used.
{Mic boom & stand, not a camera tripod.}



The sub's balance levels (all four of them; like you did with the SPL meter) should be done first manually. This right there demands time and patience. ..Because after you finished to manually calibrate the exact same Gain balance from them four (one by one), now you have to balance all four of them being turn on with your other main channel speakers. ...See what I mean. Because one sub by itself would have to be down roughly 9dBs in relation to your mains. Then all four subs together will regain back the dBs to fe in perfect balance with one of your main channels (front Left or Right).



Sounds like you did a good job Terry.



Because you're one of the very few who brought it on the table (more elaborated, in details).



I'm sure there are Terry; they just don't say.



...And the Audyssey MultEQ PRO version has even more 'texture', more diversification in its more advanced capabilities: better calibrated mic specially for your unit, with closer tolerances, and with the right stand + boom, graphs from a laptop, and the choice of your preferred 'curves' with some control over them; plus up to 32 mic positioning measurements, and great too to see exactly what's going on with your multiple subs, and all of that in conjunction with XT32 and all the FIR filter's advantage (over 10,000 of them).

* Kal (Rubinson) is more 'calibrated' than I on Audyssey MultEQ Pro calibration version.
He even has a review of the Integra DHC-80.2 pre/pro in his 'Music In The Round' column of Stereophile (Vol.34 Nos.7 & 9), and available online.

Bob .....

I did read what Kal said in that review.

They did use the proper Mic and Tripod to run the Audyssey.
(Not a camera stand)

Honestly I put off doing what I did way to long.
I knew something was not really right with the four Subs.
Heck I have had them now for years.
And I know what to expect from them.

I guess I just did not want to get into the Time Comsuming ordeal of making them exactly right.
I knew in my mind what it was going to take and just kept putting it off.

I will say though once I did make up my mind to make the necessary changes.
I was then willing to spend as many hours as it took to put things as perfect as possible.

And they are as exact as it is possible to put them.

They are so Awesome listening to Blu-Ray movies now.

You not only hear the Bass you actually feel it in your body and that Buddy is so very Bad-Ass.

Last thought.

Like a guy said to me regarding what is right in the sound of my system or anyone elses.
It makes No-Difference what program like Audyssey or what a Company sets your system up for sound.

The actual (Bottom-Line) is when it sounds right to you then it is finally right.

I-Agree and now mine is like that finally.

[LordoftheRingsEE]

-- Terry, are you aware of the Compensation Chart for the Radio Shack SPL meter? ...Particularly in the lower regions of the audio spectrum, like the bass from 10Hz to 200Hz.

...Because of its mic's inaccuracy in the three lower octaves or so.

You must be; if not just google it. Here's one: http://www.hometheatrebasics.com/hom...rection-chart/

[tigerhonaker]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRingsEE

-- Terry, are you aware of the Compensation Chart for the Radio Shack SPL meter? ...Particularly in the lower regions of the audio spectrum, like the bass from 10Hz to 200Hz.

...Because of its mic's inaccuracy in the three lower octaves or so.

You must be; if not just google it. Here's one: Radio Shack Meter Correction Chart

Thanks Bob .....

I'm good to go on this end.