ELIPSA SE for a "smallish" room

[antipop]

Originally Posted by esteban

Thank you, Georges. So you connect your amp and the rest of the gear to your P5 without any adverse effects? When I tried this with my PS Audio Duet I did not like the result. I found the amp breathed much better when it was connected straight to the wall. Then again, the P5 is a much better unit than the Duet.

You mentioned a positive impact on the bass output, but would you say you sacrificed anything else in the process?

Everything is connected to the P5 with great impact on the sound. Despite having class A monoblocks, I still have 50% headroom with the P5. A P10 would take you even further than that.

The cleaner bass has actually a positive effect on the rest of the spectrum so I gained in precision, microdetails, ... I can't see any sacrifice doing this.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by esteban

Thanks, Bill! Last night things were a lot better again. I do really think it may be an issue with the electric supply in the building. Peak hours, summer, non-stop use of the AC, etc... All those things that you miss about FL and that I (being a Winter person) hate! Of course, I am still experimenting with the placement of the speakers and won't give up easily.

One thing that seems to remain consistent, though: I find myself listening at lower than usual (for me) levels and finding this really satisfactory... I wonder if this is due to a lack of peak amplification power to drive the Elipsas properly, which means that as the volume goes up distortion is too high to ignore, or simply to the limitations of the small room interacting with a much bigger speaker than I had before, or both...

I wish somebody had measured the impedance curve of this model so that we could reference that. John Atkinson did measure the original Elipsa, and mentioned that there is an amp-punishing dip in the lower octaves that will suck gobs of current, but who knows if that is still the case with the SE model...

Or maybe I am just simply too tired after listening almost non-stop for the last 2 weeks.

Esteban as long as you do things in the right order so you can actually solve issues you'll be fine. What you don't want to do is throw things at the wall to see what sticks. You need to understand what is actually happening when a change is made.

First you are correct about the larger (more extended actually) speaker's interaction with the room. It becomes more critical to get the speaker positioned correctly. This is key to assessing the other issues.

I would leave the AC until after you have addressed placement. When you do start with Power Cords and proceed to isolation/conditioning. In fact, you may want to remove all the PS now just to see what you have as a raw AC line. Depending on what you get, leave it out while you go back and recheck position.

I suspect you may end up wanting more power but until the speaker is properly sited you will not know. Elipsa and SE both require more to drive them than their simple sensitivity number would indicate. The impedance curve for SE in the critical range you mentioned should be almost identical to the Elipsa. It certainly won't be worse. This BTW is why a system should always be balanced, not a product of synergy.

All that listening is a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

[esteban]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

Esteban as long as you do things in the right order so you can actually solve issues you'll be fine. What you don't want to do is throw things at the wall to see what sticks. You need to understand what is actually happening when a change is made.

First you are correct about the larger (more extended actually) speaker's interaction with the room. It becomes more critical to get the speaker positioned correctly. This is key to assessing the other issues.

I would leave the AC until after you have addressed placement. When you do start with Power Cords and proceed to isolation/conditioning. In fact, you may want to remove all the PS now just to see what you have as a raw AC line. Depending on what you get, leave it out while you go back and recheck position.

I suspect you may end up wanting more power but until the speaker is properly sited you will not know. Elipsa and SE both require more to drive them than their simple sensitivity number would indicate. The impedance curve for SE in the critical range you mentioned should be almost identical to the Elipsa. It certainly won't be worse. This BTW is why a system should always be balanced, not a product of synergy.

All that listening is a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

Bill, always the voice of reason!

Today I experimented with a couple of new placements. Speakers are now two inches further from the wall behind them and also an extra inch from each other (in the horizontal plane). Things seem a little smoother overall. I wouldn't call the Elipsa "overly revealing" (a good thing in my book), but the more I experiment with placement and the more I listen to all sorts of music styles and recordings, the more I end up pointing the finger at, and finding fault with, the recording of a given album itself. You can tweak things all you want, but a bad recording will still be a bad recording.

Some albums sound astounding (usually those with an audiophile pedigree) with TIGHT, deep, controlled bass and energetic, velvety highs that do not fatigue. The Elipsa excels with jazz, vocals and classical. No surprises there. And even with bombastic and grandiose works. I love Wagner, Mahler, Langaard, Grieg and Penderecki, so I'm in luck. I am also amazed at how realistically the sound of cymbals and percussion in general (and kick-drums in particular) are handled by this speaker. Eerily so!

Then I listen to something like Mogway, Iced Earth, Dream Theater or Paradise Lost and, yes, bass is all over the place, highs are piercing and instrument separation is simply lackluster. Is it a room/speaker issue? Or the speaker simply and mercilessly reproducing what's actually in the recording, something that perhaps I wasn't used to before? Probably a little bit of both.

Unfortunately, I do listen to a lot of heavy metal and progressive rock, and artists such as those mentioned above, but I suppose those are albums not meant for a "hi-end" system and better enjoyed in the car...

Yes, tough job, but I'm enjoying it!

[jdandy]

Esteban.......It is a fact that the better your sound system becomes the more apparent are the flaws one hears in poorly recorded and engineered albums. What I have discovered through the years is you have to develop an ability to detach yourself from the critical state of mind and enjoy the lower quality albums only for the music and not the quality of the recording. Otherwise you will avoid these recordings like the plague even when you like the artists and their music. Sometimes it is very difficult to do because some recordings are so atrocious. The bottom line is you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear no matter how many times you adjust speaker position or swap amplifiers. Poor recordings will be revealed for all their inglorious attributes on good sound systems. That's just part of the fun.

Dialing in the speaker locations for the best bass frequency loading of the room at your listening position will get you close to optimum. Then work on distance between the speakers for accurate sound stage. Follow that with rake angle to focus the upper midrange and top end at your listening position. I'm sure you remember much of what Bill did while setting up the Toy's. Once this has been achieved your impressions about recordings will become dependent on the recording quality and production, not your system.

Bill mentioned one thing that should guide your future purchases, that being the possibility of more power. The impedance curve and phase angle in the lower frequency range can be demanding on a power amplifier's ability to delivery current, especially peak current for demanding musical moments. There really is no substitution for additional power to deliver the best results and my experience with Sonus faber speakers bears that out. I have owned the Cremona Auditor's, the Guarneri Memento's, and now the Amati Anniversario speakers. The lowest power I used on any of the speakers was 75 watts per channel (MC275 MkV) but when I moved to an MC452, then MC601's, then MC2301's the speakers truly hit their stride and stepped into the spotlight.

There is also a lot to be said for the number of hours on the drivers. My Anniversairo's didn't truly find their permanent voice until after 300+ hours. There is no way to rush speaker break-in. You just have to let the music flow and keep the drivers moving. I have no doubt the true sonic qualities of your new Elipsa SE speakers have yet to be fully realized. It is a journey. Just relax into it, go with the flow, dial the Elipsa SE's into the room for best bass loading, then sound stage and you will be righteously rewarded.

[larevoj]

IMO a Torus + Good PC + HiFI Tuning fuses to all your electronics will help with the issues you mentioned.

[esteban]

Some interesting news to report.

I've had my Prima Luna amp for 5+ years, and this was my first integrated amplifier with an "audiophile pedigree", so to speak. In many ways I "forgot" what solid-state amps sound like, nor did I ever actually heard one in my own system before. I never had the urge to find out, in all honesty, since I've always been very happy with the Prima Luna. However, since I bought the Elipsa SE's, as described on these pages, I feel that the lower registries could use a tighter grip. Those 10" woofers are surely not easy to tame. Since the Prima Luna outputs about 40 WPC with KT-88's, I was also concerned about possibly underpowering the speakers during complex passages and at semi loud volume levels, even though I have yet to hear any traces of clipping. Could a quality solid-state integrated do the trick and be my answer?

My dealer was kind enough to loan me two different choices: a McIntosh MA6300 and a Hegel H160.

I do need a home theater pass-through, so the McIntosh would not really be a model I would choose myself, but at least I could get a feel for what the brand has to offer, and, of course, we all know that Sonus faber and McIntosh usually are a marriage made in heaven. The MA6300 outputs 150 WPC into 4 ohms.

As for the Hegel, I heard nothing but glowing reviews. It offers the home theater pass-through, as well as a built-in DAC, and TONS of power (240 WPC into 4 ohms). I was curious.

I'll cut straight to the chase:

I would take the Prima Luna any day.

The McIntosh was actually a little disappointing, to be perfectly honest. The sound was grey and lifeless, and the harmonic richness and tone color that they are so famous for was simply not there. Yes, bass was definitely better controlled, but at the expense of... well, pretty much everything else! I was puzzled. Construction-wise, the MA6300 is not really anything out of the ordinary, and it felt a little flimsy, quite frankly. My Prima Luna has much better binding posts and RCA terminals, for example. It also weighs about twice as much! Granted, this particular model is the one that lacks the autoformers, so I am fully aware that it by no means is the best option to formulate an opinion on the McIntosh sound. However, the amp did come in extremely handy for one specific purpose (another reason why I wanted to try it at home): I could now use the Mc's iconic front display meters to finally get a clear idea of how many watts I use at normal listening volumes.

The needles barely moved above 1 watt! In fact, by the time they were flirting with 10 watts the volume level was already too loud for my tastes, and if I kept going further up it was REALLY LOUD and I was still hovering around 10 watts. I never, EVER went past that mark. Strangely enough, in fact, I had to raise the volume knob past 50% to achieve a decent volume level, but things got very loud very quickly after that, whereas with my Prima Luna I am normally at the 25 or 30% mark most of the times. I almost never listen at 50%.

The real surprise here was the Hegel. What a steal this thing is for the money! It sounded more robust, more energetic and more colorful than the McIntosh, with slightly better grip and articulation on the lower notes, if a tad too pronounced in the bass with highs that were very smooth and not overly detailed (which I like) and felt a lot more solid, built-wise, overall. For $3500 list (although it can be had for less, of course), this thing offers all the power one could possibly need, has a built-in DAC, and sounds really nice. A bargain if you like solid state. My Prima Luna had a more vibrant tone, better texture and a wider soundstage overall, but I was still impressed with the Hegel, which did have better bass grip. I'm sure the Hegel would sound even better with more hours on its back, and I can only begin to imagine how great the upcoming H360 will probably be.

This was a truly eye-opener for me, and I was grateful and happy to have the chance to conduct the experiment at home. In short, the 38 WPC of the Prima Luna seem to be enough for 99% of my listening. I suppose the slight lack of a firm hand in the bass I have been describing earlier in this thread is a consequence of the tube amp sounding like a tube amp, and not, after all, of lack of power and headroom. At least, that is the impression I got. Yes, both solid state models had a firmer grip and kept things more organized in the lower registries, but the difference, amazingly enough, was not night and day. I have to give credit to the Prima Luna's overbuilt transformers.

I loved my Prima Luna before, and my respect and admiration for the DiaLogue One has only increased after this weekend. I am thinking of simply upgrading to its newer cousin, the DiaLogue Premium HP, then. It offers a ton of refinements, twice the power (and THAT should MOST DEFINITELY be more than plenty of headroom for my room and volume levels) and the price is more than reasonable. Plus, it's the better looking unit.

I'll keep you posted.

[metaphacts]

Originally Posted by esteban

I loved my Prima Luna before, and my respect and admiration for the DiaLogue One has only increased after this weekend. I am thinking of simply upgrading to its newer cousin, the DiaLogue Premium HP, then. It offers a ton of refinements, twice the power (and THAT should MOST DEFINITELY be more than plenty of headroom for my room and volume levels) and the price is more than reasonable. Plus, it's the better looking unit.

I'll keep you posted.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by metaphacts

+1

[bart]

Wonderful and very valuable description of your experience Esteban! indeed.

I've been a solid state guy so far, but when I heard good tube amps in my system, I was completely sold.
I agree with the members on this forum that not (always) the quantity of Watts counts, but the quality.
The tube amps I'm buying, even have a firmer grip on my woofers than my Burmester.

[ariess]

Originally Posted by esteban

Some interesting news to report.

I've had my Prima Luna amp for 5+ years, and this was my first integrated amplifier with an "audiophile pedigree", so to speak. In many ways I "forgot" what solid-state amps sound like, nor did I ever actually heard one in my own system before. I never had the urge to find out, in all honesty, since I've always been very happy with the Prima Luna. However, since I bought the Elipsa SE's, as described on these pages, I feel that the lower registries could use a tighter grip. Those 10" woofers are surely not easy to tame. Since the Prima Luna outputs about 40 WPC with KT-88's, I was also concerned about possibly underpowering the speakers during complex passages and at semi loud volume levels, even though I have yet to hear any traces of clipping. Could a quality solid-state integrated do the trick and be my answer?

My dealer was kind enough to loan me two different choices: a McIntosh MA6300 and a Hegel H160.

I do need a home theater pass-through, so the McIntosh would not really be a model I would choose myself, but at least I could get a feel for what the brand has to offer, and, of course, we all know that Sonus faber and McIntosh usually are a marriage made in heaven. The MA6300 outputs 150 WPC into 4 ohms.

As for the Hegel, I heard nothing but glowing reviews. It offers the home theater pass-through, as well as a built-in DAC, and TONS of power (240 WPC into 4 ohms). I was curious.

I'll cut straight to the chase:

I would take the Prima Luna any day.

The McIntosh was actually a little disappointing, to be perfectly honest. The sound was grey and lifeless, and the harmonic richness and tone color that they are so famous for was simply not there. Yes, bass was definitely better controlled, but at the expense of... well, pretty much everything else! I was puzzled. Construction-wise, the MA6300 is not really anything out of the ordinary, and it felt a little flimsy, quite frankly. My Prima Luna has much better binding posts and RCA terminals, for example. It also weighs about twice as much! Granted, this particular model is the one that lacks the autoformers, so I am fully aware that it by no means is the best option to formulate an opinion on the McIntosh sound. However, the amp did come in extremely handy for one specific purpose (another reason why I wanted to try it at home): I could now use the Mc's iconic front display meters to finally get a clear idea of how many watts I use at normal listening volumes.

The needles barely moved above 1 watt! In fact, by the time they were flirting with 10 watts the volume level was already too loud for my tastes, and if I kept going further up it was REALLY LOUD and I was still hovering around 10 watts. I never, EVER went past that mark. Strangely enough, in fact, I had to raise the volume knob past 50% to achieve a decent volume level, but things got very loud very quickly after that, whereas with my Prima Luna I am normally at the 25 or 30% mark most of the times. I almost never listen at 50%.

The real surprise here was the Hegel. What a steal this thing is for the money! It sounded more robust, more energetic and more colorful than the McIntosh, with slightly better grip and articulation on the lower notes, if a tad too pronounced in the bass with highs that were very smooth and not overly detailed (which I like) and felt a lot more solid, built-wise, overall. For $3500 list (although it can be had for less, of course), this thing offers all the power one could possibly need, has a built-in DAC, and sounds really nice. A bargain if you like solid state. My Prima Luna had a more vibrant tone, better texture and a wider soundstage overall, but I was still impressed with the Hegel, which did have better bass grip. I'm sure the Hegel would sound even better with more hours on its back, and I can only begin to imagine how great the upcoming H360 will probably be.

This was a truly eye-opener for me, and I was grateful and happy to have the chance to conduct the experiment at home. In short, the 38 WPC of the Prima Luna seem to be enough for 99% of my listening. I suppose the slight lack of a firm hand in the bass I have been describing earlier in this thread is a consequence of the tube amp sounding like a tube amp, and not, after all, of lack of power and headroom. At least, that is the impression I got. Yes, both solid state models had a firmer grip and kept things more organized in the lower registries, but the difference, amazingly enough, was not night and day. I have to give credit to the Prima Luna's overbuilt transformers.

I loved my Prima Luna before, and my respect and admiration for the DiaLogue One has only increased after this weekend. I am thinking of simply upgrading to its newer cousin, the DiaLogue Premium HP, then. It offers a ton of refinements, twice the power (and THAT should MOST DEFINITELY be more than plenty of headroom for my room and volume levels) and the price is more than reasonable. Plus, it's the better looking unit.

I'll keep you posted.

Have you thought about Audio Research?

The VSi60 is the deal. Or the VSi75 if you can swing it.