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  #1  
Old 05-18-2013, 03:28 AM
mgbaron mgbaron is offline
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Default 2x MC-402 vs. Monoblocks

This is a question regarding the long term "road map" for my system. Assuming power hungry speakers at some point down the road, and the fact that I own a McIntosh MC-402 which can also be configured in in parallel/mono at 800 watts, would adding a second MC-402 in this configuration be more effective than upgrading to true monoblocks (say for instance MC-601s)? Are there any disadvantages of this setup versus true monoblocks?

Price/watt and logistics wise it seems to make more sense considering these rough used prices:

MC-402 --> $3000-4000 each
MC-501 --> ~$6000
MC-601 --> ~$8000 (?)

So basically, for similar cost, either configuration is possible, with the 2x MC-402 configuration taking the power crown and having the additional benefit of not having to sell gear.

What else should be considered? One thing that I noticed is that the parallel configuration for the MC-402 only supports 1, 2, and 4ohm loads versus a true MC monoblock which supports 8 as well which would limit speaker options.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:15 AM
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GaryProtein GaryProtein is offline
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Are you sure the MC402 can be run in parallel mono?

Not all MC amps can be run bridged.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryProtein View Post
Are you sure the MC402 can be run in parallel mono?

Not all MC amps can be run bridged.
I think he has it right, the MC402 has a parallel mono option but not "bridged" mono. I always found it curious that it had no 8 ohm mono power rating, I questioned this a number of times and the answer I got was that it had to do with the mono parallel configuration.

It appears mgbaron is aware of this limitation; I had considered upgrading my MC252 that I had at the time to an MC402 as a subwoofer amp but I ultimately shied away due to the mono parallel/impedance limitation. It my view this was a shortcoming to the MC402.

Pete
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Main System: VPI Prime Signature TT in Rosewood, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Stillpoints LP1 V2, McIntosh: MP100, MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MS750 Music Server, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12 on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter, Add-Powr Wizard EM Field AC Line conditioner; Stillpoint Ultra SS's under (3) McIntosh MC501 Amplifiers

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable, Add-Powr EAU-2 AC Harmonic resonator

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop

Last edited by Vintage Pete; 05-18-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:38 AM
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a 352 can be bridged in real mono I think that is the way I understand
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:36 AM
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Several years ago when I was considering the same option of adding a second 402 or moving to 501's, I spoke with someone at McItnosh, probably Chuck Hinton and he stated you would get more power out of the two 402's with a very, very slight increase in distortion but unlikely to be noticeable.
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  #6  
Old 05-18-2013, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
I think he has it right, the MC402 has aparallel mono option but not "bridged" mono. I always found it curious that it had no 8 ohm mono power rating, I questioned this a number of times and the answer I got was that it had to do with the mono parallel configuration.

It appears mgbaron is aware of this limitation; I had considered upgrading my MC252 that I had at the time to an MC402 as a subwoofer amp but I ultimately shied away due to the mono parallel/impedance limitation. It my view this was a shortcoming to the MC402.
Pete.......Just like when two 8 ohm speakers are connected in parallel the impedance becomes 4 ohms, so do the impedance taps on a McIntosh amplifier when wired for parallel operation. The 2, 4, and 8 ohm taps become 1, 2, and 4 ohm taps. If an amplifier can be bridged then the output stages are running in series. Just like 8 ohm speakers connected in series, the impedance is doubled to 16 ohms, so 2, 4, and 8 ohm amplifier taps become 4, 8, 16 ohms when the amplifier is operated in bridged mode.

It seems that modern speaker designers have settled on 4 ohms as the typical load impedance of newer speakers, so operating a McIntosh MC402 amplifier in parallel mode, where the 8 ohm taps become 4 ohms, would not present a problem providing an owner is driving a 4 ohm speaker load.

Being able to operate the MC402 in parallel mode is a nice feature. It is unfortunate that the newer MC452 can only be operated in two channel stereo mode with no provisions for bridged or parallel output.
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STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital cable, Sonos Connect, PurePower 2000, Stillpoints, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Wireworld, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Micro Seiki DD40, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Nakamichi BX-300, Sony 60ES DAT, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints, Wireworld, Kimber, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113
VINTAGE - McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, Sony DTC-59ES DAT, McIntosh 4300V, JBL 4312A

Last edited by jdandy; 05-18-2013 at 11:47 AM.
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  #7  
Old 05-18-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Pete.......Just like when two 8 ohm speakers are connected in parallel the impedance becomes 4 ohms, so do the impedance taps on a McIntosh amplifier when wired for parallel operation. The 2, 4, and 8 ohm taps become 1, 2, and 4 ohm taps. If an amplifier can be bridged then the output stages are running in series. Just like 8 ohm speakers connected in series, the impedance is doubled to 16 ohms, so 2, 4, and 8 ohm amplifier taps become 4, 8, 16 ohms when the amplifier is operated in bridged mode.

It seems that modern speaker designers have settled on 4 ohms as the typical load impedance of newer speakers, so operating a McIntosh MC402 amplifier in parallel mode, where the 8 ohm taps become 4 ohms, would not present a problem providing an owner is driving a 4 ohm speaker load.

Being able to operate the MC402 in parallel mode is a nice feature. It is unfortunate that the newer MC452 can only be operated in two channel stereo mode with no provisions for bridged or parallel output.
Dan...right, I understand all that but I was (and am) running an 8 ohm subwoofer. When I contacted McIntosh about it (I think I too communicated with Chuck Hinton) they pretty much recommended against my plan. At the time I was running my MC252 in bridged mode and I liked the idea of the increased power the MC402 could offer. Unfortunately I ran into this roadblock.

I also agree Dan that it is unfortunate that the newer MC452 doesn't offer any kind of bridging option. I briefly considered this beauty as a way to upgrade from a single MC501 for more power to my sub. Once again I had to abandon the idea. What a shame.

I was unaware of 4 ohms becoming a trend for newer loudspeaker designs...I guess I've just not been paying that much attention to that aspect.

I guess maybe I'm just an old fashioned 8 ohm kind of guy!

Pete
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Main System: VPI Prime Signature TT in Rosewood, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Stillpoints LP1 V2, McIntosh: MP100, MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MS750 Music Server, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12 on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter, Add-Powr Wizard EM Field AC Line conditioner; Stillpoint Ultra SS's under (3) McIntosh MC501 Amplifiers

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable, Add-Powr EAU-2 AC Harmonic resonator

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage Pete View Post
I guess maybe I'm just an old fashioned 8 ohm kind of guy!
Pete.......Back in 1968, my Altec Voice of the Theater speakers were 16 ohms, and produce 104dB with 1 watt. Talk about an efficient horn loaded speaker.

At any rate, I think Matt will be fine adding an additional MC402 to his system. 800 watts per channel is a nice place to be with output power, and he doesn't have to sell his existing MC402. I think that's the way I would go if I were in his position.
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STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital cable, Sonos Connect, PurePower 2000, Stillpoints, Furutech Flux 50, Michell Gyro SE, Michell HR Power Supply, SME 309, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Wireworld, Sonus faber Amati Anniversario
LIVING ROOM - McIntosh C2300, MC75 (2), MR85, Magnum Dynalab 205, Simaudio MOON Neo 260D-T, Schiit Audio Yggdrasil, Aurender N100H, Shunyata Sigma USB cable, Micro Seiki DD40, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Nakamichi BX-300, Sony 60ES DAT, PS Audio P10, Furutech Flux 50, Sonos Connect, Stillpoints, Wireworld, Kimber, PMC EB1i, JL Audio f113
VINTAGE - McIntosh MA230, Tandberg 3011A tuner, Olive 04HD, Sony DTC-59ES DAT, McIntosh 4300V, JBL 4312A
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  #9  
Old 05-18-2013, 12:23 PM
mgbaron mgbaron is offline
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Thanks for all of the info. It's interesting, despite there being nothing hugely wrong with the configuration, after tons of searching, I haven't actually seen anyone that uses it. It seams like the upgrade path is more typically straight to true monoblocks. Calling McIntosh is probably a good idea before going this route. Also, without the option to go 8 ohm, you'd have to be pretty sure your speakers sounded best on the 4 ohm taps.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Pete.......Back in 1968, my Altec Voice of the Theater speakers were 16 ohms, and produce 104dB with 1 watt. Talk about an efficient horn loaded speaker.
You're not kidding, Dan!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdandy View Post
Pete.......
At any rate, I think Matt will be fine adding an additional MC402 to his system. 800 watts per channel is a nice place to be with output power, and he doesn't have to sell his existing MC402. I think that's the way I would go if I were in his position.
I agree.....and yes, 800 watts is certainly a nice place to be. That's why I was interested in this option.


Pete
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Main System: VPI Prime Signature TT in Rosewood, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Stillpoints LP1 V2, McIntosh: MP100, MR78, MCD1000 Transport on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MDA1000 D/A Converter on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, MS750 Music Server, C40, MC501's (3), Soundcraftsmen: DC2215 Eq/AS1000 Real time analyzer, DBX 3BX II, Carver C9, Nakamichi Dragon, Crown SX724, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), Sony XBR55X900E 4K TV, JBL L220A's, JBL B460, Sumo Delilah active crossover, WireWorld Silver Eclipse audio interconnects, WireWorld Starlight and Silver Starlight Coaxial Digital interconnects, Wireworld SuperNova 7 Toslink digital interconnect, WireWorld Aurora 7 and Silver Electra Power cords, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 speaker cables, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-Ray Player, Bryson BUC-1 USB Converter, Wireworld Gold Starlight XLR Digital interconnect, PS Audio Direct Stream Power Plant 12 on Stillpoint Ultra Minis, PS Audio Dectect, FuruTech Flux-50 NCF Inline Power Filter, Add-Powr Wizard EM Field AC Line conditioner; Stillpoint Ultra SS's under (3) McIntosh MC501 Amplifiers

Florida Room/Art Studio System: Harmon Kardon T60 TT/Ortofon 2M Black, McIntosh: MR77, C32, MC2205; Crown Power Line Four, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 Digital to Analog converter, Soundcraftsmen AE2000 Eq, JBL 4313B's, JBL 2241-based Sub, JBL BX63A Active Crossover, Oppo BDP-105D Blu-Ray Player, Samsung 5500 Series 32" Smart TV, Terk AF-1 Powered Antenna

Master Bedroom System: McIntosh: MX120 Theater processor, MC206 6-channel amplifier; MR74 AM/FM Tuner, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, JVC HM-DH40000U D-Theater Digital VHS, Phase Technology PC80 Towers (now used as stands), (2) JBL 4401's, (1) JBL Studio 6IW speaker, (2) JBL Studio 6IC speakers, Sony XBR-49X900E UHD TV, Panamax 1000 Line Conditioner, (2) JL Audio E110 Subwoofers, Wireworld Solstice speaker cables, Wireworld Aurora Power cords, Wireworld Equinox and Solstice speaker cables and various other flavors of Wireworld and Audioquest cabling

Office System: Marantz 150 Tuner, Crown DL 2, Crown EQ 2, Crown SA 2, Crown D-75A (as headphone amp), McIntosh MCD7009 (as transport), DBX 3BX Series II, Oppo BDP-103 Blu-ray player, JBL 4401's, JL Audio E112 Subwoofer, Samsung 5500 series 32" Smart TV, Wire World Oasis audio interconnects, Wire World Solstice speaker cables, Wyred for Sound DAC-2 DSDse Digital to Analog converter, Wireworld Starlight Coaxial Digital Interconnect, Sennheiser HD800 Headphones, Sennheiser HDVA600 Headphone amp, Wireworld Silver Eclipse Balanced Interconnects, Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB Cable, Add-Powr EAU-2 AC Harmonic resonator

High Resolution Source: HP Omen 17" Gaming Laptop
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