C22 and Headphones?

[PeterMusic]

I'm a headphone noob--or trying to be. My system is in our living room, which has been fine except with all of us in the house all the time practicing social distancing...

I tried a pair of Focal Utopias--they were very good, but they didn't light me up, and for $5K or so, I think they should. But I have been wondering if things would be different if I had a dedicated headphone amp instead of plugging into the front of my C22. Is there a headphone amp in the C22, or some suboptimal solution? If I should get a dedicated headphone amp, how much might I need to spend to pair with the Utopias or something in a similar price range? Thanks

[cleeds]

I don't have first-hand experience with the C22, but I can offer some general advice.

First, the headphone jack on many components is nothing but an afterthought. That's not the case with McIntosh but, regardless, it's not likely to be the equal of the best dedicated headphone amplifiers. If you want the best headphone performance, you'll need a dedicated headphone amp, imo.

Because you're a self-acknowledged headphone noob, why not continue to use your C22 and experiment with some relatively "budget" cans? You might be surprised! A modestly priced Grado or Senneheiser might suffice.

One reason I suggest starting at the low end is that listening to headphones is an entirely different experience than listening to speakers. Some listeners never warm up to headphones - regardless of price. Yet a modest set of cans might be enough to help you decide if further expense is worthwhile.

[Bob Bubeck]

Originally Posted by PeterMusic

I'm a headphone noob--or trying to be. My system is in our living room, which has been fine except with all of us in the house all the time practicing social distancing...

I tried a pair of Focal Utopias--they were very good, but they didn't light me up, and for $5K or so, I think they should. But I have been wondering if things would be different if I had a dedicated headphone amp instead of plugging into the front of my C22. Is there a headphone amp in the C22, or some suboptimal solution? If I should get a dedicated headphone amp, how much might I need to spend to pair with the Utopias or something in a similar price range? Thanks

You have not stated what you found as shortcomings for the Focals and selection of transducers has a high personal taste factor. Assuming that your C22 is one of the retro reissues, permit me to suggest an option. I have enjoyed my MHP-1000 headphones via the headphone jack of my C2700 (and C2500, beforehand). Although now discontinued, the MHP-1000's are still available, comparably affordable, and have an impedance that mates well with that of the output jack of recent Mac preamplifiers.

One could also visit audio stores and audition headphone amps ... an upfront logical approach.

Just a thought. Happy listening.

Bob
____________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9”; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent G5 balanced and speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record cleaner: Kirmuss KA-RC-1 ultrasonic.

[PeterMusic]

Thanks for the tips, B&C.

I have a pair of modest PSBs ($300 or so) and a pair of very good UE IEMs for travel ($1500 or so). My friendly dealer loaned me the Focals; but he did not mention a headphone amp, so my guess is that he does not have one that he would recommend, but you're right, I should ask.

The UEs suffice--actually, they are really good. But I am so bummed by so many things on covid, I am hoping to find a headphone set up that will be good enough that I do not miss my speakers.

[W9TR]

The onboard McIntosh headphone amps are OK. Nothing stellar. The one in my McIntosh C 1100 is easily bested by the headphone section of my Benchmark DAC3 HGC. So I use that now.

I have Audeze LCD4 cans. They are hard to drive.

I also own the THX AAA 789 headphone amp and it is excellent - a straight wire with gain for $400. No other amp will beat it in terms of objective performance. But that doesn’t tell the whole sound story.

I’d try out as many ‘phones as you can. Find a pair you like using the C22. Then you can experiment with different amps to fill in anything you think might be missing.

There are just so many options I think if you find phones to your sonic and comfort liking you can tweak them with an amp to reach nirvana.

For example, I too don’t like the Focal Utopias - not at all. Like, really, no. Some find them nirvana. So it is important to play the field to the extent you can.


The headphone amp market has exploded in recent years, with an exceptional selection of amps with different sound signatures at every price point from $50 to $25,000.

Tom

[PeterMusic]

Originally Posted by W9TR

The onboard McIntosh headphone amps are OK. Nothing stellar. The one in my McIntosh C 1100 is easily bested by the headphone section of my Benchmark DAC3 HGC. So I use that now.

I have Audeze LCD4 cans. They are hard to drive.

I also own the THX AAA 789 headphone amp and it is excellent - a straight wire with gain for $400. No other amp will beat it in terms of objective performance. But that doesn’t tell the whole sound story.

I’d try out as many ‘phones as you can. Find a pair you like using the C22. Then you can experiment with different amps to fill in anything you think might be missing.

There are just so many options I think if you find phones to your sonic and comfort liking you can tweak them with an amp to reach nirvana.

For example, I too don’t like the Focal Utopias - not at all. Like, really, no. Some find them nirvana. So it is important to play the field to the extent you can.


The headphone amp market has exploded in recent years, with an exceptional selection of amps with different sound signatures at every price point from $50 to $25,000.

Tom

Thanks, Tom. Very helpful comparison on the C1100 to the Benchmark, especially since it looks like you amp is only 10% of the price of the cans.

I will try the LCD-4's (and others!) with a headphone amp.

A tad confused by your statement "But that doesn't tell the whole sound story". Do you mean there are certain other drawbacks to the THX AAA?

Peter

[FreddieFerric]

I have the Woo WA6. It's pretty decent, but the guys on a few of the cans forums really, really love this one...

https://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...hone-amplifier

A bit too pricey for me since I listen to headphones so infrequently.

[W9TR]

Originally Posted by PeterMusic

Thanks, Tom. Very helpful comparison on the C1100 to the Benchmark, especially since it looks like you amp is only 10% of the price of the cans.



I will try the LCD-4's (and others!) with a headphone amp.



A tad confused by your statement "But that doesn't tell the whole sound story". Do you mean there are certain other drawbacks to the THX AAA?



Peter

Peter - a lot of people use headphone amps as a kind of tone control. Cans too harsh? Try a single ended tube headphone amp. Need more oomph? Try a high current SS job. Makes sense really.

The THX AAA 789 is totally neutral with plenty of drive, so for example if you are looking for tube sweetness this is not the amp for you. The artifacts of distortion and noise are so low they challenge the best audio measurement systems out there today.

[IM3CPO]

I bought a pair of Audeze LCD-X's and started out listening to them on the headphone jack on a McIntosh C2700 tube pre-amp. I much like you, was not all that impressed and started doubting what others were saying about how good these headphones were supposed to be. I purchased a Mjolnir 2 dedicated headphone amp and holy smokes! Its almost indescribable as to how much better the sound is.

I would most definitely try a dedicated headphone amp; especially since you have as much invested thus far.

[Bob Bubeck]

Originally Posted by IM3CPO

I bought a pair of Audeze LCD-X's and started out listening to them on the headphone jack on a McIntosh C2700 tube pre-amp. I much like you, was not all that impressed and started doubting what others were saying about how good these headphones were supposed to be. I purchased a Mjolnir 2 dedicated headphone amp and holy smokes! Its almost indescribable as to how much better the sound is.

I would most definitely try a dedicated headphone amp; especially since you have as much invested thus far.

Agreed to this extent .... the LCD-X has an impedance of 20 ohm which is a mismatch for the headphone output for a McIntosh preamp such as the C2700. Headphones in the impedance range of 200 - 250 ohm such as some of the Beyer Dynamics or the Mac MHP 1000 will usually be better fits with a Mac preamp head phone output. YMMV.

Respectfully,

Bob
_______________
Sources: Clearaudio Jubilee MC/Clearaudio Innovation Wood TT w/Universal Arm 9”; MCT500 CD/SACD transport; OPPO 205; NAD C446 Internet Tuner; Nakamichi 670ZX cassette deck. Electronics: MacIntosh C2700 preamp w/DA2 and MC462 power amp. Speakers: Wilson Yvettes Headphones: MacIntosh MHP 1000 Interconnects: Transparent G5 balanced and speaker cables; MCT - MCT500 -> C2700.Power cords: Transparent (on preamp, power amp and transport). Surge protected. Record cleaner: Kirmuss KA-RC-1 ultrasonic.