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  #101  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:05 PM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
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80 Hz seems to be the universally accepted crossover frequency. I think it may be too high for mains with deep bass capability. Bob Katz and I both settled on somewhere around 65-70 Hz using Lipinski L-707's with a pair of JL Audio F112 subs (I emulated Bob's setup at the time). The 707's don't have nearly as much low end capability as Salon2's.

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 04-04-2018 at 02:10 PM.
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  #102  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:20 PM
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GaryProtein GaryProtein is offline
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With an active electronic crossover you can use ANY crossover point because the signal is divided. If you just add a sub, you will have overlap which may be perfectly OK, but in some instances will cause problems integrating.

In general, with good speakers, you should dial in the subs around 40, maybe 50 Hz if you like extra punch.

If your speakers have a woofer to midrange crossover at 100-200 Hz, you would hardly be using your mains woofers at all if you crossed your sub in at 80-90 Hz.
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Last edited by GaryProtein; 04-04-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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  #103  
Old 04-11-2018, 11:06 AM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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Gary: For the record, the Salon 2 woofers cross over at 150Hz. This still takes the three 8" LF drivers largely out of the equation for two octaves when using an 80 or 90Hz knee. Also for the record, Barry Ober (JLA) suggested a higher crossover point of a minimum 80 Hz so that became my starting point. If I told you everything he suggested, you' might think I was mistaken for following his directives but using his basic approach I have achieved a good balance or at least one that satisfies me. Since my experimenting has been done with his advice in mind, that's how I came to initially opt for higher knees. I will be changing out the crossover points over the next several months but as I mentioned previously, coming up with a "best" scenario by cut and try takes a lot of listening as the combo seems to be pretty forgiving. Yet there's sure to be a preferred point so the trials will continue.

Trying to achieve a happy balance without a good electronic crossover proved futile in my situation. The best results in that scenario required a low pass setting at the sub of below 40Hz but that sacrificed a great deal of impact. That doesn't seem to be the case when using an external crossover set to a higher knee but rest assured that every frequency option will eventually be explored and reported on to the best of my ability.

As you (sort of) infer, to a great extent the satisfaction achieved by selecting various knees is a function of what one is looking for. If impact and big slam is wanted, it seems like the higher crossover points provide that. If greater delicacy and 'snap' are desired, perhaps a lower crossover point may be the ticket. Shooting for the kind of flat response the Salons achieve in the mids and highs seems secondary as it's almost impossible to replicate that in a typical domestic environment. At least I can't seem to get there in the bass regions with the tools I have.
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Last edited by Pampero; 04-11-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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  #104  
Old 05-03-2018, 08:46 AM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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It's taken me some time to report back but a switch to 60Hz has resulted in tighter bass, just noticeable improved definition on the leading edge of transients and no loss of impact. For those who prefer more rumble, a higher crossover point will provide that but at the expense of better definition. How low can you go? I'll keep you posted.

Thought you'd like to know, especially Gary and Rex.
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  #105  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:10 AM
Rex Anderson Rex Anderson is offline
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Thanks for the update! I thought you would find a lower crossover point works better.

I think lower than 60 Hz will be too low, but that is based on my experience with large PA systems, not ones in homes.

Keep up the good work and let us know what you find to be the best.

I don't know how accurate you can be with the frequency, but I like to set things at frequencies that relate to musical pitch, i.e A= 440Hz.

At 60 Hz, you are close to B1 which is 61.74 Hz. Try C2 = 65.41 or 55 Hz = A

https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

If you crossover lower than that, you are letting your mains handle a lot of low end and use amp power for them, and only using the subs for one octave of bass if they will go down to 27.5 Hz flat. Below that, pitch is not very musical and mostly used for effects in movies unless you listen to pipe organ recordings that can reach C0 = 16.35 Hz.

As a recording engineer, I was mostly concerned with acoustic and electric bass, kick drum etc where low E is 41.2 Hz. Piano goes down to A0=27.5, but not a lot of music is written for those notes.

On AVS forums, home theater guys worry about getting flat response down to 15 Hz LOL. How low can you go!

Last edited by Rex Anderson; 05-03-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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  #106  
Old 05-05-2018, 07:23 PM
Pampero Pampero is offline
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I'll try 65Hz next time I feel ambitious.

Along the way (but not previously mentioned in this thread) I treated the room. I did gobos for the first reflections and added 4 GIK bass traps. That made a big difference and was well worth it. I still have a narrow suck-out at 55Hz but I don't hear it that way on program.

I don't know if a suck out would work for or against me (at the crossover) but this 60Hz tuning I have now is cooking. It's focused, tight when it should be, no bloat and I think reflective of what is in the source. It changes quite a bit according to source. The best part to me is that it's very "audible." You hear the lows not just feel them. To some that might sound backwards but just getting to feel bass is stupid easy. Now I can really HEAR clear, defined yet weighty bass. It goes deep yet it's got tone and scales up and down the spectrum without making a fuss. Huzzah.

Achieving just this degree of success has been a journey but I've learned stuff. If only I could remember what that was!
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Last edited by Pampero; 05-05-2018 at 07:25 PM.
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