REF 6 v.s. REF 40

[cleeds]

Originally Posted by Harlequin

... It is of paramount importance that NOS GE's be obtained from a reputable source ...
Altho that is still not an infallable guarantee of fidelity once deployed under circuit conditions within ones own equipment.

Quite so! And the variables don't even end there, because the vagarity of AC power between different locations - and even the differences between 120 VAC and 240 VAC operation - introduce another set of unknowns. So it's always dicey to conclude one tube or another is "best" under all conditions.

[jpspock]

Hi guys, on my ref5se, I had a 6550c, we. than I had the chance to discover tungsol nos from 50's, black plate, and 60's grey plate. All of them without holes. And really, it is one of best and biggest improvement in my system.

[TOGA]

Originally Posted by joey_v

Can excitement mean it is a bit on the brighter side rather than the more even footed Ref40?

Just curious

I think it was more about the dynamic and low frequency performance.
It was more like live (amplified )performance.
toga

[TOGA]

This has gone too far off from the topic I started, but actually it is a good reminder to me
the reason why I start looking to replace Ref40 from the start. I felt ref40 performance
was dropping. Not as good as when I first use it. I think it was aging tubes. and then many
told me that with std. and easy to find tubes, any REF will sound much poorer than when
there are vintage NOS GE in it. So in the past few months. I was looking for a new SS preamp. Most of them the top model from each company.

Here are what I had an extensive time with in my system
Pass XP20
Pass XS Pre <-- pretty nice, only top treble that I found trailing behind Ref40
Accuphase C3850
Burmester 088
Burmester 808 MK V <--- magical sounding, by heavily handed seasoning.
Soulution 725
Jeff Rowland Corus with PSU

And to be sure I want to leave tube, I borrowed REF 6 . and Hey....
Of all pre amps I tried, I happened to like Ref 6 sound the most, but the fact
here that it will need GE NOS kinda a no go for me.

But with some discussion regarding tube rolling here, it reminded me once again that
I should try nice SS pre amp where there is nothing to roll. I don't want to have a preamp
that require rare NOS to sound its very best.

And one that, to my ears, came to the same level of musical enjoyment to me as Ref6
was the Burmester 808 MK V. .. With Ref 6 that is quite manageable price, I can buy Ref6
as used in the future in case I find myself really have to have it.

toga

[triode12]

Originally Posted by TOGA

This has gone too far off from the topic I started, but actually it is a good reminder to me
the reason why I start looking to replace Ref40 from the start. I felt ref40 performance
was dropping. Not as good as when I first use it. I think it was aging tubes. and then many
told me that with std. and easy to find tubes, any REF will sound much poorer than when
there are vintage NOS GE in it. So in the past few months. I was looking for a new SS preamp. Most of them the top model from each company.

Here are what I had an extensive time with in my system
Pass XP20
Pass XS Pre <-- pretty nice, only top treble that I found trailing behind Ref40
Accuphase C3850
Burmester 088
Burmester 808 MK V <--- magical sounding, by heavily handed seasoning.
Soulution 725
Jeff Rowland Corus with PSU

And to be sure I want to leave tube, I borrowed REF 6 . and Hey....
Of all pre amps I tried, I happened to like Ref 6 sound the most, but the fact
here that it will need GE NOS kinda a no go for me.

But with some discussion regarding tube rolling here, it reminded me once again that
I should try nice SS pre amp where there is nothing to roll. I don't want to have a preamp
that require rare NOS to sound its very best.

And one that, to my ears, came to the same level of musical enjoyment to me as Ref6
was the Burmester 808 MK V. .. With Ref 6 that is quite manageable price, I can buy Ref6
as used in the future in case I find myself really have to have it.

toga

I would purchase NOS tubes for your Ref40 and do a direct comparison between the (brand new set of) new production tubes and NOS tubes in the unit , before making the move in selling up and purchasing an SS unit.

It is IMO crazy to get rid of a perfectly great preamp just because some people have told you that it won't perform at it's best without using NOS tubes. Which I think is absolute rubbish. The only ears that matter are yours.

Your Ref40 is the same preamp as the Ref10 the only difference is that your Ref40 has larger Teflon caps instead of TRT Gold Stealth caps. If others have been saying that the Ref10 beats the Ref6 then, your Ref40 should do likewise.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by triode12

I would purchase NOS tubes for your Ref40 and do a direct comparison between the (brand new set of) new production tubes and NOS tubes in the unit , before making the move in selling up and purchasing an SS unit.

It is IMO crazy to get rid of a perfectly great preamp just because some people have told you that it won't perform at it's best without using NOS tubes. Which I think is absolute rubbish. The only ears that matter are yours.

Your Ref40 is the same preamp as the Ref10 the only difference is that your Ref40 has larger Teflon caps instead of TRT Gold Stealth caps. If others have been saying that the Ref10 beats the Ref6 then, your Ref40 should do likewise.

I agree with this 100%.

Disclaimer - I have heard the Ref 10 and Ref 40 but not the Ref 6. If you beleave the Ref 6 is better then the Ref 40 then by default it would be better then the Ref 10, which I seriously doubt. Just my opinion.

It is my opinion that anyone considering a REF 6 should strongly consider a used REF 40. This is because IMHO the REF 10 and REF 40 are so close.

Keep in mind I did not consider looks or user interface, just how is sounded to my ears.

[tima]

Originally Posted by TOGA

This has gone too far off from the topic I started, but actually it is a good reminder to me
the reason why I start looking to replace Ref40 from the start. I felt ref40 performance
was dropping. Not as good as when I first use it. I think it was aging tubes. and then many
told me that with std. and easy to find tubes, any REF will sound much poorer than when
there are vintage NOS GE in it. So in the past few months. I was looking for a new SS preamp. Most of them the top model from each company.

Here are what I had an extensive time with in my system
Pass XP20
Pass XS Pre <-- pretty nice, only top treble that I found trailing behind Ref40
Accuphase C3850
Burmester 088
Burmester 808 MK V <--- magical sounding, by heavily handed seasoning.
Soulution 725
Jeff Rowland Corus with PSU

And to be sure I want to leave tube, I borrowed REF 6 . and Hey....
Of all pre amps I tried, I happened to like Ref 6 sound the most, but the fact
here that it will need GE NOS kinda a no go for me.

But with some discussion regarding tube rolling here, it reminded me once again that
I should try nice SS pre amp where there is nothing to roll. I don't want to have a preamp
that require rare NOS to sound its very best.

And one that, to my ears, came to the same level of musical enjoyment to me as Ref6
was the Burmester 808 MK V. .. With Ref 6 that is quite manageable price, I can buy Ref6
as used in the future in case I find myself really have to have it.

toga

TOGA, you have had tube questions regarding your Ref 40 on this forum since 2014. I believe you understand that tubes do get consumed and when that happens the unit they are in will not offer optimal sonics. Now it seems you believe your equipment will sound inferior to the same gear using NOS tubes - or a belief something like that.

Presumably you purchased your Ref 40 based on assessment of the linestage out of the box as sold by Audio Research. I hope you heard it in your system before making a purchase. It's not clear from your post but sounds like you have not adopted NOS tubes for it and your concern seems to be that you're believing someone saying that it some how became less of a linestage for not doing so and that your current tubes may be getting used up.

If you put a fresh set of tubes in it - tubes like those that came with the unit - it should sound almost identical to the unit you purchased. (Unless it has a defect.) Probably it will sound better because it is broken in. If you're not satisfied with that perhaps you just want something different.

If you buy an ARC Ref6 you will have the exact same tube issues and questions you've had with your Ref40. And the same people will be telling you the same story about needing to use NOS tubes. And, in my opinion, you will have a different sound but perhaps not as good a sound - your ears will tell you, but it may take a while to get a real handle on the change. Regardless, again, you will arrive at the exact same issues about tubes as you have now.

If you buy expensive NOS tubes for your Ref 40 then decide to change linestages you will not get your money back on the tubes. I believe anyone who buys a piece of gear based on the notion that it is only worthy because of claimed advantages of NOS tubes is making an error. So I agree with your view: I don't want to have a preamp
that require rare NOS to sound its very best.

Perhaps your temperament or preference, for lack of a better word, is disposed to solid state gear - maybe having tube gear is too much hassle for you. Maybe you'll enjoy listening to music more if you did not have tube questions before you. I'm not advocating SS gear - I've always had a tube-based pre-amp - but the questions and uncertainties you've had with tubes could disappear. And you may get more on-topic answers about solid state units in other forums.

There will always be pros and cons, tradeoffs, with all gear. If tube questions and issues continue to be continual, I think you may be happier with solid state.

[PlanarSpeakerFan]

Hi Toga,

If the performance of your Ref 40 is dropping, then you quite simply need a new tube set. This could be a new stock tube set supplied by ARC. If you were initially very happy with this sound, then you should be again with the new stock tube set. Having said that, you may prefer the sound of the NOS tubes but they certainly aren't required, they're just an option. In most cases, any tube component would benefit from the right set of NOS tubes. But this is not a game you have to play if you find it too troublesome. I absolutely love the sound of my Ref 10 with its stock tube set. I would not have purchased it otherwise. But I don't doubt that I could improve its performance with the right NOS tubes. It's an option that I may or may not explore. I'm honestly quite happy right now with the stock tube set.

Best,
Ken

[tima]

Originally Posted by Alki

I agree with this 100%.

Disclaimer - I have heard the Ref 10 and Ref 40 but not the Ref 6. If you beleave the Ref 6 is better then the Ref 40 then by default it would be better then the Ref 10, which I seriously doubt. Just my opinion.

It is my opinion that anyone considering a REF 6 should strongly consider a used REF 40. This is because IMHO the REF 10 and REF 40 are so close.

Keep in mind I did not consider looks or user interface, just how is sounded to my ears.

Yes. And the Ref 40 should be at something of a bargain.

The Ref 40 was a 1-year anniversary offering. I believe the consumer response to it was so successful that the Ref 10 was inevitable. The two units are similar but not identical in sound. Read this TAB review for a comparison.

From what I've read (hearsay) the Ref 6 does sound different from the Ref 5se and Ref 10 (which is two Ref 5ses). Fremer's review of the 6 in the latest (dec '16?) Stereophile is worth a look. He suggests the 6's circuitry is different from the 5/10 though I've read others who say it's more similar than different. Sometime after CES I may have the chance to have all three (5/6/10) in for a listen.

I'm confident that Audio Research would not release a linestage they believed sonically superior to their top-of-the-line linestage. Of course everyone gets to have their opinion, but I've never heard or read of ARC doing something like that. Have you?

[tima]

Originally Posted by cleeds

Quite so! And the variables don't even end there, because the vagarity of AC power between different locations - and even the differences between 120 VAC and 240 VAC operation - introduce another set of unknowns. So it's always dicey to conclude one tube or another is "best" under all conditions.

And while the linestages have sufficiently broad enough requirements to allow each to work, the tubes (A/C/WE) do have different specifications. Imo, that's a more likely direct explanation for different sound.