Has anybody put the tweeter from the "signature" 800 series in a N800 series speaker?

[rodH]

I asked in another thread how to tame the N tweeter in my N804 speakers. I have learned based on careful studying if the service manual diagrams that the S-series tweeters do not appear to fit the same in the N-series pods.

But, that the signature series tweeter is of the exact shape, size and fit. That being said, and the incredible reviews that the signatures have gotten in the past I am wondering if anyone has just added these tweeters to their N805/804/803/802/ etc??

Is this a possible "upgrade" for me and if so would any changes need to be made with the standard N804 HF crossover?

If any one has any experience with this type of modification, I'd love to hear your experience.

TIA

[Art Vandelay]

Hi Rod,

Changes in the FST driver as well as enclosure differences between the N804 and 800S means that it's best to keep the original crossover values.

Differences between the various tweeter iterations mostly amounts to measured distortion and some response differences above 10kHz.

See attached simulations of the tweeter responses. (note that I've used the diamond tweeter frequency response in each case below, so differences are purely due to the crossover changes.)

1. N804 tweeter crossover
2. S800 tweeter crossover
3. 800 diamond " "
4. 800 diamond - with my own crossover modifications

[rodH]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

Hi Rod,

Changes in the FST driver as well as enclosure differences between the N804 and 800S means that it's best to keep the original crossover values.

Differences between the various tweeter iterations mostly amounts to measured distortion and some response differences above 10kHz.

See attached simulations of the tweeter responses. (note that I've used the diamond tweeter frequency response in each case below, so differences are purely due to the crossover changes.)

1. N804 tweeter crossover
2. S800 tweeter crossover
3. 800 diamond " "
4. 800 diamond - with my own crossover modifications

Art, so the conclusion would be to replace the tweeter only and leave the Xover the same (or at least the Xover values the same but maybe upgrade to better caps and resister on the HF Xover?)

Also is that the 800S or the signature 800 tweeter HF Xover you graphed?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by rodH

Art, so the conclusion would be to replace the tweeter only and leave the Xover the same (or at least the Xover values the same but maybe upgrade to better caps and resister on the HF Xover)?

Yep. 1 step at a time.

Replace the tweeter first and go from there.

Redesigning crossovers really requires you to have the facilities to make accurate and meaningful measurements.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by rodH

Also is that the 800S or the signature 800 tweeter HF Xover you graphed?

800 nautilus and signature use identical crossover filter values. The tweeter employs a 3rd order electrical filter, unlike the more recent diamond series which uses a simple first order electrical filter.

My modified diamond crossover applies some impedance correction to flatten the voice coil resonance and thus provides a more uniform 2nd order acoustic roll-off.

[rodH]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

800 nautilus and signature use identical crossover filter values. lter.

Are you sure they are the same values? The service manual says this:

N804

R1 R2R 11W ceramic resistor
C1 4u7 250V polypropylene capacitor
C2 10uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
L1 inductor 0.15mH

Signature 800 (not the 800S)

R1 1R 50W resistor
C1 6uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
C2 20uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
L1 inductor 0.07mH wire 0.45mm dia air core

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by rodH

Are you sure they are the same values? The service manual says this:

N804

R1 R2R 11W ceramic resistor
C1 4u7 250V polypropylene capacitor
C2 10uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
L1 inductor 0.15mH

Signature 800 (not the 800S)

R1 1R 50W resistor
C1 6uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
C2 20uF 250V polypropylene capacitor
L1 inductor 0.07mH wire 0.45mm dia air core

Apologies for the ambiguity.

When I say '800 nautilus' I refer to the actual model (N800) rather than the series.

The Nautilus 800 and the Signature 800 share the same crossover design which is slightly different to the N803/4 models.

If you look at my simulations in a previous post you'll see the variations in the tweeter frequency response between the various model's crossovers.

From the service manual you can also see the slightly different component values in the FST high pass filter elements.

It's why I would be inclined to not tamper with the crossover values if you do end up swapping the N804 tweeter with a Signature 800 tweeter.

[rodH]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

Apologies for the ambiguity.

When I say '800 nautilus' I refer to the actual model (N800) rather than the series.

The Nautilus 800 and the Signature 800 share the same crossover design which is slightly different to the N803/4 models.

If you look at my simulations in a previous post you'll see the variations in the tweeter frequency response between the various model's crossovers.

From the service manual you can also see the slightly different component values in the FST high pass filter elements.

It's why I would be inclined to not tamper with the crossover values if you do end up swapping the N804 tweeter with a Signature 800 tweeter.

This is exactly what I was wondering as well. I guess It isn't enough to just "assume" that since they both use an "FST driver" that they are exactly the same and the crossover to the FST is exactly the same in each example and "covering" the same frequencies. It is becoming obvious to me that just because 2 drivers look the same it may only be 1 thing that changes it all. (ie-on close study of the Sig 800 tweeter vs the N804 tweeter, out of the 10 parts that make up the tweeter, only 2 are different.......the "back plate" (which may or may not make any sonic difference) and the VOICE COIL (which obviously can make a huge difference). So even though the Magnet and the actual tweeter dome and all the other surrounding parts are the exact same part numbers, these 1-2 parts are what separate the Sig 800 with the N804. This same situation also applies to the FST which then spills over to that Xover as well.

Regarding the statement about the N800 using same Xover design as the Sig800, I guess that is a good thing since the N800 uses the same tweeter as the N804, so there is some commonality there which should translate.

[Grasshopper]

Thanks to all who commented on this thread.

I own the signature 800's and for some reason always thought the S800's were basically the same as the N800's except for the Birdseye color.

What are the non-cosmetic differences with the signature line vs. the nautilus counterpart?



To the OP, For what it's worth, I'm wanting to figure out how to tame the brightness out of my system as well.

[dan87951]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Thanks to all who commented on this thread.

I own the signature 800's and for some reason always thought the S800's were basically the same as the N800's except for the Birdseye color.

What are the non-cosmetic differences with the signature line vs. the nautilus counterpart?



To the OP, For what it's worth, I'm wanting to figure out how to tame the brightness out of my system as well.

With the Nautilus series the brightness is pretty common and kind of a trait of with this older series. I always thought the N804 was too bright, enough to make your ears bleed. The N803 and up always sounded rather good to me. I use to own a set of N803''s and loved them. My dad still has his N802's and while the bass can be a bit lacking they are a wonderful speaker. The 802D and 802D2 are not quite as bright. In my opinion the later D2's have much better bass response when compared to the Nautilus and original D's series, it really is night and day. All though they seem to be a bit more forward in the midrange. I guess it all depends on what you like.