Second Nagra MSA landed !

[Jerome W]

Hello folks,

So I like so much the MSA that I ordered an other one to use them in mono on the Harbeth 40.1.
The only "faulty" point of the Nagra MSA power amp is the stereo image. Very focused and stable but not as wide as tube amps.
So I thought that a second one could give me better in this field.

Listening only to the MSA in mono for about 2 hours, I am getting mixed feelings. More time will be needed to see if my initial impressions are confirmed or not.
For sure, the stereo image is not wider.
There seems to be a bit more density and weight. The bass gets slightly more definition and slam but all these points seem to be very marginal.
On the opposite, I have the strong impression that I lost a large part of musicality. The mids and the treble do not sing like the stereo "little" amp.
There is clearly also a feeling of decrease in speed, life and light. The bass seems more defined in mono, but it appears also to be clearly slower !

A possible explanation :
- the MSA stereo is optimized for 8 ohms speakers. 60W.
- in mono, each amp is set on an output of 4 ohms. 120W.
The 40.1 are rated at 6 ohms, but the impedance curve show clearly that the average impedance is around 10 ohms.
I get an impedance impairment when going from a single amp in stereo to monoblocks.

Time will tell if these first impressions are right or not.
But once again, my experiences show that:
- more power does not necessarily mean better sound. It all depends on the speaker matching and the room.
- low power amps are often more musical than their big brothers. Even on 85dB speakers !










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[Jerome W]

I just replugged a single MSA in stereo and...
The MAGIC is back.
A night and day difference.

The second MSA is going in a second system.

[Formerly YB-2]

Interesting. Have always liked the look of Nagra's tube gear, but am not familiar with their solid-state efforts.

Your experience is the same I had with McIntosh's MC275MkV tube amps. I attribute the better sound of one amp running in stereo to the same amps running bridged as mono-blocks to the fact that the single amp is only running a pair of output tubes in PP while a bridged amp is running four output tubes in PP. I've noticed the same thing in solid-state amps. To my ears, the Bryston 2B-LP is their best sounding amp, running only 2 output devices in a channel while all the larger amps are running multiple output devices per channel. With 60wpc, there is a good chance your Nagra is running only one pair of output devices per channel.

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by Formerly YB-2

Interesting. Have always liked the look of Nagra's tube gear, but am not familiar with their solid-state efforts. Your experience is the same I had with McIntosh's MC275MkV tube amps. I attribute the better sound of one amp running in stereo to the same amps running bridged as mono-blocks to the fact that the single amp is only running a pair of output tubes in PP while a bridged amp is running four output tubes in PP. I've noticed the same thing in solid-state amps. To my ears, the Bryston 2B-LP is their best sounding amp, running only 2 output devices in a channel while all the larger amps are running multiple output devices per channel. With 60wpc, there is a good chance your Nagra is running only one pair of output devices per channel.

Yes yes and yes ! My opinion too.
The Nagra in stereo uses a single pair of transistors. Shorter and simpler path. Mirrors a single ended amp. Like the Pass Aleph amp.
Moreover, in mono the impedance output is divided by 2. Could be good for some speakers and bad for others.

[bart]

Jérôme, interesting comparison.
Are both Nagra amps equally broken in?

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by bart

Jérôme, interesting comparison.
Are both Nagra amps equally broken in?

Hi Bart,
I do not believe anymore in break in since I talked to Alan Shaw, the boss of Harbeth but for those who believe in it, they are both demo units so I guess that they are similar in past use.

[bart]

I think Alan Shaw has a point for a lot of audio gear.
But sometimes the process of breaking in is very clear.
I noticed it the most with my Oppo player.
In the beginning it really sounded like crap, but after a couple of weeks it was a lot better.
I remember Cédric saying that (his?) tube gear doesn't need breaking in.

[jfrech]

I was going to ask about break in also. Same power cords and they are sitting on the same support? I am very curious about the Nagra Classic amp...have you had a chance to hear it yet? I am guessing your dealer sold the MSA's to make way for the Classic....

Speakers: Rockport Altair 2
Preamp: Robert Koda K10 Amp: Ayre MX-R
Cables: Transparent Opus MM2 Spkr, Opus Gen 5 & Magnum Opus Interconnect
Power Shunyata Triton/Typhon/DPC-6, Anaconda Zitron cords (x9), Sigma HC (x1)
Digital dCS Vivaldi DAC, Transport & Clock w/ Transparent Reference XL Digital cables
Phono: Grand Prix Monaco TT, Spiral Groove Centroid, Jan Allaerts MC2 Finish & Lyra Atlas, Nagra VPS/VFS
Racks: Grand Prix Audio Silverstone F1 (x2)

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by jfrech

I was going to ask about break in also. Same power cords and they are sitting on the same support? I am very curious about the Nagra Classic amp...have you had a chance to hear it yet? I am guessing your dealer sold the MSA's to make way for the Classic.... Speakers: Rockport Altair 2 Preamp: Robert Koda K10 Amp: Ayre MX-R Cables: Transparent Opus MM2 Spkr, Opus Gen 5 & Magnum Opus Interconnect Power Shunyata Triton/Typhon/DPC-6, Anaconda Zitron cords (x9), Sigma HC (x1) Digital dCS Vivaldi DAC, Transport & Clock w/ Transparent Reference XL Digital cables Phono: Grand Prix Monaco TT, Spiral Groove Centroid, Jan Allaerts MC2 Finish & Lyra Atlas, Nagra VPS/VFS Racks: Grand Prix Audio Silverstone F1 (x2)

Yes, same PCs and same supports.
No I did not have the chance to listen to the Classic amp.

[cmalak]

Jerome...congrats on the MSA. I think you're impressions will turn out to be right but for the sake of making sure that there aren't other issues contributing to the lack of musical involvement and the slowing down of the bass and also purely as an experiment, I would do what Bart suggests which is put the second MSA back in and run a signal through them continuously for the next 72-96 hours on moderate listening levels (at night of course you can turn the volume down so it does not bother anyone) and just see if things change for the better or worse. I would as close to 100 hours as possible (so 4 days continuous) and if nothing else it may prove to either confirm your skepticism in break-in or it might cause you to reevaluate it