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  #21  
Old 10-12-2015, 03:21 PM
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Antonmb Antonmb is offline
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Originally Posted by mchydro View Post
Even if it helps blend the sub in better, I would be concerned about adding another device in the signal path. The manufacturers of the preamps I am considering go to such great lengths to keep the signal as pure as possible. It seems to me that adding an active crossover may indeed help blend the subwoofers in better but hurt signal purity.
I agree it certainly takes time and great care to properly integrate a sub with full-range speakers, but it can be done with excellent results if you take the time, and if the sub has the right controls (including phase control), and especially if you have a knowledgable helper. You have great speakers, let them work at the full range for which they were designed, let your preamp/amp deliver their best signal to the speakers, and if you feel the need for a sub, use it to augment the speakers and not to replace a portion of their range.
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2015, 03:36 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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I have a digital preamp, mains that go down to the 30s (at least on paper), and subs.
I have tried different approaches:
1. Sending full frequency to the mains and using the filters in the subs to fill in the low frequencies (I think that this is what you are trying to do)
2. Using the crossover in the preamp and set an arbitrary number to crossover without paying much attention to speaker and subs placement.
3. Hire an expert to help setting the best crossover point and speakers and sub integration and placement.

The third option won by a large margin. The problem is that integrating the mains and the subs is not as easy at it sounds. You need to first find the best location for the subs in your room, then you play with crossover frequencies, and then you play with the phase of the subs to get them to work well with your mains. In my experience, the benefits I got from adding the crossover surpassed the cons.
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2015, 03:40 PM
trponhunter trponhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchydro View Post
Even if it helps blend the sub in better, I would be concerned about adding another device in the signal path. The manufacturers of the preamps I am considering go to such great lengths to keep the signal as pure as possible. It seems to me that adding an active crossover may indeed help blend the subwoofers in better but hurt signal purity.
This will be my last post on this - as I don't want to "push" the concept too hard, as not everyone will agree. I would not use an analog pre amp for the reason you mentioned - when in the analog domain all the additional components, cables and connectors will impact the signal purity. I would go with a digital pre amp that also has a digital crossover built in for the subwoofer - there would be no degradation to the signal and you would be using the d to a in the new pre/crossover. It would be purer and more transparent than running an analog pre amp, and also allow you all the tools needed to properly integrate the subs. In my view - simply a better way to do it - I've done it both ways and would never go back to the analog way or the full range and adding subs. You're system is the perfect scenario for such an implementation (digital only and subs). Good luck, hope whatever you decide works well for you.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2015, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trponhunter View Post

This will be my last post on this - as I don't want to "push" the concept too hard, as not everyone will agree. I would not use an analog pre amp for the reason you mentioned - when in the analog domain all the additional components, cables and connectors will impact the signal purity. I would go with a digital pre amp that also has a digital crossover built in for the subwoofer - there would be no degradation to the signal and you would be using the d to a in the new pre/crossover. It would be purer and more transparent than running an analog pre amp, and also allow you all the tools needed to properly integrate the subs. In my view - simply a better way to do it - I've done it both ways and would never go back to the analog way or the full range and adding subs. You're system is the perfect scenario for such an implementation (digital only and subs). Good luck, hope whatever you decide works well for you.
I appreciate your post and kindly ask for one more reply for the sake of an intellectual discussion. I will not perceive it as pushiness and hope no one else will.

Even with your preference, is there not still an analog portion in order to connect to the amps?

The analog portion of the active crossover is likely inferior in terms of distorion and noise to that of a very high-end preamp. That's my only concern. Is that faulty thinking on my part?

Thanks,
Mike
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2015, 06:10 PM
trponhunter trponhunter is offline
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ok - happy to reply since you asked.
In what I am suggesting - there is no anlog pre amp. The digital signal goes into the deqx(if you haven't looked it up ck it out on the web) via a digital cable. When in the deqx, the volume cotrol and the crossovers are handled in the digital domain. In addition, there are 10 bands of parametric eq avaiable to use to help eliminate room nodes and such. Since all this is done in the digital dmain, there is no loss of transparency. As the signal is about to leave the deqx, it is converted to analog, and then goes directly to the pwer amp - so the signal path is the shortest it can possibly be - even adding a high end pre amp after the deqx will result in a loss of transparency for all the reason stated above - meaning less is more when in the analog domain. Personally, I am quite confidnet this is the very best way to go - running full range and trying to add subs will have less resolution and more room bumps.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2015, 06:21 PM
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mchydro mchydro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trponhunter View Post
ok - happy to reply since you asked.
In what I am suggesting - there is no anlog pre amp. The digital signal goes into the deqx(if you haven't looked it up ck it out on the web) via a digital cable. When in the deqx, the volume cotrol and the crossovers are handled in the digital domain. In addition, there are 10 bands of parametric eq avaiable to use to help eliminate room nodes and such. Since all this is done in the digital dmain, there is no loss of transparency. As the signal is about to leave the deqx, it is converted to analog, and then goes directly to the pwer amp - so the signal path is the shortest it can possibly be - even adding a high end pre amp after the deqx will result in a loss of transparency for all the reason stated above - meaning less is more when in the analog domain. Personally, I am quite confidnet this is the very best way to go - running full range and trying to add subs will have less resolution and more room bumps.
I appreciate your post. I'll definitely look it up and research it. Thanks.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2015, 06:33 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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To the OP, I suggest that you check out:
www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm
Lots of info here about mains, subs, and crossovers.
And, I agree with trponhunter, specially If you are only using digital sources.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2015, 06:37 PM
nicoff nicoff is offline
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PS. I do not know anything about DEQX, where I agree with trponhunter with is that a crossover is NOT necessarily a bad thing.
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  #29  
Old 10-13-2015, 07:55 AM
trponhunter trponhunter is offline
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so much for pronouncements like "this is my last post". The sound doctor article is excellent - I would encourage everyone to read it - it explains why really only the kinds of tools available in digital domain allow really good and proper subwoofer integration. I've done it the old way for years - you may think you have gotten excellent results, but they are not excellent versus doing it correctly with the abilty to delay time and crossing over the subs correctly. In my store, everyone is amazed that there is no discontinuity or ability to hear the subs versus the mains at all - they were all integrated digitally, with the ability to delay time differences down to .1 milliseconds. I think these types of systems are the most exciting thing in audio right now - we have all kinds of new tools and products that outperform what was avaialalble only a few years ago by drastic amounts you just have to be open minded and sort of forget the ways you used to do things.
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