ARC ref2 se phono stage

[Juan]

Originally Posted by lotus340r

I would also put the Tom Evans Mastergroove ahead of it as well which I have recently had the pleasure of trying at home.

I'm curious about the performance of the TEAD Mastergroove against the ARC phono gear.
I never have the chance of hear the Ref 2SE, but I have a TEAD The Groove+ SRX and I have compared it against the ARC PH8. In my system, and with Lyra Kleos cartridge, the Tom Evans is superior to the ARC in terms of noise floor, dynamics, clarity, soundstage, emotion, etc. Certainly the ARC PH8 has "only" 58 db of gain to cope with my 0.5mv Lyra. BTW my line stage is an ARC LS26.

[enatai252]

Tom

I would say that your best upgrade path is to have your Ref Phono2 updated to a Ref Phono2SE but based on one of your other posts, in the UK that option does not appear to be viable. But I think its worth the effort to try...and should provide an improvement for the smallest cost.

I have TT setups in two systems at home, one uses the Ref Phono2SE with a Linn LP12 and one uses the ASR Basis Exclusive with an SME 20/3. I really like both, but they each have different strengths and do not sound identical. if i had to pick only one....it would be the Ref Phono2SE.

I have not heard the Ref Phono 2 non-SE so I cannot add value to the difference but I can say that the SE version can stand up very well to many different setups and many different competitors....which one is best for you becomes a personal subjective decision.

Others have offered up other products that may also work in your system. My suggestion is to spend some time listening critically with the Ref2....than try to have a home evaluation with some other options. You should be able to decide what works best for you.

I am also glad that Jerome is so excited about his setup and its great when you find a combo that really works with your personal tastes. I would disagree with him that the Ref2 sounds like a budget component or his statement that other models he has not heard, will surpass the SE version....which again he has not heard. His experience with the Ref Phono2 may not have sounded as good to him in his setup....but that is very subjective....and I would take all of our suggestions within the right context. Listen for yourself.

In the past, I have found that small incremental changes tend to help me get sustainable improvements rather than large scale changes....which sometimes sound intriguing at first, but I may tire of quickly. As always your opinion matters most and there is no substitution for in-home demo sessions.

Good luck

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by enatai252

Tom

I would say that your best upgrade path is to have your Ref Phono2 updated to a Ref Phono2SE but based on one of your other posts, in the UK that option does not appear to be viable. But I think its worth the effort to try...and should provide an improvement for the smallest cost.

I have TT setups in two systems at home, one uses the Ref Phono2SE with a Linn LP12 and one uses the ASR Basis Exclusive with an SME 20/3. I really like both, but they each have different strengths and do not sound identical. if i had to pick only one....it would be the Ref Phono2SE.

I have not heard the Ref Phono 2 non-SE so I cannot add value to the difference but I can say that the SE version can stand up very well to many different setups and many different competitors....which one is best for you becomes a personal subjective decision.

Others have offered up other products that may also work in your system. My suggestion is to spend some time listening critically with the Ref2....than try to have a home evaluation with some other options. You should be able to decide what works best for you.

I am also glad that Jerome is so excited about his setup and its great when you find a combo that really works with your personal tastes. I would disagree with him that the Ref2 sounds like a budget component or his statement that other models he has not heard, will surpass the SE version....which again he has not heard. His experience with the Ref Phono2 may not have sounded as good to him in his setup....but that is very subjective....and I would take all of our suggestions within the right context. Listen for yourself.

In the past, I have found that small incremental changes tend to help me get sustainable improvements rather than large scale changes....which sometimes sound intriguing at first, but I may tire of quickly. As always your opinion matters most and there is no substitution for in-home demo sessions.

Good luck

You are absolutely right.
I related my own experience. And yes I did not hear the REF 2 SE.
But :
1/ the REF 2 was really good in my system. Wonderful indeed. It was miles ahead the phono stage of the C1000P preamp who is not a "little" phono stage...
2/ About 15 persons went to listen to the Giscours LP playback and those people either compared the Ref 2 to the Giscours directly or had the memory of the vinyls they listened to in my home with the Ref 2. The comments of the REF 2 sound versus the Giscours were all extremely negative to the REF 2 and I will not mention the exact words they used.
3/ In a completely different system, a friend listened to the Giscours versus REF 5 SE and REF 2SE. Speakers were Tannoy Kingdom Royal. He told me that the Giscours killed the ARC gear for vinyl playback but he found it disappointing for digital : not as involving and live and real as vinyl. For digital he found more dynamics with the REF 5 SE but he said that he still preferred the Giscours because he could enjoy better even average recordings and the stereo image was more real with more depth.
4/ Honestly, the difference people who made the effort to listen to both ARC gear and Shindo for vinyl playback is so huge that I can assure you :
- no caps or power supply could make a "super REF 2" sound close to the Giscours
- when it is better at this level, it is BETTER in all systems, for all ears
- the only advantage of the Ref 2 is to be universal to most carts. The Giscours will need to use either MM carts or the MC carts with very low impedance and for other MC carts, a SUT will be necessary.
- if you are really serious about vinyl playback, you owe to yourself to listen just ONCE to a Giscours next to your ARC gear to understand what you are loosing with the ARC compared to the Giscours.

People like Keith Aschenbrenner who are analog and amplifiers gurus along the french team " L'Audiophile", who discovered Shindo 25 years ago all say the same thing : Vinyl playback cannot sound better than with a Shindo phono stage. They heard almost everything on the market. They tried to build their own. They all come to the same conclusion : you listen to a Shindo phono stage and the game is over with others. Shindo's knowledge on amplifying phono signals is unique and far far ahead anyone else.
Just listen for yourself and you will find out the same conclusion.

Only way for ARC to have one day a phono stage at the level of Shindo would be to hire him.

[enatai252]

Jerome

I am very glad you are happy with your system. I chose not to drink you Kool-aid for a variety of reasons.and oddly don't feel like I am missing anything..in fact in my opinion...I feel you are missing something...but .lets agree to disagree since we both are happy. All the best

[Jerome W]

Originally Posted by enatai252

Jerome

I am very glad you are happy with your system. I chose not to drink you Kool-aid for a variety of reasons.and oddly don't feel like I am missing anything..in fact in my opinion...I feel you are missing something...but .lets agree to disagree since we both are happy. All the best

No problem enatai252,
I was actually not having the impression to miss something with my REF 2....until I heard something else side by side. So I can understand your position easily. If you're really happy, there is no reason to look elsewhere.
Sometimes it is just easier not to hear / try anything else....

[Jerome W]

Ok Tom,

Forget what I said.
Make the SE upgrade to your REF 2 but do it fast....the REF 3 Phono is coming with new and improved caps !

[tom]

Hi John
good idea I wont rule out single ended.

Jérôme - I take your point about Shindo's consistency, I just wish it was possible to compare it with what I have already.

enatai - I agree, I do need to evaluate the alternatives at home.

Lots of different advice for me to peruse!

thank you to all.

[turntable]

Tom

For what its worth, all the phono stages I am sure are all extremely good. One person's warmth and tone is another's warm blanket over the music and visa versa.

A stereo buddy of mine has all Tom Evans amps including the top of range mastergroove. He has recently bought Dartzeel and prefers the internal phono stage on the Dart to the Master groove. He runs an Atlas like myself - So to answer your original question, the Dart phono is extremely good.

Another guy sold his Shindo Monbrison to go up the Shindo line. He had a listen to the conrad johnson se3se and to quote him, the cj pre /phono blows the Shindo out of the water. He made $ on this transaction.


So best to see what you can listen to in your system.

[enatai252]

Originally Posted by Jerome W

You are absolutely right.
I related my own experience. And yes I did not hear the REF 2 SE.
But :
1/ the REF 2 was really good in my system. Wonderful indeed. It was miles ahead the phono stage of the C1000P preamp who is not a "little" phono stage...
2/ About 15 persons went to listen to the Giscours LP playback and those people either compared the Ref 2 to the Giscours directly or had the memory of the vinyls they listened to in my home with the Ref 2. The comments of the REF 2 sound versus the Giscours were all extremely negative to the REF 2 and I will not mention the exact words they used.
3/ In a completely different system, a friend listened to the Giscours versus REF 5 SE and REF 2SE. Speakers were Tannoy Kingdom Royal. He told me that the Giscours killed the ARC gear for vinyl playback but he found it disappointing for digital : not as involving and live and real as vinyl. For digital he found more dynamics with the REF 5 SE but he said that he still preferred the Giscours because he could enjoy better even average recordings and the stereo image was more real with more depth.
4/ Honestly, the difference people who made the effort to listen to both ARC gear and Shindo for vinyl playback is so huge that I can assure you :
- no caps or power supply could make a "super REF 2" sound close to the Giscours
- when it is better at this level, it is BETTER in all systems, for all ears
- the only advantage of the Ref 2 is to be universal to most carts. The Giscours will need to use either MM carts or the MC carts with very low impedance and for other MC carts, a SUT will be necessary.
- if you are really serious about vinyl playback, you owe to yourself to listen just ONCE to a Giscours next to your ARC gear to understand what you are loosing with the ARC compared to the Giscours.

People like Keith Aschenbrenner who are analog and amplifiers gurus along the french team " L'Audiophile", who discovered Shindo 25 years ago all say the same thing : Vinyl playback cannot sound better than with a Shindo phono stage. They heard almost everything on the market. They tried to build their own. They all come to the same conclusion : you listen to a Shindo phono stage and the game is over with others. Shindo's knowledge on amplifying phono signals is unique and far far ahead anyone else.
Just listen for yourself and you will find out the same conclusion.

Only way for ARC to have one day a phono stage at the level of Shindo would be to hire him.

Jerome

Linked below is a great thread you started on AA which provided good insight on your process of selecting the clear audio TT. It was informative and provided detailed explanations behind your listening experience without wide sweeping generalizations. It also includes some great thoughts on how different people perceive "best" after reaching a certain level....you just have to read through page 3 to understand my point...in fact posts #15 and #21 by you are good reminders...

BTW....I use the LP12SE fully loaded with the Ref phono2SE

http://www.audioaficionado.org/turnt...-level-ii.html

Cheers and enjoy

[lotus340r]

Originally Posted by Juan

I'm curious about the performance of the TEAD Mastergroove against the ARC phono gear.
I never have the chance of hear the Ref 2SE, but I have a TEAD The Groove+ SRX and I have compared it against the ARC PH8. In my system, and with Lyra Kleos cartridge, the Tom Evans is superior to the ARC in terms of noise floor, dynamics, clarity, soundstage, emotion, etc. Certainly the ARC PH8 has "only" 58 db of gain to cope with my 0.5mv Lyra. BTW my line stage is an ARC LS26.

Hi Juan. As you know they are completely different designs. Just as you've said it, I would also say that the Mastergroove (and the SRX for that matter) are more precise, more resolving and blacker than the REF2 SE with greater dynamics and precisely locked in imagery.

The ARC REF2SE as a tubed design has a little more in the way of tonality, texture, dimensionality, richness etc. but I did feel that the Mastergroove was closer in these respects than the SRX so kind of scored very well all round. On balance the ARC was still fairly close to a very good solid state stage and didn't offer much over the Mastergroove whilst losing out to it in terms of speed,clarity, dynamics etc.

The Allnic though takes some of the above properties to an even greater level, especially the holography, the dense fullness of notes and instruments and a sense of unforced naturalness that makes the notion of electronics and equipment completely disappear from your mind. It does things the mastegroove simply cannot and thereby offers itself as a completely different and viable solution. For me, the net result is just more emotion and more enjoyment.

As others have said so much depends on personal choice and there are few wrong solutions at this level. Of course you need the right system to synergise and showcase these differing strengths and perhaps counterbalance some of the weaknesses as well, so I agree that its important to trial in your own home. If you are using Tom Evans with amplification or speakers which are etchy and hyper detailed then the result might be way off kilter. Conversely, if you use the tube stages with a system which can't image and layer properly then you are only hearing a small potential of what's going on. .. and so on, ad infinitum.