[plurn]

Originally Posted by stereoquest

Plurn,

What do you think is happening to the speakers driver when wired in or out of phase ? When the coil receives current in phase the driver is forced outward ...... Out of phase it is pulled inward . The two sound very different .

What I think is happening is pretty much as you describe except your conclusion that the two sound very different is debatable.

Originally Posted by stereoquest

With most Wilson speakers it will be more obvious becsuse the mid is wired out of phase with the bass driver .... Out of phase will cause loss of bass and accentuated treble in this speaker which is is easily heard..

What is concerning regarding the review is the reviewer does not actually know what product he has . He writes about the se model but clearly shows the standard version he then goes on to ' correct ' phase of the sub -- and leave the speakers out of phase ..... He does not know what he is doing but knows something is not right . I have never heard any tubed cj product ever have the traits he was referring to . He definitely got it badly wrong .

This does go back to my earlier questions that would be helpful if someone addressed. Lets take these Wilson speakers for example. If the mid is wired out of phase with the bass driver, which driver is in correct phase and which is inverted when the system is in correct phase? Are midrange frequencies or bass more important when it comes to phase? What we are saying here is that Wilson speakers are always playing music both inverted phase and correct phase at the same time. If you swap the plus and minus of the cables at the speakers, the Wilsons are still playing music both inverted phase and correct phase at the same time, just that midrange and the bass has taken turns of being in correct phase.

I found a Stereophile review of Wilson Maxx 3 speakers and they say this:

"The tweeter (the sharp up-down spike at 5.5ms) is connected in positive acoustic polarity, and the negative-going overshoot of its step smoothly blends into the step output of the midrange units, which are connected in inverted acoustic polarity. Their step in turn smoothly blends into the slower, later, positive-going arrival of the woofers' output."

They use the terms "positive acoustic polarity" and "inverted acoustic polarity" but these are equivalent to "correct phase" and "inverted phase".

So in the case of the Wilson Maxx 3, if you wire the speakers up in correct phase so that the positive electrical signal goes to the positive terminal on the speakers, your midrange would be in inverted phase (inverted acoustic polarity).

Does this mean Wilson thinks that the midrange does not need to be in correct phase but the bass and treble must be in correct phase? Isn't midrange more important for music - so the midrange should be in correct phase? These are not idle questions - I really really want your opinions on this as you are the ones that hear these differences in absolute polarity - please respond.

Where you say "Out of phase will cause loss of bass and accentuated treble in this speaker which is is easily heard.." well when the system is in correct phase, the wilson's midrange will have inverted phase so what happens to the midrange's sound in this situation? Will it cause loss of midrange or accentuated midrange - or just right :)

I do agree with you that I wish the reviewer took more care. I still don't think that the way he set up the phase would an issue, but it would have been best if he just did it the way CJ suggest, then if he still heard the same thing there would be less for us to complain about.

I think it would have been even better if, as soon as he heard something that sounded even remotely wrong with the frequency response, he actually arranged for it to be measured on the preamp itself with a load approximating the amplifier he was using. That way there is no question whether there is a frequency response issue with the tested device or not. If he doesn't have the skill for this, then find someone who does. We should probably question all reviews that fail in this way.

Originally Posted by turntable

Plurn, reverse the positive and negative connection on your speaker wire going into the speaker terminals and play some of the same music. Will take you less than one minute. You will easily hear something is wrong.

Cheers

Well - no I won't hear something is wrong. As I mentioned earlier "whether my system is set up phase correct or phase inverted does not change how bright the treble is. It certainly does not make a recording of someone that is breathing out, sound like they are breathing in. It does not even change the soundstage depth or width." I know this because I have tried this test (reversing the wiring at the speaker terminals) many times. Perhaps not valid testing since I have not done this particular test double blind. I have also tried a similar test by swapping the polarity of the signal my dac produces by remote control - this pretty much is a valid blind test because I can rapidly change the polarity multiple times in a way that I lose track and don't know what polarity is set. Then I can swap it instantly as many times as I want for as long as I want with many types of music. No difference detected. Certainly no differences big or obvious that people claim. Measuring the output of the dac with my computer confirms that the polarity changes when the polarity button is pressed.

And before anyone suggests it - no I don't have cloth for ears.

Shane, now that we have worked out your midrange drivers (in your Wilson Maxx 3) are playing in inverted phase, do they sound wrong to you? What about that singer that sounded like he was breathing in when he is supposed to be breathing out when played on an inverted system. You must get that all the time because that is all in the midrange, and your midrange drivers are playing in inverted phase all the time if your system is in correct phase. Sorry - I am being a jerk - I am sure your system sounds awesome. Just trying to make a point.

I guess the point I am making here is that hearing is not just the sound that is produced, it is a complex construction/interpretation by our brains that takes in not just the stimulus of the sound sensed by our ears, but also takes into account biases and expectations and suggestion and other stimulus such as sight, plus a whole lot of other complex processing. Everyone is influenced by these biases - me too.

If you expect correct phase to sound better, and your speakers are wired up so they are apparently in correct phase, it will likely sound better to you. But this may just be the expectation and knowledge that it is in correct phase that is making it sound better to you. If you had no knowledge of phase and did not know if your system was playing in correct or inverted phase, and you listened to it in correct phase and separately in inverted phase, you might not hear any difference at all.

If you expect correct phase to sound better, and you had your system playing in correct phase (or so you thought) but now you learn that it was not actually in correct phase because while the woofers and tweeters were in correct phase, the midrange drivers were in inverted phase - will your system sound worse (to your brain) than it did before you knew this disturbing fact? It might to your brain. Hopefully not though - it is the exact same system it was 20 minutes ago.

If you expect correct phase to not make any difference, then you might not hear any difference when a system is in correct phase or inverted. This could be me. Who can tell. Biases are unavoidable.

Anthony