PrimaLuna (original) Dialogue vs. Dialogue HP
 

Wanted to share a recent experience...

I have owned a PrimaLuna DiaLogue One for more than 6 years at this point, and absolutely love it. It was the bargain of the century and a real gem of an integrated. It is, in theory, an EL-34-based amp, but many other power tube types are compatible and tube-rolling is more than encouraged by both the manufacturer and the actual design of the unit. I have tried many different choices with it, but have settled with a quad of the new re-issue Gold Lion KT-88's, which after many a back-and-forth, I find offer the best possible balance between finesse/midrange magic and dynamics/control. I am actually using the DiaLogue One with Sonus faber Elipsa SE's (or "Red"), and, amazingly enough (and after a rocky start as the speakers were breaking in), the synergy is pretty great! Plus, I have a small room, so dynamics and slam are more than sufficient.

At one point I was concerned about headroom and efficiency, specially as the speakers were breaking-in and sound was a little uncontrolled. Sonus fabers are also famously difficult to drive and have a tricky impedance curve in the lower registries. Just to see if I was missing anything, I even tried a McIntosh integrated (retail $6K) and a Hegel H-160, both with FAR MORE theoretical and quoted power than the PrimaLuna, and, plain and simply, it wasn't even close. The DiaLogue One blew them all out of the water. No contest. I was in awe. I shared this experience here: http://www.audioaficionado.org/sonus...lish-room.html


Cut to a few weeks ago. I have been curious about the DiaLogue HP Integrated, which is getting rave reviews, and my dealer was kind enough to loan me one. This one came with EL-34's. I do not have 8 KT-88's to spare, so this was not an apples-to-apples comparison. Keep that in mind. I had all the intentions of buying the HP, and I could get a really good deal on it if I sell my DiaLogue One (they hold their value fairly well), so money was not really a concern here. I REALLY wanted to love the HP.

I will cut to the point: the DiaLogue One is staying. In fact, I preferred it BY FAR. For some reason, the HP was not as open, not as detailed, not as delicate, and not as "ripe" as the DiaLogue One. Amazingly enough, the difference when it came to dynamics and bass grip and control was minimal at best. Yes, it did have SLIGHTLY more control, but at the expense of everything else. The DiaLogue One, I would say, was a 7.9 in that department. The HP was an 8.5. Not worth the trade-off.

Of course, my DiaLogue One is more than broken-in. The HP was not. Also, I'm sure that if I were to use 8 KT-88's things may be different, but I frankly was not convinced that I needed to "upgrade". When I went back to the DiaLogue One, the soundstage was wider, and the midrange was just right. Bass was more than enough. Frankly, I was in shock.

Another thing to keep in mind: more tubes, more problems! More things that can go wrong. More heat (this was evident REALLY quickly in my small room here in South FL, where winter equals 75 degrees at night). More $$$ when it comes time to re-tube (after a few times, you can pretty much buy a new DiaLogue One with the amount it would cost to re-tube an HP with 14 (!) quality tubes).

I did notice one HUGE improvement in the HP, however, and that was the volume control and potentiometer. Dramatically more accurate, precise and smooth when using the remote. I was impressed by that.

But my DiaLogue One is staying. I love that thing more every day. Plus, my OCD tells me that it looks way cooler than the slightly-too-much-of-a-good-thing HP.

Figured I would share this with all of you!

Esteban.......That is an interesting review/comparison. I think the results may have been skewed somewhat for a couple of reasons. The most obvious one is the Dialogue HP was not broken in. I think after 100 hours or more of break-in the amplifier would present a different sonic signature than you experienced. In particular, PrimaLuna uses high-end caps that often require several hundred hours to achieve their best results. Second, if I read your review correctly, each amp had different tubes . That will always impact the sonic nature of an amplifier, even more so since the Dialogue HP tubes weren't broken in. And finally, it is apparent you have a long term love affair going with your DiaLogue. There's nothing wrong with that, but the rose colored glasses can make you more critical of the competition. You love your Dialogue and that can have a strong effect on your judgement when assessing the new kid on the block.

I am not trying to influence your judgement or decision. I only want to point out my initial impressions when I read your review. I have had some experience with PrimaLuna components and find them well designed and built to an excellent level of craftsmanship. I suspect if you to kept the HP around long enough to log 100+ hours on it your opinion might be different, not withstanding the additional heat you mentioned. That is something a small change in the air conditioning thermostat can solve easy enough. I enjoyed your reading your review.

Hi Dan. Thanks for your feedback! All points well taken. I did mention at the beginning of the review that it was not an apples-to-apples, and specified the tube differences and lack of break-in, as you commented. Having said that, even Kevin Deal (PrimaLuna US distributor) commented (in a different forum) that the differences between both units are really not earth-shattering. His words:

"The HP is the exact same amp as the DiaLogue Premium in every way, with these additions:

Larger power transformer, additional circuitry to add four more power tubes including an additional Adaptive AutoBias board, and the headphone amp which I will comment on later. The benefit is more power and a lower output impedance which will give it a little more slam and control. Not a ton more. But more.... The 36 watts that the DiaLogue Premium has is huge because we concern ourselves with bandwidth in the output transformers, not power... I'm really happy that (Esteban) loves his DiaLogue One so much after so many years. While other companies certainly want you on the merry go round burning cash, our desire is to create amps that are iconic and relevant 10, 20, or even 50 years from now. It makes me smile when I get calls from people ten years later that they are still happy.

Having said that, the new series DiaLogue have the exact same output transformers which is where the magic happens, but with a myriad of improvements that for sure will increase performance. In a side by side with the same tubes it will become apparent, but I'm going to tell you the original DiaLogue One, Two, ect were so good I thought we had painted ourselves into a corner. "

Esteban.......I know one thing. You have a very nice sound system, especially since you upgraded to the SF Elipsa Red. I am positive the PrimaLuna Dialogue One makes them sing their heart out. It has been nearly three years since I had the PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium integrated amplifier here for review. I still remember the experience and how impressed I was with it driving my Amati Anniversario's. Your PrimaLuna Dialog One is a step up from that integrated amp. It just may turn out that you are one of those PrimaLuna customers who will keep their amp for a quarter of a century or more. Here's to many hours of enjoyable listening.

Thank you, Dan! Trust me, I really wanted to buy the HP model, but I simply could not justify it after what I described in my post above. If it ain't broken... :)

Hey guys. At some point I will be using my Martin Logan odysseys in a second system and will need a second amp. Do you think the dialogue series could be used for a second system with the stats given their impedance curve at 20khz. ?

Tim.......Are you speaking of a very low impedance at 20KHz? I saw the impedance curve for the Martin Logan Prodogy in a Stereophile review. The impedance was 2 ohms at 12KHz and dropped from there to 1 ohm at 20KHz. Is the impedance curve for the Odyssey similar?

Yes Dan. The odyssey is the little brother of the prodigy. I can't say for sure if it is identical but it is the same series and one step below the prodigy. I currently drive ithemwith a Sunfire signature bi-amped And to be clear in not looking for that type of horsepower on a second system but wonder if the dialogue could keep it together and do the system justice

Tim.......Here is an interesting review of the PrimaLuna Dialogue One.

primaluna dialogue one

I like that review Dan. :). I have been ogling the prima luna gear for awhile and when I make my next move want an affordable quality amp preferably of different characteristics than my solid state amp. It looks like this little integrated could fill that.

Tim.......In case you missed it, you might want to read my PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium Integrated Amplifier Review

Hola Esteban cómo va?

Just a thought. Is there any chance that somewhere along the line, the dealer (very cool gentleman it seems) could lend you the HP again? I mean, after say 150 hours and maybe with him having tinkered a bit with different tubes?

Un abrazo
Fernando

Esteban... Interesting comparison and conclusions. I will say that my PL HP sounded dramatically different with KT120's vice the EL34's. I did not like the stock EL34's with my Sonus Faber's...sound was weak in the bass and the tone was somehow "off". The KT120's were a vast improvement.

Between the tubes and being not broken in, I suggest not writing off the HP just yet...

Ditto.

The KT120s were phenomenal on the Premium HP.

Interesting... So do the type of tubes make more of a difference, or taking the time to burn in the amp overall? Or both?

I thought burning in the EL34s was a very gradual process. The KT120s was like a WOW when I swapped them over.

Some say that the KT150s are an even bigger improvement...

Perhaps...when I talked to Kevin Deal, he said that the KT120's and KT150's were pretty equivalent sound wise, with the 150's having a bit more power. I would love to try the comparison myself, but at almost $100 a tube (~$800 a set for my HP), that gets pretty expensive.

Brought my PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Integrated home last night and hooked it up to my main system, replacing the McIntosh C2300 and MC601's. The PL is outfitted with KT120's and Brimar 12AU7's for the driver tubes. I ran everything in triode mode so only 45 watts per channel were available.

It was an interesting comparison. Soundstaging, especially for vocals, was more laid back and "distant" with the PL, with greater space being presented. Low level details in the plucking of strings or percussion strikes were easier to hear. Generally more detail was evident...not what I expected.

With only 45 watts on hand, the bass seemed not to go as deep, but what was present was punchy, full-sounding and with very good tonal detail. Rocking to AC/DC Thunderstruck just did not have the drive or deep bass that the MC601's could deliver. That was expected. Interesting, however, that in all more "mellow" music I listened to, I never missed the extra wattage.

The PL was less forgiving of poorly recorded material, another small surprise. The aforementioned AC/DC track is a little bright and the PL did not cover that up. Cranking it on the McIntosh equipment is just simply fun, and without any listening fatigue. Doing the same on the PL just led me to turning the volume back down. Now, this may have something to do with distortion due to lack of power, so I cannot completely fault the PL amp.

I will play around more this weekend and will update my thoughts on the comparison. At this point, however, I am quite impressed with how a $4500 tube integrated can compete sonically with much higher priced gear, and that the PL was not embarrassed driving the Sonus Faber Elipsa SE's. Gotta admit that, if the integrated can sound so good, how would a Dialogue Premium Preamp and HP monoblock amps sound?!?

Thanks for sharing your experience! Some really interesting finds. I also have the Elipsa SE's, but I drive them with the "regular" DiaLogue One and, at the moment, EL-34 tubes. Stock Chinese Shuguang tubes, for the mighty sum of $60 per quad! And they sound great! Also had a fantastic experience with the Gold Lion KT-88's. I encourage you to try your HP with either or, and in ultra-linear mode. I think you may get some of the bass slam you are currently missing while preserving a lot of what impressed you about the HP. Look forward to hearing more of your thoughts!

Round 2: PrimaLuna HP integrated vs. McIntosh C2300/MC601

This will be short. The PL integrated simply sounds more like real instruments in real space. More air. Better detail. Deeper soundstage. Better separation of each instrument. Vocals have more body. Much better microdynamics (plucking of strings especially).

The Mac gear still sounds wonderful, but the soundstage is quite flat. The more powerful amps do seem to dig a bit deeper. This combo seems slightly more forgiving. Better at rocking out, especially with more poorly recorded heavy metal (the more forgiving nature keeps the ears from bleeding at higher volume levels).

This makes me even more want to try the DiaLogue Premium preamp and HP monoblock amps. Would the doubling in power over the integrated lead to deeper bass? Some KT150's for power tubes and NOS Mullards for the preamp driver tubes?

Gotta find a way to audition that setup with my Elipsa SE's.

Nice, thanks for the review!

I was worried that I was on Crack or simply going insane. Comparing a Chinese made, relatively inexpensive tube integrated to a stalwart of American audiophile goodness? And have the integrated come out ahead?!? What's wrong with me?!?!?

So, I had to do it again. I brought the PrimaLuna HP integrated back home and redid the comparison. We'll put it this way...my wife, from across the room and cooking dinner spoke out while I was listening to say that my stereo had never sounded better.

Round two of the comparison basically confirmed round one. Better detail, soundstage width and depth, and MUCH better imaging when using the PrimaLuna. This just shouldn't be due to cost differences and audiophile pedigree, but "it is what it is".

Well, now I am smitten and will be looking HARD at the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp and HP monoblock amps. The McIntosh equipment, despite its beauty, reputation and quality, may be going away...

Thank you for sharing your experience, Kevin. I am another happy PrimaLuna owner (for almost 7 years now). You may find this post (from a different thread) of interest:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/sonus...tml#post714838

PrimaLuna (original) Dialogue vs. Dialogue HP
 

Another happy, very happy PrimaLuna owner here. I still remember driving up to Ivan's Parkland Campus almost 3 years ago to adopt my Dialogue Premium Integrated Amp with KT-120s. Although I have not found it wanting in any way, I just ordered and will have on Friday a pair of Brimar 12AU7 tubes to try. My PL drives Theil CS2.3 loudspeakers really well, and give them bass I never knew they had before I got the PL.

I am also using the Brimar's and they are a fantastic tube. Very neutral but still with a nice midrange. The K120/Brimar 12AU7 pairing is excellent and I hope you will like them as much as I.

Me too. Thanks

As much as my OCD temps me to sell my DiaLogue Premium integrated, I cannot bring myself to do so.

My wife has essentially claimed that rig and when she sees me moving gear in and out the house I am warned NOT to touch "her" amp! This comes from someone who is TOTALLY disinterested in my hobby/sickness. :D

I'm really loving the PrimaLuna gear. Just got the DiaLogue Premium Preamp and monoblock HP amps. Absolutely terrific sound. Even though I am still breaking it all in, it is the best my system has ever sounded. Amazing sound quality for the money. Makes me realize how overpriced and overhyped a LOT of audiophile gear is.

Greg.......I can relate to that, especially for one who isn't necessarily an "audiophile" but enjoys good music. There are only two knobs on the DiaLogue Premium integrated amp, Input and Volume. That's perfect for someone who doesn't want to be overloaded with a myriad of switches, button, and knobs just to enjoy listening to their favorite music. That amplifier not only sounds good, it has a unique appearance that is attractive in its simplicity. Your wife has good taste.

Thanks Dan - she does. I'm still trying to figure out how she ended up with me though!!:D

I just received my PL dialogue hp integrated with EL34s. Can't wait to hook this up! This thing is a beast.... weighs almost as much as one of my speakers.

Congratulations!!!! :)

Congrats. Please post pics of your setup with speakers.

I have a few questions below:

1) How long has the the current model been out (DiaLogue Premium Integrated)?

2) What is the typical life of the tubes?

I know this thread is a bit old. But a couple of questions. Has anyone tried the PL HP amp in stereo mode and then moved to mono block mode by buying a second one? Is it a knee shaker? Or is it just a wee bit better?

Kevin you moved to the mono blocks from the integrated - you said it was terrific but I didn't see your comparison. Maybe I missed it.

timm,

Unfortunately I have not made the comparison between stereo and monoblock in my system. I have always been a fan and proponent of monoblock configuration for amps so just went that route initially. I will say that I have had ZERO regrets in going from my McIntosh equipment to the PrimaLuna. My system has never sounded better.

I have not started tube rolling for the power tubes yet, and am still using the stock EL34's. I keep thinking about the TungSol KT150's but they are pricey, especially as I would need 16 of them. The TungSol 7581A tubes also look like a very interesting consideration. I'll definitely post some comments if and or when I make the change.

Anybody audition the DiaLogue Premium/HP with B&W 803D3? I had a combo of 2600/452 (McIntosh before).

I auditioned DiaLogue Premium (I think) about 4 years ago with the Kef LS50 and it was fantastic but during that time I was new to audio and didn't care for the look when the salesman was giving me info.

I spent time with the Dialogue Premium HP Int Amp with my 800D2s. I also tried a couple other tube amps and came to the conclusion that they like big SS amps. Ended up running mine with the 452. YMMV

+1

I sold my McIntosh C2300 and MC302 for my PL Dialogue Premium Preamp and PL Dialogue Premium HP Amplifier, the system consist of the aforementioned PL components plus PS Audio Directstream DAC, OPPO 203 Blu-ray, Custom stand alone full Solid State Mini Computer running ROON, Full MIT cabling and Isotek Aquarius conditioner running Klipsch Cornwall III Special Edition Indian Rosewood. After years of searching I have found my sound, the system is so smooth with life like dynamics that it can be startling. Once I have enough post I will be able to upload pics.