Vibration-Resistant Turntables
 

Rather than put this in my "Curiosity" thread, I figured it may be best to start a new thread here. Even if I buy something it won't be before the holidays are over and my bank account recovers to my satisfaction; plus, there is competition for upgrade dollars from the SACD and speaker sides also. Nevertheless, I have begun researching turntables, with the idea of perhaps replacing my 25.5 year-old VPI HW19-Mk IV. I've been somewhat smitten by the Pro-Ject Xtension 10, and watched this video multiple times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpqsZRBsSlA

But what I was reminded of is that I live in an apartment with a suspended floor (or whatever it's called), so footfalls are a significant issue. This was brought back to me when playing a record on my VPI last week. Another TT line I thought about was SOTA, because it would be a good match for an SME 309 arm. Changing the belt looks to be a bit of a pain, so I was going to move on. But I came across this, also on YouTube, which renewed some interest in the SOTA line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOztpKjv8Hk

Which other brands (if any) offer good isolation from footfalls and such?

You can also approach this from the "vibration isolation" angle. Wall mounts, isolation platforms like ginkgo cloud, etc... That opens up a bunch more choices in turntables rather than choosing one with best isolation built in. Don't know how bad your footfall problem is but even something inexpensive like this may be enough. https://www.amazon.com/Auralex-Acous.../dp/B00SZ3J4IS

I concur with Serge, generally speaking 'wall mount' is the way to go. My son did it with his rig to 100% satisfaction !

Thanks for the link, PCH1. The Auralex looks good, but it's too small, unfortunately. The VPI I have measures 19.125" wide at the feet; the overall table is 20.25" wide. But perhaps someone sells a similar platform that's wider (and deeper, to be safe; the VPI would just make it depth-wise). On that, the Gingko models look promising, but I'd have to get past paying so much for something that may not work. And since I rent, I don't know if management here would be crazy about holes being drilled in their wall.

As usual, everything comes down to research. But that research is enhanced with helpful suggestions like the Auralex, as it put me on another path to explore.

holes go into studs, when you leave and take your platform down a few dabs of sparkling compound and your done !

Vibration-Resistant Turntables
 

As others have said, a wall bracket does wonders eliminating problems from footfalls on sprung floors. Quadraspire makes excellent and attractive wall systems, and Ivan is a dealer.

https://quadraspire.co.uk/wall-brackets.html

I have an Xtension 10 in a room with a suspended floor and find it is quite immune to footfall issues compared to the Technics Direct Drive table it replaced.
I keep mine on a cabinet rather than a wall mount. My understanding of wall mounts is that they work best on a load bearing wall but I have no practical experience with one. Best of luck!

That's almost what I have to do!

Speaking of Pro-Ject(!), they offer the attached. I don't know what the price given on the PDF translates into, but the Ground it Carbon is meant to handle almost any turntable, and would be a good match for the Xtension 10 if I went that route. It would even fit my VPI.

Here it is. http://www.pro-jectusa.com/en-us/pro...ound-it-carbon

This is encouraging. Looking at my room, a wall mount isn't practical so I'd need to rely on a turntable that can resist vibration or an isolation platform of some kind. Good to hear that the Xtension 10 has some resistance to footfalls. This is almost as important as sound. In fact, I'd consider any TT that was good at resisting vibration an upgrade even if sound quality was the same as I have now.

Again, though, I have other possible changes/upgrades I'm considering and this could morph into a SACD or speaker move instead of the TT (I've looked at possible SACD replacements, in fact). Of the three, my Mirage M-3si speakers would be the toughest to give up, because I really like them. They're 24.5 years old but still good. Still, that Xtension 10 looks nice, even if I'd have to learn how to install a cartridge on my own; the Xtension 12 can be had with an Ortofon arm with a removable headshell :yes:, but that's over $2K more than the package with the Evolution arm :no:.

Thanks very much for sharing that, it's an interesting isolation base using a combination of carbon fiber, damping and magnetic isolation which I was previously unaware of. Seems pretty reasonably priced at $899 US. :scratch2:

The last time I hooked up my turntable to see if I wanted to get back into vinyl, I had the turntable on a table and I walked over to the preamp to adjust the volume which was NOT playing loudly. Upon taking my second or third step from the TT to the preamp, the needle bounced, I heard a bang, had a brief earthquake in the room, blew a fuse in the IRS and decided I should stay with digital!

After researching a bit further into the Pro-Ject Ground It Carbon base I'm afraid it might not be suitable for my analog setup. Magnetic isolation suspension designs generally have to be designed with a target supported weight range in mind, otherwise they can be a mismatch which will be ineffective and possibly even bottom out. The heaviest Pro-Ject table seems to be in the 45 lb range and my Nottingham Dais is closer to 100 lbs hence my concern about suitability. If anyone has any further specifics in this regard I would welcome the input, TIA.

Every room is different. My Technics skipped from footfalls or even a slammed door when my kids were still at home. I put floor jacks under the joists in my basement to mitigate the vibrations but still had some issues. Since I’ve switched to the Project I’ve had zero issues or complaints of any kind. I think it sounds and looks great. I appreciate the integrated dustcover.
I keep my system in my living room and a wall mount wasn’t something I wanted to deal with either.
I do miss a removable headshell but don’t change cartridges very often so it isn’t the biggest issue. I just pick a day when I’m not rushed and don’t drink too much coffee first lol!
Best of luck!

I contacted Pro-Ject through their website to inquire about the suitable turntable weight range to be used with their magnetically suspended Ground It Carbon base, and will share their response when I receive it.

My turntable is in a built in isolated from the floor

I received a prompt response to my inquiry, and it confirms what I suspected regarding its limited effectiveness with a table of 100 lbs like my Nottingham.

"The factory replied that 100lbs is OK, but not ideal. The weight will compress the suspension, but not damage the magnets. So, the decoupling of the mass will be limited, but still the advantage of the carbon support."

I haven't found any info on the Gingko platforms regarding weight capacity yet, but perhaps they'd be an alternative. They seem large enough, depending upon which one you choose, and in many cases are less expensive than the platform offered by Pro-ject.

And, I've just realized that the demonstration by "Dr. Carl" in the second link from my first post is a mod he performed, it seems. So maybe the SOTA isn't as vibration-resistant as once thought. Still, SOTA tables are known for their suspension systems, so maybe I should still look at them.

My system is mounted on a very rigid Target stand which is on spiked feet, and the top turntable platform has its own spiked isolation all in a room on a solid slab. So I'm not experiencing any vibrational issues or problems with footfalls, just always thought I'd like to try a magnetic suspension if given the opportunity.

Ginko platform carrying capacity is determined by the number of balls used. Each ball suspends 10 pounds of weight optimally (up to around 20 pounds per). Add more balls as determined by your equipment weight.

Call Mr Vu and he'll get you set up.

Had one years ago - worked well, but IIRC the TT still had some springiness to it from footfalls, but; better than just being on the credenza.

Best Sirs,

Bob

I will keep this in mind going forward.

Perhaps one reason I don't play records much, other than the time factor, is the footfall issue. I think that's driving this search for something better suited to my circumstances. If I balk and choose to move on SACD or speakers instead I could still get a platform for the current VPI and see if that helps; it weighs around 60 lbs.

I still favor a detachable headshell (spoiled by my SME 309), which takes me to Pro-ject's Signature line. The Signatures don't come with a dustcover, adding to the TT's cost (bummer). There are the "SuperPack" versions, with cartridge, and the Signature 10 SuperPack is $7K; the regular Signature 10 (no cartridge) is $6K. That's still a lot, and I don't know if I'd play enough records to justify that expense. The Xtension 10 SuperPack, on the other hand, is $4K and the Xtension 12 SuperPack is $5K, both WITH dustcover. If I can get past the lack of a removable headshell I will do better. I'm not there yet.

Time will tell if I feel more strongly about my TT, SACD, or speakers. I can't afford to do them all; it's probably one or none. But I do like the idea of the Xtension 10 so far, as it seems to have good vibration-resistance.

I've sent an e-mail off to Sumiko, Pro-Ject's USA distributor, asking about additional costs involved in substituting an Ortofon TA-110 or SME 309 arm on the Xtension 10, as I really do prefer the detachable headshell. We'll see what they say.

Meantime, I'd forgotten about the Sotas. I'm keeping an eye on them too, namely the Sapphire and this Star/Nova.

Well, I got a reply from Sumiko. The Xtension 10 comes with the Evolution arm only. If I want a different arm I'd have to go to the Xtension 12, where I could choose no arm or select Ortofon arms (not much discount with no arm, however). The TA-110 on an Xtension 12 would run me about $4400 and represents a custom order; it would take three to four months to get it.

A follow-up e-mail from Pro-Ject reveals that vibration resistance is about the same between the Xtension 10 and 12, since they're about the same weight. The main advantage to the 12 is the 12" arm. Aren't longer arms supposed to track better, or something like that?

The Ortofon TA-110 and 210 are supposed to have good vibration damping due in part to the rubber compound inserted into the arm. The 110 is a 9" arm, so theoretically the 210 is better. So if money isn't a big issue by the time I'm ready, it looks like an Xtension12 with a 210 arm. But I like the look of the 110 a bit better.

12" arms have lower tracing distortion than 9" arms. I love my 12" arm.
They generally have higher effective mass, so you should check to make sure your cartridge is compatible.
There is a calculator on the vinyl engine website that will tell if you if you have an ideal combination.
You are looking for an arm-cartridge resonant frequency between 8 Hz and 11 Hz. Any lower and footfalls are amplified, any higher and the bass gets flabby.

Mass is your friend if you are having footfall issues. The rotating mass of my turntable is 50 pounds. That's just the platter mind you, the rest of the turntable weighs more.

Good luck on your journey!

Tom

It is a journey. Well spoken. And it just got more complicated. I've mentioned I was also considering SACD and speaker changes; I went to the NY Audio Show yesterday and came away with the knowledge that I can get a Marantz SA-10 for a really good price, and I still want Legacy Focus SE speakers, though Bryston Model Ts would be good substitutes. I cannot do all three; I'd have to empty my bank account (literally).

I also explore an isolation platform for my current (or future) TT and have been in contact with Gingko. That could be a short-term action (provided it works) while I try to fix my head and make sensible decisions going forward.

It's sure hard to make these tradeoffs! Your existing turntable is no slouch so trying some additional isolation would open up funds for other upgrades.

I have ordered a Cloud 11 for VPI Classic from Gingko. This will at least delay if not eliminate the hunt for a new TT if it works or at least mitigates the problem. I corresponded with Vinh Vu of Gingko via e-mail, and the agreement was that this particular platform will work as far as supporting my HW-19 Mk.IV. I'm also to be getting a couple of extra balls to increase its capacity to 80 lbs, just in case (it comes with six, meaning it supports 60 lbs).

I'm to allow four weeks for delivery; Mr. Vu said he will make sure the platform arrives within that time, as I'm headed south for the holidays 12/18.

I had a Gingko platform under my Superscoutmaster and it made a very substantial difference.
You will not be disappointed and the value for money improvement is high.

Then I look forward to seeing what the Gingko will do with my VPI even more.

I've got a suspended wood floor, and though it's not nearly as lightweight and springy as a typical residential suspended floor (it's in an old commercial building), it can still pose issues like footfalls, feedback at high volumes, etc.

I went first from a SOTA Star on a crappy rack, to a Clearaudio Innovation on same crappy rack, and now finally to a Innovation Master on an obscenely exotic rack (CMS Maxxum). Looking back, I think my original Innovation upgrade was held back a lot by that old rack. It was still an upgrade in many ways, but the SOTA handled the environmental challenges a LOT better. Filling the old rack's legs with lead shot damped some of the high frequency ringing, but didn't help at all with the other stuff. Placing a maple platform under the table helped a little but, but not a lot. I feel that a mass loaded turntable should have a rigid support structure underneath it -- so I investigated the Gingko route, but never pulled the trigger. The high-end rack has cured all my ills, but then...$$$$$.

SOTAs are great for challenging scenarios! I probably would've been better off with a new SOTA Cosmos over the Innovation Wood, until I could get that CMS rack.

I had been looking at SOTAs but got fixed on the Pro-Jects, as changing belts on the SOTAs seemed to be a pain. However, if I'm willing to go refurbished rather than new, I could get a Cosmos and put an SME 309 on it. I could live with that, I think! I'd just double-check the measurements to be sure it fits my rack.

Speaking of that, I thought about my racks based on your post. They're only Sanus Euros, which was what I could afford. Who knows, perhaps I'll look for something else at some point, but for now I have what I have.

While I'm thinking about the racks and looking at my wallet, I might not be able to go further than the Salamander Synergy line. The Sanus Euros are great, in that their modular construction is both flexible and stylish. However, I think they're not all that sturdy in my situation. I can thump them near the top and they'll vibrate some. Footfalls don't bother my other equipment, just the turntable.

I'm hoping the Gingko platform comes soon, that may tell some tales for me. If the Gingko doesn't help my VPI, then I guess I'll look to the equipment racks next.

The Gingko arrived today. Here it is in its box. I don't know if I'll get a chance to set it up, as this means reconfiguring both the rack and my C2300 also, and I may not have time to do that before heading out for the holidays on Monday. Perhaps it will help stability of the Euro rack to shorten it some; I can do that by making the middle shelf a 5-incher; that will take 3" off the height. I will then be going over to the preamp's phonostage, which means re-tubing the MM section and removing my Aragon 47k from the setup. Then, of course, setting up the Gingko and putting my VPI on top of it and seeing how things go.

My best chance to do all that anytime soon is probably Sunday, but at some point I'd need to begin prep for the next day's flight out. So, all this audio stuff may well wait until I get back from down south.

Brief update: The Gingko arrived 12/15, but when I opened the box, one of the corners on the platform had suffered damage in shipping. I e-mailed Vinh Vu and we had a nice exchange. We even spoke by phone (he called me!). The upshot is, when I get back from vacation (which is where I am now) I'll set up the Cloud 11 and see if it solves or helps the footfall problem. If not, I can return the Cloud 11 and that's it. If I keep it, then Mr. Vu would either send me a new platform (I could just chuck the defective one) or walk me through glueing the broken-off piece back on; I also could keep the platform as is with a $100 discount, as performance isn't impacted by the defect. There's even a chance he'd come by personally and check things out, as he has a daughter in Brooklyn he'd need to drop off. That's nice of him, but I'd have to clean up! There are other options beyond the Cloud 11 for improving stability and rigidity, apparently.

I might explore spikes for the rack while I'm at it as well. I'm not sure if Sanus Euro racks have the option.

One more data point for you. xtension 10 owner here with it sitting on a fairly cheap rack. No problems with vibrations, that I know of anyway... The feet on this TT are great isolators. This includes people dancing around the room while its playing.

You might enjoy this, then. I've watched it multiple times. I'd prefer a detachable headshell, but was told I'd have to go to the Xtension 12 to get that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpqsZRBsSlA

I installed the Cloud 11 on Wednesday and have played a couple of LPs so far. On the first one there was what sounded like a footfall-related skip, but it was followed immediately by the stylus being stuck in the groove, so I'm not ready to conclude that a footfall was the culprit.

I'm hoping to play a few more LPs this weekend (two is a small sample) and see if anything develops. I might clean that first record from Wednesday and play it again to see if there's a change. My inclination, unless something significant emerges, is to keep the Cloud 11 and take Mr. Vu up on his gracious offer of a new platform (a corner broke off the one I have during shipping) or keeping the current one for a discount.

One challenge here is to resist the instinctive tendency to tread gingerly when walking; that's not a true test for the Cloud 11.

Ok. Since the previous post I've played four more LPs, and experienced no footfall issues. I tried not to walk around too gingerly, and was better with that yesterday. I have decided to keep the Gingko Cloud 11, and Mr. Vu has agreed graciously to replace the damaged top platform, per his earlier offer. I think the broken platform would mess with me whenever I thought of it.

Does this rule out replacing the VPI Mk. IV? No, but it does mean I don't have to be in a hurry about it. Besides, my wallet will be a major factor in that, as I have other more important things to address. Still, if things go well and money agrees later in the year (doubtful at the moment), I might well go for a SOTA or Pro-Ject.