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-   -   Bryston Active System - Critical Planning (https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=43759)

Masterlu 09-09-2018 12:29 PM
Bryston Active System - Critical Planning
 
I decided to start a new thread for my Bryston Active System. This system will begin later this month, and I will post photos and comments here.

Robc33 09-09-2018 06:30 PM
I'm sure it will be First Class all the way! I look forward to pix.

Soundmig 09-09-2018 09:51 PM
Will this be Bryston Speakers and electronics? Will the speakers be w/o the passive crossovers and use external amps and active crossovers (all Bryston I'm sure)? Or ???? I've not really kept up with Bryston's recent offerings, so I apologize if he questions are a bit pedantic, but .... I'm curious as I am running active using a Bryston 10B-LR x-over on the mains as well as another speaker controller (for Bass) - awesome piece that Bryston is :-)

Masterlu 09-09-2018 10:12 PM
It will be all Bryston Electronics, Active Speakers (no internal x/o) and BAX-1 Active DSP Crossover. Three discrete channels per side via 21B3 Amplifiers with 1900 Watts total per speaker @ 4 ohms.

1x 900W into 4Ω / Woofers
2x 500W into 4Ω / Mids & Highs

http://www.bryston.com/products/acti..._T_Active.html

http://www.bryston.com/products/active/21B-3.html

http://www.bryston.com/products/active/BAX-1.html

Soundmig 09-10-2018 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu (Post 930857)
It will be all Bryston Electronics, Active Speakers (no internal x/o) and BAX-1 Active DSP Crossover. Three discrete channels per side via 21B3 Amplifiers with 1900 Watts total per speaker @ 4 ohms.

1x 900W into 4Ω / Woofers
2x 500W into 4Ω / Mids & Highs

http://www.bryston.com/products/acti..._T_Active.html

http://www.bryston.com/products/active/21B-3.html

http://www.bryston.com/products/active/BAX-1.html
That ought to rock the house :thumbsup:

2fastdriving 09-10-2018 01:10 AM
This is a really interesting undertaking, Ivan. I didn't know about Brystons active products. I'm sure it will be a winner.

JemHadar 09-10-2018 03:16 AM
looking forward to how this adventure will unfold

GeAllan70 09-10-2018 09:07 AM
:lurk:

Soundmig 09-10-2018 09:58 AM
Ivan ... I see that the BAX-1 x-over points (and I presume other parameters) are set at the factory for the Bryston Speaker. Do you know if they make a version (or if this version) is consumer programmable so that it can be used with other speakers for those of us who like to dabble in building our own?

Masterlu 09-10-2018 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundmig (Post 930905)
Ivan ... I see that the BAX-1 x-over points (and I presume other parameters) are set at the factory for the Bryston Speaker. Do you know if they make a version (or if this version) is consumer programmable so that it can be used with other speakers for those of us who like to dabble in building our own?
No, they do not.

James Tanner - Bryston 09-10-2018 01:55 PM
Generic Active Crossovers vs Bryston BAX-1 Crossover

Hi Folks,

The above comments on the Bryston BAX-1 Active Crossover has motivated me to write this short explanation.

Can the Bryston BAX-1 Electronic Crossover be used with other active or passive loudspeakers? The short answer is ‘NO’ due to a very critical design factor regarding how ‘loudspeaker drivers’ and ‘passive or active crossovers’ interrelate with one another.

Generic active electronic crossovers provide the customer with a 'generic' approach to speaker adjustments. By that I mean you can choose the slope and the crossover point and sometimes the Q but they do not take into account the ‘Sound Power’ or total radiated energy of the speaker. ‘Sound Power’ is the result of the loudspeakers radiation pattern into the listening room.

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘Room’ and the loudspeakers ‘Sound Power’. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any loudspeaker.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:
When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is referred to as the ‘Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room.

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even.

CROSSOVERS:
So when you design a ‘Passive’ or ‘Active’ crossover for a specific speaker you are attempting to achieve the best Sound Power possible. Generic crossovers have their place but recognize that without sophisticated anechoic chambers and very specialized measuring tools getting the ‘on and off' axis as smooth as possible with the various drivers and speaker cabinets out there is not an easy task.

The Bryston BAX-1 Active Electronic Crossover on the other hand is designed with a specific Bryston speaker in mind (Model T, Middle T and Mini T) We design and manufacture all our own drivers as well to facilitate optimizing the sound power. The Model T has different software than the Middle T and the Mini T has different software again. The reason for that is we put each of the Model T's in our anechoic camber and we make over 300 measurements but vertically and horizontally around the speaker and adjust the software to provide as accurate as possible the best ‘Sound Power’ for the specific Model T speaker.

Hope this helps explain it a bit.

Sorry this went on a bit longer than I planned.

james

Soundmig 09-10-2018 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston (Post 930929)
Generic Active Crossovers vs Bryston BAX-1 Crossover

Hi Folks,

The above comments on the Bryston BAX-1 Active Crossover has motivated me to write this short explanation.

Can the Bryston BAX-1 Electronic Crossover be used with other active or passive loudspeakers? The short answer is ‘NO’ due to a very critical design factor regarding how ‘loudspeaker drivers’ and ‘passive or active crossovers’ interrelate with one another.

Generic active electronic crossovers provide the customer with a 'generic' approach to speaker adjustments. By that I mean you can choose the slope and the crossover point and sometimes the Q but they do not take into account the ‘Sound Power’ or total radiated energy of the speaker. ‘Sound Power’ is the result of the loudspeakers radiation pattern into the listening room.

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘Room’ and the loudspeakers ‘Sound Power’. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any loudspeaker.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:
When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is referred to as the ‘Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room.

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even.

CROSSOVERS:
So when you design a ‘Passive’ or ‘Active’ crossover for a specific speaker you are attempting to achieve the best Sound Power possible. Generic crossovers have their place but recognize that without sophisticated anechoic chambers and very specialized measuring tools getting the ‘on and off' axis as smooth as possible with the various drivers and speaker cabinets out there is not an easy task.

The Bryston BAX-1 Active Electronic Crossover on the other hand is designed with a specific Bryston speaker in mind (Model T, Middle T and Mini T) We design and manufacture all our own drivers as well to facilitate optimizing the sound power. The Model T has different software than the Middle T and the Mini T has different software again. The reason for that is we put each of the Model T's in our anechoic camber and we make over 300 measurements but vertically and horizontally around the speaker and adjust the software to provide as accurate as possible the best ‘Sound Power’ for the specific Model T speaker.

Hope this helps explain it a bit.

Sorry this went on a bit longer than I planned.

james
James ... I agree with what you have to say, but I think you underestimate the products that are out there (actually you problably know about all of them) and the DIYer's that use them. Available speaker controllers control far more than crossover slope, frequency and Q. Also, Acoustic measurement tools available to the hobbyist are far more sophisticated than they were a few years ago ... AND a person designing his/her speaker for his/her room has the ability to tune a large number of parameters specifically to the room and even the listening position.... That having been said, I have yet to hear a digital speaker controller (fancy x-over) that I liked the sound of above say 200 Hz. I have a feeling that the Bryston will be a different story as you guys make great sounding gear :thumbsup: I understand and respect your decision to NOT give the consumer control over such a device as the BAX-1, but ... there are a lot of very talented and knowledgable people out there making some great sounding speakers at home - much to their spouse's shagrin:scratch2: A Bryston quality digital speaker controller would be interesting to play with - although many of us DIYers may not fork over the coin (just being realistic). BTW - love the Bryston gear and even have a 10B-LR personally - which does a great job in my main system dividing frequencies between my mid-bass drivers and tweeters :thumbsup:

James Tanner - Bryston 09-10-2018 06:27 PM
Hi Soundmig,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.

The problem is that these measuring systems and using gating techniques etc. are fine for nearfield direct on and off axis measurements but they can not measure the reflected energy with anywhere near he same accuracy as an anechoic chamber.

And the number of measurements necessary to fully understand the sound power and the adjustments needed to be made can be overwhelming.

james

Soundmig 09-10-2018 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston (Post 930968)
Hi Soundmig,

Thank you for your kind comments - much appreciated.

The problem is that these measuring systems and using gating techniques etc. are fine for nearfield direct on and off axis measurements but they can not measure the reflected energy with anywhere near he same accuracy as an anechoic chamber.

And the number of measurements necessary to fully understand the sound power and the adjustments needed to be made can be overwhelming.

james
Must be exhausting :yes:

James Tanner - Bryston 09-11-2018 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundmig (Post 931013)
Must be exhausting :yes:
Hi

Yes it is very time consuming - can take 100 hours or more per speaker to dial it in and then there are the blind listening tests after the the fact to ensure which 'family of curves' is preferred.

james

James Tanner - Bryston 09-11-2018 06:51 AM
What are the 'Family of Curves"?

The family of curves is made up of amplitude response measurements taken in a sphere around the speaker in an anechoic environment. The performance you hear in your room is a summation of this family of curves in varying degrees of weighting.

In the design of each Bryston speaker we begin with anywhere from 120 to 300 measurements depending on the size of the speaker. From there each curve is considered both individually and as groups with particular algorithms applied to each curve in the group and then each group against the whole.

From this collection of measurements we published the Bryston Listening Window and Sound Power curves for each product.

james

PS - I sent Ivan a pic of a sample of this measurement so he can post it.

Masterlu 09-11-2018 10:43 AM
1 Attachment(s)
Family of Curves

Masterlu 09-11-2018 03:14 PM
1 Attachment(s)
The First wave of Electronics has arrived. :)

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1536693261

Robc33 09-11-2018 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu (Post 931106)
The First wave of Electronics has arrived. :)

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1536693261
As Flounder, from Animal House, would say... "OH BOY IS THIS GREAT"!

GeAllan70 09-11-2018 06:57 PM
^^^

+1

:thumbsup:

gbaby 09-11-2018 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston (Post 930929)
Generic Active Crossovers vs Bryston BAX-1 Crossover

Hi Folks,

The above comments on the Bryston BAX-1 Active Crossover has motivated me to write this short explanation.

Can the Bryston BAX-1 Electronic Crossover be used with other active or passive loudspeakers? The short answer is ‘NO’ due to a very critical design factor regarding how ‘loudspeaker drivers’ and ‘passive or active crossovers’ interrelate with one another.

Generic active electronic crossovers provide the customer with a 'generic' approach to speaker adjustments. By that I mean you can choose the slope and the crossover point and sometimes the Q but they do not take into account the ‘Sound Power’ or total radiated energy of the speaker. ‘Sound Power’ is the result of the loudspeakers radiation pattern into the listening room.

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘Room’ and the loudspeakers ‘Sound Power’. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any loudspeaker.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:
When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is referred to as the ‘Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room.

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even.

CROSSOVERS:
So when you design a ‘Passive’ or ‘Active’ crossover for a specific speaker you are attempting to achieve the best Sound Power possible. Generic crossovers have their place but recognize that without sophisticated anechoic chambers and very specialized measuring tools getting the ‘on and off' axis as smooth as possible with the various drivers and speaker cabinets out there is not an easy task.

The Bryston BAX-1 Active Electronic Crossover on the other hand is designed with a specific Bryston speaker in mind (Model T, Middle T and Mini T) We design and manufacture all our own drivers as well to facilitate optimizing the sound power. The Model T has different software than the Middle T and the Mini T has different software again. The reason for that is we put each of the Model T's in our anechoic camber and we make over 300 measurements but vertically and horizontally around the speaker and adjust the software to provide as accurate as possible the best ‘Sound Power’ for the specific Model T speaker.

Hope this helps explain it a bit.

Sorry this went on a bit longer than I planned.

james
James, as an owner of an SP3 who has followed you, this translates to me as you really don't believe in EQ, but if you are going to do it, the BAX-1 with no built in speakers crossover, is the best way to use corrections. :scratch2::D

Masterlu 09-12-2018 12:59 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Today 58lbs of WW Cables were delivered for this system. :)

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1536771572

Samac 09-12-2018 07:33 PM
That is wild! Really looking forward to seeing this system come together and reading your impressions of it, Ivan.

Cheers,

Scott

Masterlu 09-12-2018 07:40 PM
Thanks, I shall do. :yes:

j3brow 09-12-2018 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu (Post 931250)
Today 58lbs of WW Cables were delivered for this system. :)



https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1536771572


That is a thing of beauty!

audioguy3107 09-12-2018 09:03 PM
Ivan - Does David Salz Of Wireworld have a portrait of you in his office? :lmao:

Masterlu 09-12-2018 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy3107 (Post 931315)
Ivan - Does David Salz Of Wireworld have a portrait of you in his office? :lmao:
Buck... no, but he does have a statue of me there!

http://www.mwctoys.com/images1/review_syrhomer_1.jpg

:roflmao:

Masterlu 09-17-2018 05:52 PM
Another piece comes together
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a photo of some of the Acoustic treatments from ASC for this room. Silver for the ceiling, and Beige on the walls.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1537221093

James Tanner - Bryston 09-17-2018 07:23 PM
Hi Ivan

What are the dimensions of the room?

james

Masterlu 09-17-2018 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Tanner - Bryston (Post 931967)
Hi Ivan

What are the dimensions of the room?

james
12’w x 16.5’d x 9’h

moonhawk 09-18-2018 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterlu (Post 931968)
12’w x 16.5’d x 9’h
Is that big enough to generate deep bass?

I'm thinking of building an outbuilding for a 2 channel "man-cave" and wondering about dimensions.

James Tanner - Bryston 09-18-2018 06:56 AM
Hi,

One of the advantages of the Active system is you can EQ the bass response below 120Hz which really helps a lot in fine tuning the bass response even in smaller rooms.

james

moonhawk 09-18-2018 10:04 AM
cool. Thanks James

Masterlu 09-22-2018 09:01 PM
Update...

I have all my Bryston Electronics, Racks, Cables and Room Treatments. It will just be a few more weeks till the Active Model T Speakers arrive.

doguniverse 09-23-2018 10:39 AM
Boy, what a killjoy for making all of us to wait!

Masterlu 09-23-2018 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doguniverse (Post 932769)
Boy, what a killjoy for making all of us to wait!
:lmao:

Masterlu 09-28-2018 12:18 PM
3 Attachment(s)
More Bryston gear arrived today. :)

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1538151476

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1538151539

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1538151561

Masterlu 09-28-2018 07:13 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Acoustimac Picture Panel to be used with this system.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1538176379

jmw31 09-28-2018 07:19 PM
Love the picture!

Masterlu 09-28-2018 07:21 PM
1 Attachment(s)
In addition, quite a few ASC Panels for both the ceiling and walls.

https://www.audioaficionado.org/atta...1&d=1538176872


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