HDTV Shoot-Out
 

I thought I would share this in case anyone was interested.

I attended the annual flat-panel shoot-out at Value Electronics in Scarsdale, NY back on May 11, a Saturday. It was a 2-evening event, as there was a presentation Friday May 10 as well. Even though this is a small (though they recently moved to a somewhat larger store), mom/pop-type place, the event has become a big deal of sorts in the industry, as there are press and industry people who make the trek there from all over the country and the world, as do personnel from the various companies represented to make presentations on their flagship TVs. And, it was streamed live online. There were refreshments, as usual, and that included some KILLER homemade cookies by one of the daughters of the VE proprietors, Robert and Wendy Zohn.

This year's sets were the following: Panasonic TC-P65ZT60, Panasonic TC-P65VT60, Samsung PN64F8500 (plasmas), Sony XBR-X900A 4K Ultra High Definition, Panasonic TC-L55WT60 , and the Samsung UN60F8000 (LED LCDs). LG couldn't get their flagship set there in time for the event, unfortunately. And Sharp Elite is in a holding pattern, perhaps updating their line to come out with 4K sets.

As mentioned in my preamp thread, I will sometimes consider what to replace current gear with should the need arise. In that case the "what if" turned into an "I did" (though I'm still not 100% sold on the replacement; that process is still ongoing). But as for my TV, a Pioneer Kuro, there is unlikely to be an "I did" moment as long as it's working. In fact, there was a Kuro KRP-500 there, not part of the shoot-out but for curiosity comparison (external pressure led to that, I understand). The Kuro, 4 years old, was still better in black level. You can watch excerpts on VE's website; there's probably more on You Tube or other sites.

In case anyone is interested, here is the write-up by Rob Sabin of Home Theater magazine on the proceedings; he was there that Saturday.

Value Electronics HDTV Shootout: And Then There Were Three... | Home Theater

Prepress...thanks for posting. It seems like Kuro remains the true king. Interesting to read about the plasma developments.

We have the Sony HX950 equivalent. Very happy with that too for some time to come if current 1st gen 4K LED progress is anything to go by.

Sounds like Samsung are continuing to push the pop in their LCDs. Despite my prejudices regarding their longevity, I also find their picture a little artificial & fatiguing in a darkened room.

There was some solo time with the Sony for 4K material, provided by Sony on an external hard drive (they had no rep at the shoot-out). In a split screen with 4K and 1080p content, the 4K advantage was obvious, more with some material than others. With the technical, torture-test material the calibrators used the Sony showed some warts; the motion resolution test wasn't so great. And on the Lawrence of Arabia BD, the picture had a yellowish tint compared to the plasmas.

If my PRO-111FD died with no hope of repair, I'd go for the Panasonic VT60, though I would want the 55" version. I'm not sure the ZT60 upgrades are worth it to me. The Samsung might be too bright in my dim room, and there was suggestion that turning the brightness down has an adverse affect on PQ.

Great write up!

I confess I paid little attention to the Samsung and Panasonic LCDs. I was focused on the plasmas. But the Samsung LCD did look brighter than the Panasonic to me.

+1 for kuro, mine is great. rather than concentrate on brightness i believe one should id their need to view programs from an angle rather than directly in front of a tv which plasma is usually better at. secondly the ability for the picture to stay the same as you stand favors plasma

I love my PRO-101FD and PRO-141FD!

You can view much of the actual shoot-out here.

HDTVShootout - YouTube

I actually asked a question during the Q & A, about 17:50 in.

I have plans to attend this year's shootout as well. It's coming up this weekend. With plasma all but gone, what with Samsung getting out by November and LG the last one standing (though one wonders for how long) it will be interesting to see what the UHD/4K sets offer. Last year's popular winner, the Samsung F8500 plasma, will be there; it'll be the only plasma. This isn't a final list, but these are some of the sets to appear as I understand it.

UHD/4K Models
LG 79UB9800 or 84UB9800 LED-edgelit LCD
Samsung UN78HU9000 LED-edgelit LCD
Samsung UN85S9 16:9 or UN105S9W 21:9 LED-FALD LCD
Sony XBR-85X950B LED-FALD LCD

1080p Models:
LG 55EC9300 OLED
Samsung PN64F8500 plasma
Samsung KN55S9C OLED
Vizio M652i-B2 1080p LED-FALD LCD

Panasonic has an exclusive with Best Buy, so they won't be there. Maybe also because their LCDs did so poorly last year?

I am not a hard-core videophile, but it will be interesting to see potential successors to my Pioneer Elite Kuro in case it needs replacing one day.

Still really glad I picked up a Panasonic 60" VT60 at the end of last year. I'll be curious to see how these newer LCD/LED 4k sets compare to last year's models and the current plasmas...

That would have been my worst-case (meaning my Kuro was dead) scenario also. The Sharp Elite of a couple years ago would work also, if the cyan issue were resolved and they were available.

It is such a shame those Kuro tvs got discontinued and manufacturers have such a hard time surpassing it with something better.

In about 20–30 minutes I should be off to Scarsdale. I'll probably leave early to come back, before the Q&A (work is at 7AM), but we'll see what's happening. I wonder how the Sony 4K UHD set will do. The 900 series has side-mounted speakers, just like my Kuro PRO-111. I prefer a TV with good on-board sound. I hope the picture is equal to the sound system.

I have the 850B series Sony 4K HD TV and love the picture, even if it's not 4K resolution.

I run all my sound from the cable STB to my pre so I don't use TV speakers at all.

Let us know what you think!

Well, I attended the Shootout on Sunday. I had to leave before it was all over, so I don't know all the details or how some of the calibrators' tests went. But here is what I observed while there.

There were 3 1080p sets: the Samsung PN64F8500 plasma (last year's audience favorite); the Samsung KN55S9C OLED; and the LG 55EC9300 OLED. On the 4K side: Samsung's UN78HU9000, UN85HU8550, and UN10559W; and Sony's XBR79X900B and XBR85X950B. Sets from Toshiba and Vizio weren't ready in time for consideration, as it turned out.

From my perspective, if I had to replace my Kuro, it would be with the Samsung plasma or one of the OLEDs. The LG in particular had black levels so low they were unmeasurable, literally a "0" for that reason. Next was the Samsung OLED with .0007. The F8500 plasma, with a black level of .0041 was next. The best black for the 4K sets was Sony's 950B with .0044. Sequential contrast ratio, as you might expect, had the LG OLED, Samsung OLED, then the Samsung plasma as the top three.

The sets all looked mostly good with normal program material, but when the calibrators begain putting them through their paces, that's when stuff started to show up. Anyone with an Oppo blu-ray player is aware of the screen saver with the white Oppo logo moving around a black background; of all the sets, the F8500 had the best image; the others had a halo around the letters, even the OLED sets. With the grayscale tracking, most of the sets weren't pure gray; the KN55S9C, in fact, turned very red when viewed off-axis. The LG and F8500 did best, to my eyes.

But the killer was when a night scene from a Harry Potter movie was played. The 4K sets, which for all their fanciness are still LCDs after all, couldn't match the OLEDs or the plasma. The Sony 950B was pretty good, but it had a backlighting issue, as there were halos around the "A/B" in the top black bar as scenes were transitioned. And anything white on a black background had the zone around it partially lit up. Not good for a set costing as much as the 950.

One of the persistent concerns with OLED is longevity. The LG method (adding white to RGB) has the potential for shorter life span than the Samsung's more regular RGB model. I guess we'll see. Anyway, the audience voted the LG OLED best, while the calibrators voted the Samsung OLED best. The F8500 had the most accurate color and best motion resolution as voted by the audience.

Charles.......Thanks for the interesting HDTV shoot-out review. The results are interesting and food for thought.

The votes are in from Sunday's event, and the audience favorite was the LG OLED set. The calibrators, however, chose the Samsung OLED. If I had to buy something now, it would be the F8500 plasma.

Why? Well it was best with color accuracy and motion resolution, its black levels are more than respectable, and off-axis was very good. Even the OLEDs had off-axis issues. And the slightly higher than last year's black level (.0017) is due to a firmware fix for floating blacks. However, the 64" F8500 is too wide for my space. I think there's a 55" one. Mike Wood from Samsung was there and says the 8500 will be manufactured up until around year's end (probably November, which is when Samsung exits the plasma buisiness officially).

My take is that for all its improvements, LCD is still LCD. Maybe Samsung will be motivated to get back into OLED, as they had stopped work from what I heard. The OLED at the Shootout is from last year.

I have a Pioneer 500M and they are very hard to beat..even today!..

I love the TV picture BEST when it's in the Studio Mode, you have to open up the Integrator Menu to get to the Studio mode there

To open up the Integrator Menu you hold down on the Display Info button for five seconds and then you release that button and push the Home Menu button and that will open up the Integrator Menu there.

You should see football games in Studio Mode, it looks so real!..

Here's my settings in


Studio Mode:


Contrast 47
Brightness -2
Color +45
Tint +5
Sharpness +15

White Balance

R High -43
G High -20
B High -60
R Low +60
G Low -1
B Low +36

Color Management

R +14
Y -30
G +18
C -28
B -19
M +10

You can turn your fans on.. Max in the Integrator Menu too...if you have the fans on Auto, they hardly ever comes on!..

A few days ago, the voting was re-examined and it was decided there would be co-winners as far as audience vote. The F8500 plasma had the highest overall average score, though the LG OLED won the most categories. So it was declared a tie.

One thing the results show is that resolution alone isn't the most important thing in picture quality.

Are you in NY?

Yes, in Brooklyn. I went up to Scarsdale via public transit. My Kuro plasma and 09FD BD player were purchased from VE.

I'm a great fan of the Pioneer Kuro plasmas. My Kuro KRP600m is still producing a great picture. Late last year we had a flood at home when one of the winter storms hit. The Kuro was off the wall, resting on the floor since I'd just bought a Samsung OLED to replace it. Unfortunately the bottom 2" of the Kuro were underwater for 12 hours!

I already had a buyer coming for the Kuro so obviously had to cancel that sale and I just put the Kuro in our storage unit to dry out with the other debris.

Ok, we got through 2 OLEDs in 2 months. Both had pixel issues and supplier exchanged the first and after the second we just got a refund.

We pulled the Kuro out of storage and tried it. Picture perfect and continues to work just fine. I've decided with that quality and reliability, I'm just going to stick with it!

Nice story. I think that's what I'm doing also, keeping my Kuro as long as possible. At the shootout, I understand the calibrators couldn't get the LG OLED to yield an accurate gamma, which is why they voted for the Samsung OLED as their top pick. LG is about to come out with 4K OLED; it will be interesting to see the results of that.

The Samsung had a stunning picture. Didn't get round to trying to calibrate it but it looked rather better in terms of contrast resolution against the Kuro (both used with Lumagen XD) however poor reliability just put me right off the current OLED sets.

I have been using the small Sony OLED for years with absolutely no problems

LG has announced their new 4K OLEDs, coming this year. There are two, 65" and 77", the 65EC9700 and 77EG9700. I don't have the space or money for either (I may do something to my system soon, so no money available). Both have a gentle curve, not as pronounced as Samsung's. The 65" model will start shipping in Korea, Europe, and North America in September, with the 77" coming later. Maybe by the time I need a new TV, these will come down in price and I'd have the room for a 65" one.

Also by then, any tech issues will be resolved, I hope. Meantime I'd better take good care of my PRO-111.

I saw a few of the OLED sets at CES this year. Most of them had the liquid quality that comes with super high contrast displays. They looked spectacular. The LCD sets just can't touch them. When my Pioneer plasmas finally die, OLED sets will replace them. Now if only there was a reasonably priced high contrast projector option, I would go for it.

What would you guys shoot for in the 80" and + sizes? Again thanks for this post and info too :)

Looking at that Lost Horizon quote, are you a Yes fan? It sounds like something Jon Anderson would have written. They have a different lead vocalist now, of course.

I agree with you on LCD. I hope to be able to get an OLED when my Kuro bellies up.

Dave,
If you can wait, the large OLED's will come down in price and increase in reliability over the next few years. If not, you'll be best off looking at the sets at a store that actually has them set up properly and calibrated.

Charles,
Yes is a great band, for sure. I re-read "The Lost Horizon" a couple of years ago, and loved all the references to light, sound, and beauty. So I'm quoting a few of them from time to time.
Tom

Thank you, yep I am thinking my DLP 73 Mitsubishi is still not only working great, but to be honest I went and got a top end LG in led/lcd and it was not near as nice as the DLP set. The LG went back

Sure the DLP's take up a little less space etc, but that is not an issue. So sad to see Mitsubishi drop out of the TV world, they had partnered with NEC whom has always made one of the best PC LCD's you can buy. They did briefly even make a non dlp set that i think was LCD and it was very nice too.


Does seem to me that the OLED is the best of the best and hope to seem them drop the price 40-50% in a year or 2. the 4k think and 3d hmmm well I just would like a nice 85" or so set, heck even up to a 100" if I can swing the cost. :)

thank you

Oled
 

Dave,
Yep, those DLP sets like yours have great color fidelity and decent blacks, especially the later ones. If it's working I'd leave it alone until OLED come out of four figure territory.

It must be nice to have the room for something that large. With my room and limitations I'd need a 55", which would be plenty big in here.

Just got back from the 2017 shootout and LG's latest, the E7, swept the three categories, besting a Sony AIE (OLED) and X9D (LED LCD), Samsung Q9F, Vizio P and a Westinghouse TV (don't remember the model). There was a $30K Sony OLED (BVX-300) mastering display so there was a true reference. And the judging this time was done by industry pros, not a general audience. The event was part of CE Week in Manhattan.

As a consumer and potential buyer, I thought the LG had better color, but the Sonys had better video processing. Those three were the best TVs and any one would be good. The highest contrast ratio belonged to the LG (70,944:1!); the Sony OLED was a "mere" 44,926:1 and its LCD was 13,181:1. Those numbers would be unheard of not all that long ago.

So if my Pioneer Elite Kuro falls off the equipment rack I'd say I have good choices for its replacement.

Very good data. It's impressive to hear about LG. I still had the idea that Samsung and
Sony were leading the pack these days. I have been lurking for a new one, but my old
Samsung Plasma is still going strong (very hot in the summer though!).

Despite the LG's better color, I think I'd get the Sony A1E, due to its better video processing. The Sony's picture was a bit bluish, but eminently watchable nonetheless. Even the Sony LCD seemed to have better VP than the LG. But Sony's known for good video processing. I would want the 55" version, which is plenty for my room. The sound systems on both look to be of decent quality also, another plus.

The event was moderated by Joel Silver, president and founder of ISF (Imaging Science Foundation), with able assistance from Kevin Miller, head of ISFTV, a product development consulting company to the industry's top television and video source manufacturers. Kevin also is an excellent calibrator; he calibrated my Kuro 111FD. It was nice to renew acquaintances with him.

While the picture on the LG is very good (but not completely to my liking because I like a screaming bright picture and LG doesn't have that) I hope anyone who gets an LG never needs service because judging from their service on appliances, you might as well throw it out because you're not getting the problem resolved--EVER.

This is why a really great dealer would be important. I have one in Value electronics, up in Scarsdale. I bought my Kuro 111FD plasma from them, as well as two blu-ray players and a couple of smaller TVs. Robert Zohn, the owner (and the one who started the shootout years ago), and family are great to deal with and I got a good deal on everything, not to mention free delivery on the Kuro. I'm confident that they'd make things right if I got the LG OLED and there were problems. But as long as the Kuro keeps chugging along I'm in no hurry. Besides, VE sells both OLEDs, so I could avoid LG and get the Sony if there were misgivings about LG's customer service.

I will say when I first got my OLED I was going to take it back . I decided to get the set calibrated. It made all the difference. I was having issues with judder ghosting everything else. Calibration fixed everything ! LG should not have made a TV that was so difficult to get right

I think calibration is the definite way to go. I had my Kuro looking pretty decent with the onboard settings, but the professional calibration I got took it to another level. Greater detail was the main benefit to my eyes, and a cleaner picture overall. I have all the HDMI inputs calibrated in ISF Night mode, 30ft-l; I don't need a day mode for my room.

Ivan the 75" Z model chip set Sony is the dream set to own, saw one at a Best Byt Magnolia store WOW just WOW! :)