The Whole Thing Is A Fraud: High-End Cables
 

The success of the audiophile wire industry is based entirely on the utter ignorance of the market. Notice that whenever these manufacturers advertise their products, they almost invariably discuss qualitative issues, they rarely if ever give hard numbers to their theories let alone put them in a technical context that will indicate to what degree what they say is significant. And so the whole thing is based on hope and fear among potential customers. That is why I think the whole thing is a fraud. Before this cottage industry got started, nobody thought audio equipment customers would be stupid enough to believe any of this. They were proven wrong.


http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5565

Just a BS article. :yes:

The author of that piece gives no evidence that "audiophile" wires and cables are a fraud - only his opinion that is is so. And while claiming that the whole thing is based on hope and fear among potential customers, he is in fact basing his whole thing on fear and ridicule couched in scientific jargon.

Electrical engineers don't have any particular advantage in appreciating high fidelity than anyone else - not that at any point this particular EE goes as far as to say he's actually done any kind of listening tests to determine whether or not he can perceive a difference in cables.

Ultimately, there are two types of audiophiles - those who can hear subtle nuances and those who can't. Those who can don't need anyone else's opinion as to whether something sounds better than something else. Unfortunately, those who can't are at the mercy of whoever's opinion they happen to be in earshot of.

Well said, Howard, well said indeed!

You need a very resolving system to hear cable differences and improvements. IMO cables come into play only after you have reached a high plateau of system quality.

This much debated topic will probably go on much longer than need be. Having some scholarly knowledge in this area I will point to the "Distortion-less Transmission Line" theory proven over 150 years ago. And having input from several metallurgical workers/professors helps some also. This is an area of seriously diminishing returns. It has become an area where the product is price. Please consider the actual cable components. Are the "ingredients" that much different in different brands? If one cable seems to be doing markedly different than another please go back to the aforementioned theory. I know what works for me and I want to hear the sound of the components and not how the connections are altering them. Let the debate continue. But whatever you do.... do not let proven scientific facts sway you. Spend your money.

There is a world of difference between saying "seriously diminishing returns" and "the whole thing is a fraud". Either there are audible differences or there aren't. If there are, the market will determine their value. If there are not, than the market will collapse. It's not rocket science.

About Mark Waldrep, Ph.D.


http://www.aixrecords.com/contact/about_mw.html

I whole heartedly agree with this. If the cable nay-sayers spent time with highly resolving high end systems on a daily basis, I truly believe most of them would be believers. That being said, I also believe that the difference between audiophile cables can and is greatly exaggerated by the high end community.

- Buck

If you have a crappy stereo then cables won't make a difference. You also won't be able to tell the difference between a Steinway and a Baldwin piano. If you on the other hand have experienced high fidelity systems and/or played an instrument then the differences will be obvious.

What's amusing to me is most people who make the claim that cables don't make a difference also think Bose is the pinnacle of audio.

The Whole Thing Is A Fraud: High-End Cables
 

I had the opinion, long before Audioquest came up with their slogan, "Do no harm", and still have that opinion today. The fact is, there ARE differences between SOME cables. Some cables sound the same, some sound better, some sound horrible. If you don't hear a difference, you're lucky (blissfully so, kind of like the McDonalds hamburger lover that never tried a better burger let alone a nice steak with a descent Cabernet). But at the end of the day, pick a cable you like. Don't rely on others to tell you what you should use or like. You can however, listen to opinions and in the end, form your own opinion. If you like $0.99 per foot zip cord, use it. After all, it's your system dammit! You really do owe it to yourself to try other cables though. :thumbsup:

I believe this particular piece was written by Mark L. Fischer. Mark Waldrep was reprinting it.

The Whole Thing Is A Fraud: High-End Cables
 

Great response Jim! I agree.

At the end of the day I have heard improvement in my cable upgrades. If it's my imagination so be it.

I'm amused when I think back to the 60's and 70's using zip cord for speaker cable and $1.99 rca interconnects from RS. I would think Shunyata and Nordost (to name a few) have extensive research and data to validate their products, especially considering their work in medical, aerospace and military fields. Sadly many people in this hobby don't have the knowledge to comprehend this "hardcore data".

Finally, I spoke to a manufacturer of expensive cables not too long ago and he told me, “I’m going to get into making guitar cables soon…I think there’s money to be made in that market.” So I asked him what his cost would be and what he expects to sell them for. He said, “I’ll have about $15 in the cable and connectors and hope to sell them for around $250.? Honestly, I don’t think the situation is any different for the cables that audiophiles purchase…there’s way too much costs for far too little improvement. Different? Maybe. But better…it’s up to you. What you’re paying for is expensive ads in glossy magazines.


http://www.highendaudionews.com.vhos...lag.com/?p=440

Most people I know do not do a/b blind testing and honestly if they did the memory of what you hear in that detail with the time delay of switching a cable is just not reliable.

With two good cables to compare, I would argue that if you did a/b testing enough times with cable switching then you would probably get 50% the most expensive... basically chance.

In order to do even blind ab testing with audio, you would have to be able to switch on demand and instant and there aren't many tools that allow this for big system components.

That being said, I have pricey cables...I personally think they alter the sound but in a way that I like. (Transparent ultra)

I don't think the industry is a fraud or people wouldn't buy it. I think the industry plays to the strength and the limitations like everyone else :)

I feel that if you find some cables and they make you happy then buy them :)

I think both can be true : cables can make a difference AND they are a way overpriced. For example, most cable companies have product lines which double in price as you go up. There is no possible way that they really cost twice as much to make. It's all gouging. And unfortunately we pay it. I'm guilty.

But when you have a highly resolving system there is no doubt that there is a difference. Especially when you are talking about the whole "loom".

I couldn't agree more! :naughty:

https://fontmeme.com/images/fruit-of-the-loom-logo.png

He is well renowned for his multichannel and general recording knowledge and experience which is immense.

That however does not make him an expert in all things nor above committing the same sins in his article that he is saying the wire industry commits.

The article is meant to do one thing, keep his name in the public view which it accomplishes admirably.

+1 !

The Whole Thing Is A Fraud: High-End Cables
 

Like anything in this hobby there is the rule of diminishing returns. Do cables make a difference? Without question. Are the MIT cables Ivan was playing with that are 30k better than Wireworld Silver eclipse? I’m sure they are, but most likely not worth 10x the cost.

I switched from “better cables” brand speaker wires, to wireworld silver eclipse and there was a very noticeable difference. When my kids and wife, who seldom know I’m making a change comment on the sound, I know it’s not all in my head.

I actually wound up returning the MIT's as we all agreed the WW Platinum's sounded better to our ears.

With the really high-end gear we all buy diminishing returns kick in. But to call wires a fraud is a pretty bold statement by the Op.

When I upgraded to WW silvers my wife noticed a big difference. And I got a similar reaction to the stillpoints. ... but maybe to Op thinks those are a fraud too [emoji849]

Watch out for the sign post up ahead, you are entering the "Cable Zone"

https://goodpsychology.files.wordpre...sis-spiral.gif

:lmao:

Well I've gone from the very expensive Nordost Valhalla analogue and digital interconnects to the moderately priced Kimber Kable interconnects and no one could hear. a lick of difference.

Switched back and forth 3 times. Just saying.

Actually if this is the thesis one can simply ignore the rest.

Regardless of your opinion of cables, if there is one thing the audiophile wire industry is tapped into, it is the market. In fact the "entire cables are a scam" crowd constantly well overestimates their understanding of the market.

Round and round we go................. AGAIN. Not sure why people continue to debate this. The right answer is what ever the individual spending the money, or not spending the money, thinks it is.

Amen

Cable haters love to :stirthepot: and also love :beatinghorse:. We should all just enjoy the :music:.

LMFAO...beautiful!!!

I really really wish I couldn't hear differences in cables. But I can.

no they don't, certainly not the majority

ya think ...............

ahhhh, pity the poor audiofool !

really makes little difference that the argument will ever be settled, while I know cabling can make a difference and can be 'made' to make a difference (MIT) I'm in the camp that supports science, engineering and common sense.

Cost of raw materials and assembling them are only part of keeping a business enterprise going so there are cables to buy. Yes, marketing expenses are part of those costs. So is payroll for people who aren't always working on building cables, like inventory managers, accountants, attorneys, back-office staff, etc.

I was recently reminded of how cable quality can affect even non audio applications. I recently bought a car for my au pairs to drive with Android Auto and Apple Carplay. Good quality USB sync cables are needed for Android Auto to work, especially for Google Maps where timing of bits is obviously important. With crappy cables my Galaxy S7 gets disconnected every minute or so from the car. At first I thought the problem was due to a software problem. It turns out the cable was the issue. So bits aren't just bits.

We had the same problem in our car.
A no name brand cable really didn't function properly.

Same here... :sigh:


About the material cost.
I had a patient who worked in the sunglasses business.
Production cost is only a couple of €, still they're sold at 300-400€ or more.

After I ordered my 601s I measured the distance between the two towers where each amp would sit. Eight feet but over 6ft off the ground. So to be on the safe side I would need a 24ft interconnect. Since I already had Nordost Valhalla in my current system I asked my dealer how much a new interconnect would cost. It would have to be a special order from Nordost because the longest one they make is 4 meters and it costs 18 thousand. The 601s are 15 thousand after tax. Anyway he suggested Kimber Kable. Sent me home with some and that's when I did the comparison with the system the 601s were going to replace. Back and forth between the Valhallas and Kimber. No one could tell the difference. Playing the same songs from my MCD500.

When wire costs more than the amps. :banana: :D. :yes:

How much were the Kimber?

960 for 24ft balanced.

Tell me about it. A cool $43K in 3 cables; Odin PC Version 1's. I know, I'm an idiot. Next.

Best Sir,

Bob