802D2 vs 803D3 - back to back audition
 

I finally was able to audition both the 802D2 and the 803D3 in the same room, same equipment, and nearly the same placement.

Full MAC gear, MCD500 to C50 Preamp to MC601 amps.

We switched between the 2 pairs approx 10 times during the demo... sometimes right in the middle of a song. Volumes were kept similar.

The 802D2 was just sold as demo so I was lucky to stop by right when they had the system still up. I lugged the 803D3 across the room and connected them in A/B fashion. I didn't want any of the speaker pairs to have the upper hand with regards to staging so I staggered the 2 pairs.

Basically:
1. Voices sounded meatier with the 803D3.
2. There was better projection into the room, vocal projection and vocal energy seemed to have more force and appeared more 3D than the relatively flatter presentation on the 802D2.
3. Midrange is definitely better on the 803D3, no question.
4. Bass seemed tighter, but I don't think it really went any lower... which makes me question the 19hz rating of the 803D3.
5. The sound seemed more cohesive to me, the treble didn't call to itself in what little that it did with the already improved 802D2. The midrange finally has less of this grain.
6. It's easy to hear the "grain" in the kevlar midrange... it's definitely a coloration that I have thought I heard before but chalked it up to "just how it is".
7. MUCH better at disappearing.... I can tell when the 802D2 is playing, I'm very familiar with this speaker.... but then when they had the 803D3 playing... I literally got up from my seat to check to see if the speakers were playing... it was SO weird that the speakers just disappear even no matter how you focus your energy into trying to stare at a speaker and see if sounds come from there.
8. Balanced sound. Sounded real.

Nitpick:
I honestly did not think bass hit the specs of <19Hz.

I also did not think it was the best imager, but I am sure it's a function of the set up and the not so ideal room and set up.


Conclusion:

Yes I liked it a lot. A lot a lot.

Like I will be buying one a lot.

And my 66 year old dad was there with me and listened. Without even asking for his opinion.

"The new is 25% better than the old one. There's a big difference. You can easily tell.... even if you're not an audiophile."

Very cool review!

The specs for low end does seem a bit overrated, it reminds me of the PVD-1 subwoofer which is rated 7.5 - 450 hz from 2 x 8" ......:scratch2:

Other than that, isent it very hard to listen if it goes that deep?
I mean, 19 hz is hardly audible and most "normal" music does not go that low?

The bass is quick and tight.... I can't for sure say if it is deep.

I'm going to see if it's still there on Sunday and check again.

These are very RARE opportunities to have both speakers in 1 room under similar conditions. I wish I spent more time, but I think it was enough given how familiar I am with the 802D2.

Maybe the only thing I could ask for to be better would be imaging.. but I think that's a function of placement and room loading moreso than the actual speaker.

I sat there thinking... would I be happier with the 800D3 or the Wilson Alexia....?

And is my equipment up to snuff?

But, yes... the 803D3 is very very good. I am very sure I am headed D3..... the only question I have is:

Which?

Hi joey_v,

Nice review!

A note about low bass performance (which you probably already know): outside of the actual capabilities of the product, getting low bass extension in a given acoustic space is completely dependent on that acoustic space. I know the room that you listened in, and unless you've got the speakers setup just right, you won't hear (or feel) anything near 19Hz.

Best regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

On a similar note, I happened to be in the Best Buy Magnolia store yesterday in Fresco, Texas and listened to the 804 D2 and 804 D3 side by side. :umm:

Thanks for the review! Very good description.

This is very promising for the new line up:thumbsup::thumbsup:

By the way, I ran a 20 hz test tone through my 800D2`s and it shakes the room with good force, I did not expect that.

Dag

Joey - cool review, thanks for your thoughts.....I'm looking forward to hearing the D3s as soon as I get the chance. The 19 Hz spec. is really impressive, but like Patrick said, very room dependent. I'd be willing to bet that 19 Hz would be pretty tough to achieve without ideal room acoustics and treatment.

- Buck

I was there. I took the 803D3 and moved it across the room to the 802D2 side.

Very nice folks who let you play with the gear.

No one had heard a good demo of the 802D2 and the 803D3, so we had a crowd going.

Curious to hear your feedback. Anything else you can add?

Thanks

Where was this?

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

Recommend you try and hear the new D3 yourself. Your impression could be totally different from mine. I thought the D3 sounded very ordinary, imaging and soundstage offered nothing unusual. I found the D2 to sound warmer than the D3 which was noticeable brighter and possibly more lively. Some might describe the D3 as being more accurate but I wouldn't. (At normal listening levels I doubt if anyone could tell the difference between the 803 D3 and the 804 D3 which was consistent with the finding at the recent Sterling Sound audition and comparison.)

I'm going to listen to the 804d3 vs the 803d3 and see if I come to the same conclusion.

802D2 sounded grainy and brighter in comparison, everyone in the room agreed.

803D3 did not.

And, I may add... where you heard it:

You forgot to omit that you were listening on an all Rotel system, against the corner of room, with subpar spacing between speakers. I will post a pic of the 804D3 in their listening position... there's probably 5 feet between speakers and minimal work on toe in and room loading.

You can put a pair of Wilson XLF in that corner and it wont have any staging.

803d2 vs 804d3

Notice it is not optimal spacing. You can't expect to audition the 804D3 like this.

And btw, I know Frisco Magnolia... they do not have 804D3 and 804D2 side by side.

If you moved it to the other room, then you're running it through receivers.

Unless you moved it onto the MAC 452 or 601 set up, you're not doing yourself any service with that comparison. No one's going to run Rotel or receivers on the D3.

This is correct, both the 803 D3 and 804 D3 side-by-side comparison was on Rotel gear which is of course is owned by B&W and I assume designed for use with their speakers, i.e., apples to apples.

This is correct, we moved the 800 D3 to the other room with the 800 D2. However, we used a McIntosh MA5200 to perform the comparison, i.e., apples to apples. (As ron-c has explained, the MA5200 is a "giant killer".)

You mean you brought the 804D3 to the other room with the 804D2?

You guys put it on the long wall with the cheap connectors going into the wall where the Right channel 804D2 barely works and has static and they have to finagle with it just to get the right channel speaker to play?

This room is poorly done, you have all the speakers on the long wall and the seated position is probably no more than 7 feet from them... I can't even get good stereo from any speaker in this room. This room is only good to get a quick A/B idea of sonic characteristics of the 2... standing from off center.

You're not going to get any staging with that set up (5 feet apart, straight out at you, corner of a room). All you're going to get is centerfill. Not a fair assessment on the D3 ability.

What you should be really stating is that the Rotel system was not impressive... since really that's all you heard on the D3. And also that putting the speakers 5 feet apart in a corner of a room is not helpful to staging.

Have you seen a Wilson speaker set up?

You think they'd put it in the corner of a room right about 1.5 feet from the wall facing straight out and 5 feet apart?

Why do you think they spend hours at your house doing the WASP and positioning the speakers?

Ask Bill (metaphacts) of former Sumiko fame... ask him what putting a pair of speakers in the corner of a room will do. And 5 feet apart.

I don't mind if you share your opinion, Bill.

But let everyone else on AA know what the status was of the room and the audition was. People are looking at these preliminary reviews as a guide and you gotta be fair and transparent.

Thanks, next time I will clear my thoughts with you first.

Be fair. That's all I'm saying.

do you miss the strads?

Joey if ur wife lets u buy another set of speakers, she will win wife of the decade!

I am surprised to hear this as you are the first person I have seen that is stating the D2 is better than the D3.

Definitely will do some listening. Trying to figure out if I should stretch for the 803D3

FYI, we didn't play 804D3 or 803D3 at Sterling Sound.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

joey_v....What's this, you sold the Strads? Already?? Do you still have the 802's or were they sold as well?

I did not say the D2 was better than the D3, I just said it sounded warmer to me and was not as bright and lively as the D3. I also recommended that you go listen to the D3 yourself as you may have a totally different impression than me.

Pooya....

She would regardless.

Edit:

Win regardless.

Not let me buy regardless lol.

Joey...excellent review! Thanks!
By the way, anyone who passes judgement on any Bowers gear, on that Rotel system in that corner should disclose it. Ultimately however since the B&W folks are the ones who insist those 803's and now I assume 804d3's are demo'd with that Rotel 1582 MKII, it's their fault. Never understood that and that's coming from a guy who ran that amp with CM10's before my Mac and Focals.

Agreed 100%

BW should take responsibility for such a poor demo spot as well. :thumbsup:

You'd never see a Wilson demo like that.

Hi joey_v,

There are concessions to reality in merchandising, and limited space.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Things are getting a bit to particular about calling out this piece of electronics vs that piece of electronics when auditioning. The fact is whether we want to believe it or not take the piece you think is inferior along with your superior piece and say one other, drop yourself into a proper blind test of the amps in this case and I suspect no one would be able to tell the difference with a high enough percentage to say without a doubt one is better than the the other let alone be able to pick out the actual amp. In my opinion it's about as absurd as the guy who used to hang out on the forms (can't remember his user name off and) that said he could detect a McIntosh product in a blind test. I mean give me a break :)

It's perfectly understandable that we buy what we want based on numerous factors but when put to the test what we think makes our product superior to another sound wise can quickly fall away. This has nothing to do with build quality, warranty, etc. strictly audible testing.

+1

Well said!

Agreed as well.

We all do what we can with what we have.

Either way, I'm just glad many can hear BW given the distribution channels.

Truly stellar products at nearly every price point.

Terrific thread Joey and couldn't have come at a better time

I'm a believer we never buy speakers ... we only rent them - Lately I've been thinking it might be time to swap my Revel Salon Ultima set up with something else - The challenge is at my price point I couldn't find anything that sounded as pleasing on my ear - When I got word about the new B&W D3 series I figured the old D2 series would be an opportunity for a close out purchase so I did a few auditions

The 802D had amazing separation and detail but when you mentioned "grainy" on the mids I knew immediately what you meant - The 800D2 series is still pretty awesome though not quite sure it is enough to move me away from my Revels but enough to have me considering the possibility - Overall I do like the B&W sound

Now you have me thinking the an 803D3 might solve the sound issue .... the dollar issue is a whole other situation

In the scheme of things these are the best kind of situations to have :banana:

This is a great thread, thanks to everyone for contributing. Very timely for me: I'm about to move into a new house with (finally) an appropriate space to upgrade my AV setup.

As background, I'm a very long time B&W fan (owned exclusively B&W speakers for 30+ years), but I have not had a critical listen to new gear since my last upgrade cycle in 2008. Back then, space and family constraints limited me to the 805S with a sub (which are awesome), but I now have a much larger space (20x25' with equipment on short wall, vaulted ceiling great room) so time to step it up.

Based on my research, my starting options were a used pair of 802D2's, or a new pair of 804D3's (trying to keep to a ~$10k budget). Our local Magnolia had 803D3s, 804D3s, 805D3s, and 802D2s on the floor fed by a full Mac stack (MC601s, etc), so I took a hookie afternoon and spent 4+ glorious hours immersed in the new kit.

We started with the 802D2s. I had never heard these speakers before, but my expectations were sky high (my bias was towards the 802D2 going in). I was shocked at the poor performance of this set up, to the point where my conclusion was that something was wrong with the speakers. It was the muddiest and flatest presentation I had ever heard in B&W gear. Best description might be "loose and sloppy", which is the exact opposite of the B&W sound that I love. Given the reputation of the 802D2s, something was clearly wrong, so we moved to the 803D3s.

The 803D3s were an absolute revelation. The extent and precision of the soundstage was extraordinary. Even in a modestly large space (15x25'), it was absolutely effortless. During the audition, there were several glorious moments, but one that stands out was during "So What" (Mile Davis - Kind of Blue) when Miles joins in. The soundstage was so broad and precise that you could tell exactly where Miles was standing, and hear the horn sway and move during the piece. It honestly felt like Miles was in the room with us, and it was one of the most musically real experiences I've ever had in front a piece of kit. (As an aside, in my notes I wrote "Miles is about 5'8" tall"...a Google search when I got home showed me he was 5'7" ;)

Mids and highs were tight, effortless, and glorious. Lows were tight, but bass extension was not what I was hearing/feeling with the 802D2s. I agree with other folks that there is no way these guys are getting down to 17Hz. Has anyone found independent measurement of frequency response of these puppies?

After about an hour and half with the 803D3s, I had fallen in love, and rediscovered music that I thought I had long ago become overly familiar with. The extent and character of the sweet spot was stunning. "Glorious", "lovely", "effortless" are scattered everywhere in my notes. Aesthetically, side by side the 803D3s blow away the 802D2s (which are damn attractive). My only nit is the deep lows perhaps being a bit thin, but we did not spend any time tuning room placement to optimize.

Next was the 804D3s (basically same placement, same kit and content). After the glory of the 803D3s, I was braced for disappointment. I was (happily) very wrong. The 804D3s are an extraordinary speaker, with very few compromises vs the 803D3s. It was definitely of the same family/voice as the 803D3s, and had much of the same wonderful character, but just slightly less across the board.

Mids and highs were an absolute delight and the low end was surprisingly full, although thinner than the 803D3s. Overall, I would say they were an absolute joy, but had to try harder to get there. As we switched back and forth between the 803D3s and 804D3s, I would characterize the sound as less effortless, and the soundstage as less precise and less expansive.

The 804D3s had more difficulty filling the room. Where as for much of my demo content the 803D3s had "beyond the walls" sound imaging (the sound stage extended beyond the side walls and the ceiling), the 804D3s had a sound stage that filled ~2/3rds of the room. Whereas Miles was just standing there in the 803D3s, he was generally on the left-center side of the stage of 804D3s.

The 804D3s had flashes of jaw dropping glory and reveal, the 803D3s had sustained stretches of face dropping glory and reveal. The 804D3s just seemed to be working much harder to accomplish the same thing (like watching a tier 1 college basketball player vs a tier 1 NBA player). If I hadn't experienced the 803D3s, I would have been over the moon about the 804D3s. Coming from 805S's, it was everything I love about the B&W sound taken up to the Nth degree. If you're of limited budget, don't give in to the temptation and listen to the 803D3s, unless you're OK opening up the even bigger wallet ;)

Unfortunately, my local Magnolia did not have a 802D3 on the floor. After the revelation that was the 803D3, the 802D3's are on my must listen list. If it is able to fill out that last little bit of the low end, it may be time to get out the fork lift to carry in the still bigger wallet ;)

I am also keen to give the 802D2s a proper listen in a different setting. They weren't even a 1/10th of the speaker I was expecting. There was something clearly wrong with the floor models. My next step is to compare the 802D2s to the 803D3s and the 802D3s. My Magnolia rep was also steering me towards the REL S5 subs. I'd really like to get away from subs for 2 channel audio (they definitely have a place for HT), but I'll give them a go if there is an opportunity.

With 802D3s potentially on the table, it is fiscally prudent for me to consider speakers outside the B&W world. Any thoughts/suggestions for $20k+ speakers that could tempt me away from 802D3s?

Ray

I recently demo'd the B&W 802D3 along side the Magico S3. As a current owner of 803 D2's and also as someone who dreamed of one day getting the big brother 802's I had very high hopes and expectations of the new 802 D3 speakers going into the demo.

There were a few things that ultimately resulted in my purchase of the Magico S3's over the 802 D3's. As much as I hate to say it, the main factor in my decision was related to the build quality of the new 802 D3's which was a big surprise to me. But if I ignore the build quality component for a moment I felt the sound of the 802 D3 was not all that much different then the 803 D2 I own now. Sure, it filled the room more, had more bass but sounded very much the same everywhere else. I wouldn't call this a negative but at the end of the day, and after living with the 803 D2 for the past 4 years I guess I was looking for something that sounded less the same and more "accurate" for lack of a better word.

I also previously demo'd the 803 D3 and thought that speaker actually sounded better then the 802 D3. I walked away from the 803 D3 demo feeling far more impressed then I did when I walked away from the 802 D3 demo. Strange you say....I agree. There is something clearly special about the new 803 D3. If I wasn't in the market for a clear, several step upgrade from what I have now I would probably have gone home with the 803 D3 and been a very happy camper. But, in my case and with this purchase I was looking for my last speaker to take me to the grave.

Going back to the build quality issues I mentioned about the 802 D3. The first sign of disappointment was related to the sealing of the Midrange driver to the new Alum head casing it resides in. Upon close inspection, I could see areas around the driver itself that were missing sealant so there were " air gaps" that if I had a flash light on me I could have seen into the enclosure space behind the Midrange driver. I am referring to the area just outside of the polished ring where it meets the aluminium head.

Secondly, The Aluminium head itself which houses the Mid Range and Tweeter section didn't appear to be permanently attached to the lower half of the enclosure. By this I mean, if you grabbed a hold of the Aluminium head and gave it a little shake you could actually lift it off of the lower part of the enclosure. This was also visible while the speakers where being moved around into position where you could see the head rocking around freely. Now as I stated before, I do not own the 802 D2 speakers so I can't say if this is expected behaviour or not but needless to say I guess I always assumed that the head was permanently attached to the lower enclosure and not moving around like what I saw. If this is indeed expected behaviour then IMO its not something this potential customer could live with knowing.

So all in all I was disappointed with the 802 D3 and at this price point I feel there is ZERO room for errors in build quality and of course the sound itself also needs to knock me off my feet. Granted, $hit happens with any brand when it comes to manufacturing but that said "$hit" just can't happen when one is looking to spend almost $23K for a pair of speakers. One of the many problems when a company raises their product prices into a zone where the bigger fish swim is that they need to be even more fanatical about every aspect of their design if they want to compete at that level. In this case I feel B&W fell short of the mark.

Because of the above observations and in addition to feeling the competing product sounded better my money went to Magico instead of B&W.

Revel, Magico, Wilson, Sonus Faber all have models that immediately come to mind in that range, say $20K to appx. $36Kish.

rghanbari... Welcome to AA! :wave:

Today I was able to spend several blissful hours auditioning the 802D3 vs the 803D3. Different room and kit (Classe amp this time) but a truly magical experience.

We started with the 802D3. I have never heard such a balanced speaker in my life. Normally my notes are packed full as I go through my audition selections, but today it was very sparse, with a scattering of "very clean", "rich", "present", "balanced". There wasn't much to say: it was just right. End to end, I don't think I've ever heard such a balanced and effortless speaker.

Although I've been listening to some of my audtion material for decades, every one was fresh. For the first time, it felt like I was over the shoulder of the sound engineer at the mixing board, really hearing what they were hearing when they were mixing the album. I had an intellectual understanding of reference, but this was the first time I really experienced it first hand.

I spent a full 25 minutes with the 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th. I've had this CD for 30+ years, and know it as well as any piece of music I've ever listened to. This was the first time I had ever listened to it where there was no passage that I could find fault or want in the speakers. I had heard all the passages done well before, but this was the first time I had heard the piece done well as a whole. Afterwards, I thanked the person helping me with the audition for a once in a lifetime experience, but then I realized it didn't have to be (quite humbling).

As amazing as the 803D3s were with Mile Davis' "So What", these just took it farther and richer and in a more effortless way. The imaging was even more precise and the soundstage even more rich and expansive. As we pushed the volume, it stayed in control and effortless. Very very addictive.

I had been planning on stepping through the 804D3s and perhaps the 805s as well, but I was lost in the 802D3s and didn't want to listen to anything else. After 3 hours of bliss, finally bit the bullet and went back to the 803D3s so I could get a sense apples to apples.

In this space with this kit, the 803's were strikingly similar to the 802s. The differences were subtle and fleeting. They were the same, but just had to work a little harder to get there. Some key overtones and undertones were muted, and the sensitivity of the speaker seems a bit less (I didn't have a SPL meter...qualitative sense). Just had to push the amp a bit hard to get the same detail and volume, and even then, just a hair more strained to get there.

Through particularly dense and demanding sequences, you could hear the soundstage briefly compress and get muddled (esp. at higher volumes) as the speaker approached it limits, but these moments were very fleeting. Same moments on the 802D3 were striking for how it could deliver it without breaking a sweat.

From high's to low's, no matter the density and layers, the 802D3s took it all in stride, with a balance that truly and honestly felt like you were sitting in the sound mixers chair. Disc after disc, it just sounded right, without fault or strain. A stunning tour de force of music reproduction. I did not think this possible across this many music genres and this many dynamics.

In a small or midsize room, I would be delighted with the 803D3s. For all intents and purposes, they are very nearly the same speaker as the 802D3s. These are world class speakers at a price point that is awesome.

I'm going to be moving into a home with a larger listening space (20x25' with high vaulted ceiling), so I've decided to go with the 802D3 to make certain I can fill the space. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the 803D3s could (in practice) gobble up the space 99% of the time. With either model, I don't think you can go wrong.

I'm looking forward to the 802D3s, and am grateful for saving ~$25k by not having a chance to audition the 801D3s ;) Kidding aside, I'm not sure how the 801D3 could raise the bar that much farther than the heights the 802D3 and 803D3 are flying. Find a great room with great equipment, and give these guys a listen. A wonderful time to be a music lover.

Ray