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-   -   Turntable/Cartridge ideas for Shindo system (https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=13562)

fjn04 04-15-2012 04:45 PM

Turntable/Cartridge ideas for Shindo system
 
I have been trying to gather ideas for a second TT setup. I own a Well-Tempered Amadeus with an Emt Tsd-15N cartridge. This a great combination, that for the money may be hard to beat. I don't want to exceed the general price range of my current setup, but am open minded to spending a little less. I have actually thought of a second Amadeus, but want to have a more open mind. The Thorens Td-124 or Girrard 301 route is an interesting idea, but I admit that it may not be the best idea for me.

Alberto 04-15-2012 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 298417)
I have been trying to gather ideas for a second TT setup. I own a Well-Tempered Amadeus with an Emt Tsd-15N cartridge. This a great combination, that for the money may be hard to beat. I don't want to exceed the general price range of my current setup, but am open minded to spending a little less. I have actually thought of a second Amadeus, but want to have a more open mind. The Thorens Td-124 or Girrard 301 route is an interesting idea, but I admit that it may not be the best idea for me.

It all depends of what "sound" you want to get from your second turntable. I've gone through at least a dozen in the last 5 years (VPI, Rega, Thorens TD124, TD125, Project, Empire 298 and 598, ...)

The modern tables were too cold and analytical for me, at time I felt like I was listening to a CD. Kudos for accuracy, but they scored low on deliciousness. The rim-drive Thorens TD124 (I had 2 of them) sounded great, but I had rumble issues - even after refurbing them replacing some key parts.

The ones I kept are the Thorens TD125ii with SME 3009ii tonearm and the Empire 398. I made my decision based on sound, they both sounded very warm, relaxed and delicious. They made vinyl sound like vinyl and not CD.

I have no doubt that someone else would have preferred the Rega or VPI with they more precise sound.

That's why I think it's crucial to know ahead of time what kind of experience you want from your second turntable before one can make recommendations.

Hope this helps,

Alberto

PS Photo of my favorite turntable. Still with me after 6+ years.

http://usr.AudioAsylum.com/images/3/...on_TD125_1.JPG

DesW 04-15-2012 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 298417)
I have been trying to gather ideas for a second TT setup. I own a Well-Tempered Amadeus with an Emt Tsd-15N cartridge. This a great combination, that for the money may be hard to beat. I don't want to exceed the general price range of my current setup, but am open minded to spending a little less. I have actually thought of a second Amadeus, but want to have a more open mind. The Thorens Td-124 or Girrard 301 route is an interesting idea, but I admit that it may not be the best idea for me.

Duhhh-- The EMT on the Lightweight WT Arm?-- is it stripped down?--my recollections of the EMT's-- is bulk and mass.

Great Carts though--good one if it worked for you--kudos!

Des

AndyPandy 04-15-2012 05:50 PM

I'd suggest the Simplex, which I own. I heard it back to back with the Amadeus and there isn't much in it, if anything. Add a XXv2 or 20X2 L and you are set.

fjn04 04-15-2012 06:30 PM

Hay Des- Yes, it is the nude version of the TSD-15. It is a great match with the Amadeus. Again, I am very satisfied with my setup. It's not going anywhere.
I simply want to have another alternative. I am running a Monbrison in to a pair of EL34 Corton Charlemagnes's. I have both a Choir Hashimoto H7, with lo/Hi impedance settings and an AUD 23 standard (Denon 103) SUT's.
AndyPandy- Thanks for the suggestion, the XX-2 Mk. 2 and 20X2
are well matched to the Shindo preamps. Greatly appreciated.
Are you using a Shindo pre by any chance ?
Alberto-Thanks much. If I may steal your saying, your TD125 II
looks quite JUICY. Are you running the Clearaudio Maestro MM
direct in to your Shindo pre MM input's. Wasn't sure which cart
you were using...?

Alberto 04-15-2012 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 298488)
Alberto-Thanks much. If I may steal your saying, your TD125 II
looks quite JUICY. Are you running the Clearaudio Maestro MM
direct in to your Shindo pre MM input's. Wasn't sure which cart
you were using...?

I use two carts, both MM because there's something in MCs that does not agree with me. For records in good shape, I use the $1K Clearaudio Maestro, for some of my older records or records in less than perfect shape, I use the inexpensive, but still wonderful, AudioTechnica 440MLA ($100-200.) I also use the cheaper AT when I am doing non-critical listening, I feel better not paying too much attention when I am not wearing down a $1K stylus :-).

I've done a video review of the humble AT440mla a few years ago. I still stand by it 100%. Especially with the Shindo gear amplifying it.

Both go into the Monbrison's MM input - I just swap headshells on the SME, one of the wonderful advantages of having a removable headshell.

If I could not change headshells I'd be, like you, looking for another turntable.

Alberto

[ame=http://youtu.be/3bqQZhoYC_o]Audio Technica AT440mla - Review of Moving Magnet Cartridge - YouTube[/ame]

fjn04 04-15-2012 07:39 PM

Thanks Alberto-Nice review. BTW- as you probably realized by
now, I meant to say your TT looked delicious. Juicy is good, but
I am loving the deliciousness. :-)

AndyPandy 04-15-2012 08:54 PM

Quote:

Are you using a Shindo pre by any chance ?
Funny you mention that...just looking into it now. Atm - I am, shock horror, using the 515MC phono board in my Meridian 551. It is a very low output MC stage which isn't suited to my 20x2H - but I compensate by halving the volume. Of course that just fixes the volume.....

The 515 MC is also far too noisy - so it will be replaced in due course.

I am really loving the WT Simplex table I have, congrat's on your Amadeus. Step up again.

dirtbag 04-15-2012 09:40 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Alberto, your Thorens looks similar to mine

DesW 04-15-2012 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 298488)
Hay Des- Yes, it is the nude version of the TSD-15. It is a great match with the Amadeus. Again, I am very satisfied with my setup. It's not going anywhere.
I

Yoh,Yes When I lived in Hamburg I used to take the casings off the TSD-15s for use on my Breuer Arm--problem was as we lived in a high industrialised
area --I had to wipe the iron filings off the coils nearly every day-ha!

Like I said great Carts--still superior to 90% of the overpriced doozys on the market today.

Good listening,

Des

fjn04 04-15-2012 10:55 PM

Interesting-Nice table Dirtbag! What is the general price range of an
Artisan TD125 II. Alberto- Who built the Plinth for your TD 125 II.

dirtbag 04-15-2012 11:33 PM

fjn04,
I can't remember exactly but I think I paid around $5500 for the complete set-up from Artisan Fidelity. Christopher Thornton is his name. Great guy, table was custom made for me. It's my first real quality turntable and it sounds fantastic. Warm, detailed, and wonderful bass. Check out his website. He has a lot of nice tables he has built. I have my eye on his Garrard 301 version

AndyPandy 04-16-2012 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesW (Post 298615)
Yoh,Yes When I lived in Hamburg ....

Des - where haven't you been mate?? The USA, Australia, Europe. Seriously we will have to have catch up over a cuppa sometime and you can tell me all your adventures...amazing life I am sure.

Thanks for sharing.

ronenash 04-16-2012 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberto (Post 298434)
It all depends of what "sound" you want to get from your second turntable. I've gone through at least a dozen in the last 5 years (VPI, Rega, Thorens TD124, TD125, Project, Empire 298 and 598, ...)

The modern tables were too cold and analytical for me, at time I felt like I was listening to a CD. Kudos for accuracy, but they scored low on deliciousness. The rim-drive Thorens TD124 (I had 2 of them) sounded great, but I had rumble issues - even after refurbing them replacing some key parts.

The ones I kept are the Thorens TD125ii with SME 3009ii tonearm and the Empire 398. I made my decision based on sound, they both sounded very warm, relaxed and delicious. They made vinyl sound like vinyl and not CD.

I have no doubt that someone else would have preferred the Rega or VPI with they more precise sound.

That's why I think it's crucial to know ahead of time what kind of experience you want from your second turntable before one can make recommendations.

Hope this helps,

Alberto

PS Photo of my favorite turntable. Still with me after 6+ years.


Can't agree with you more. I also have a Thorens TD125mk2 with AT 1005mk2 tonearm which I rebuilt with a new chasis and I will not trade it. I also have a VPI Classic 1 but the Thorens is not going anywhare. As you said, the Thorens is less detailed but has this warmth of great vinyl that's hard to resist.

Alberto 04-16-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 298626)
Interesting-Nice table Dirtbag! What is the general price range of an
Artisan TD125 II. Alberto- Who built the Plinth for your TD 125 II.

I forgot the name of the guy who built the plinth. But it was many years ago and he told me he was done with that business. Too bad, because they are gorgeous and the huge mass contributes a lot to the sound IMO.

Believe it or not, I got the Thorens on eBay: $700 with the turntable, SME 3009 tonearm, custom plinth and even a couple of vintage Shure cartridges. I had tables costing 5 times, or more, and I would not trade any of them for it.

The looks sold me on it, but when I discovered that it sounded as good as it looked I stopped looking at turntables.

Alberto

Whart 04-16-2012 08:13 PM

I remember using most of the TTs mentioned, back in the day. The TD 125Mk II was, in stock incarnation, probably the best; the Garrard 301 looked antiquated by the early 70's and had rumble issues, at least in the condition most of them were in by then. The Empire 598 was built like a bank vault, but the arm seemed very stodgy. I know that the rebuilt Garrard 301s are highly regarded- that Artisan Fidelity redo is gorgeous. Other period tables were the Goldmunds, which were pretty cool in the 80's, and the EMTs, which you see for sale occasionally (not cheap). I still have an old Panasonic SP 10 that I bought new, when the thing was not called 'Technics' yet and was offered in the same brochure as blenders and vacuum cleaners. (*Correction, I think this is the original, not a MkII, I bought in circa 1973?)
I had a Well-Tempered for a long time and it served me well, using a Lyra Parnassus, various Grados and a Van de Hul.
Among more modern tables, the one I had experience with that was reasonably priced used was the Kuzma Reference- not the big XL (which I currently use), but the more conventional looking table that had a wonderful suspension, was easy to set up and sounded great with a modern arm.
On VTA, I hate to admit it, but it does make a difference, although you can drive yourself crazy if you get too carried away. It's not easy to tweak from my TT's position away from the listening seat, but my arm allows easy, resettable VTA adjustments and if you bother, it does make a difference, even on a cartridge that is not terribly critical of VTA.

fjn04 04-17-2012 05:44 PM

I did get some info from Chris Thornton, on the Thorens TD 125. The long base version, which will take a 12" arm is around $2500. The motor upgrades run in the $850-$1000 range. Then, he offers Ortofon and Origin Live arms. One of the Ortofon's are $2100, while the other one is around $2900. A bit more than I wanted to spend, but this hobby has a way of making me rethink these things. I will probably do some kicking around on the ALLNIC website too. I believe David Beetles also does the vintage TT refurbishes.
Dirtbag- I assume you run your SPU direct in to your Monbrison then...?
I didn't notice any SUT listed on your system. Thanks !

dirtbag 04-17-2012 06:49 PM

FJN,

After paying for the Shindo gear and the Thorens, no money left for an SUT.
Sounds incredible to me, but I am fairly new at this high end stuff.

fjn04 04-17-2012 09:17 PM

Dirtbag- Although I haven't heard an SPU direct in to a Shindo preamp,
I am sure it sounds wonderful. That's certainly what it was designed around.
Cheers!

gortnipper 04-18-2012 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtbag (Post 299378)
FJN,

After paying for the Shindo gear and the Thorens, no money left for an SUT.
Sounds incredible to me, but I am fairly new at this high end stuff.

I am sure it does! If you do want to try a SUT, try a Bob's Devices Cinemag 1131 Blue. Very nice. I am running it with my Shilabe into a Monbrison right now, and it sounds very, very nice.

It gets a good review in May Stereophile as well. Best of all, Bob is a good guy and his gear is reasonably priced.

sibelius 04-18-2012 02:30 PM

If at all possible, try and demo a SUT in your system before hand. My new Garrard 301 uses an older Ortofon SPU classic and neither the internal Lundahl from my Vosne Romanee preamp nor Bob's Devices new blue 1131 worked out optimally for me. Ended up getting a EAR MC4 that has 3,6,12,and 40 ohm taps. The 3 ohms tap is the only setting that I like with the Ortofon even though the Ortofon specs indicate the 6 and 12 ohm taps should be the ones that work best. Bob's 1131 does work wonderfully with my Koetsu, however. In my experience, proper phono matching can seem as much an art as a science.

dirtbag 04-18-2012 08:29 PM

So many things to ponder with analog. For now the SUT in my Monbrison sounds fine to me. My next step will be to re-do my room. New cabinets to reposition the equipment, re-decorate and incorporate some acoustic details.
I just don't understand why my wife doesn't agree that spending 20 or 30 K on my obsessive hobby not a good investment.

tonyd 04-18-2012 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtbag (Post 299863)
...
I just don't understand why my wife doesn't agree that spending 20 or 30 K on my obsessive hobby not a good investment.

...'... doesn't agree ....is a good investment'? Or did you mean what you said :D?

dirtbag 04-18-2012 09:30 PM

tonyd,
thanks for catching my slip-up. I corrected my post.
Of course it's a good investment, much better than new furniture for the living room like she wants.

countingbackwards 04-18-2012 09:42 PM

Who wants to spend all that money on furniture? All you do is sit on it, or put your beer on it. Unless it's a functional bass trap of course - then it's worth every penny!

JDK-Atl 04-18-2012 09:56 PM

Bob's 1131 is pretty much as Art Dudley states
 
I've had my 1131 for several months now, and it is still amazing...I "upgraded" from the base Auditorium A23 SUT to the 1131 after one short night of listening along with my EMT TSD-15n cartridge, into my Aurieges MM. After consulting on the EMT with Bob, he made my 1131 version in the 10/20 setting. However, as others have stated, there are some great options(and I really like the A23 still) out there... Best, Jonathan K

Mikeyc 04-18-2012 11:27 PM

I'm very pleased with my poor man's shindo turntable - a Lenco L75 in a Jean Nantais Plinth with an audiocraft AC300 arm and EMT JSD 5 cartridge. I run it into a A23 SUT and then into my Aurieges. The plinth is a hefty 75 lbs and is distinguished by its PRaT.



Here's some info on the table if you're interested...
Reviews | Turntables by Jean Nantais

fjn04 04-19-2012 12:04 AM

Gortnipper- Very interesting, because I own a Shilabe as well. Mine is the Stereo version. I tried it on a Basis 2500/Vector 3, but honestly did not get good results. I know the Shilabe is capable of much more, as I have heard it sound great in a friends setup. I tried it w/ my A23 (Denon 103) SUT, my Choir Hashimoto, and also the direct MC inputs on my Monbrison. I preferred the Hashimoto, but still nothing like what it did in my friends rig. I have since sold the Basis setup, but may revisit the Shilabe at one point. Perhaps the 1131 Blue could be the answer. What tonearm/TT are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks.

gortnipper 04-19-2012 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sibelius (Post 299698)
If at all possible, try and demo a SUT in your system before hand. My new Garrard 301 uses an older Ortofon SPU classic and neither the internal Lundahl from my Vosne Romanee preamp nor Bob's Devices new blue 1131 worked out optimally for me. Ended up getting a EAR MC4 that has 3,6,12,and 40 ohm taps. The 3 ohms tap is the only setting that I like with the Ortofon even though the Ortofon specs indicate the 6 and 12 ohm taps should be the ones that work best. Bob's 1131 does work wonderfully with my Koetsu, however. In my experience, proper phono matching can seem as much an art as a science.

Art and science, kinda like BW photography...:D

Did you get a 20/40 1131 unit? That is what I got, and am a bit surprised that the 40 tap doesn't sound a bit better, and that maybe I should have gotten a 10/20 unit to be more flexible with my Benz carts, but that is what Bob recommended. Maybe it just needs some more burn in.

My mate has a MC4 he uses with a Massetto and a Koetsu Vermilion @ 6 ohms.

sibelius 04-19-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gortnipper (Post 299975)
Art and science, kinda like BW photography...:D

Did you get a 20/40 1131 unit? That is what I got, and am a bit surprised that the 40 tap doesn't sound a bit better, and that maybe I should have gotten a 10/20 unit to be more flexible with my Benz carts, but that is what Bob recommended. Maybe it just needs some more burn in.

My mate has a MC4 he uses with a Massetto and a Koetsu Vermilion @ 6 ohms.

Yes, I got the 20/40 1131 and was suprised it did not work out better with the Ortofon. I have a local dealer who let me demo the MC4 over a weekend and the EAR at 3 ohms works very well indeed. However, I still greatly prefer Bob's 1131 and my Choir Audio H7 (with Hashimoto transformer) SUT to the EAR with my Koetsu. I'm sure the Auditorium Hommage would be better still with the SPU but $5K for a SUT is out of my budget.

restock 04-19-2012 06:59 PM

Don,

I am biased but I would consider getting a DPS table ;) - It has much of the strengths of an idler with the strengths of a modern deck. Interestingly, it is a based on a Well Tempered Classic turntable as well just like your WT is an evolution of the earlier WT.

Other than that, I would consider an Garrard, EMT, or similar to play around with. I owned several Thorens (TD150, 166) but never a TD125.

Regards,

Rene

fjn04 04-20-2012 10:20 AM

Thanks Rene. I know you love your DPS, and for good reason I'm sure.
I have another buddy who loves his too. It seems to be his go to table, and he has had an Amadeus, and now has an Amadeus DV500. I have been thinking vintage, mostly Garrard, Thorens TD 124...! Then found out these models by Dobbins or Artisan are a bit out of my $ range. Worth every penny, I am sure though. I know the DPS , generally sells with the Schroder arm, which I don't think is a good fit for me. I was thinking more of a high mass arm such as the 12" Ortofon RS, Thomas Schick, SME M2-12R.... Of course,after learning about the TD125's, I realized they were actually a belt drive. I didn't know if the
Willi Bauer DPS could accommodate those high mass 12 "ers.

FranklinLG 04-20-2012 09:38 PM

DB, I'm sold. I just spent time be-bopping through the site for Artisan Fidelity, which I can't link here, but people can search for! Kudos! Very nice stuff. I'm looking into the 301!

countingbackwards 04-20-2012 09:42 PM

While I'm not in a position to comment on the different tables mentioned in this thread, I just wanted to offer my opinion on the concept of a 2nd turntable.

If I was to add a second table, it would be one of two things: either completely different than what I have (like a mass-loaded rebuilt Lenco), or a "project" table to tackle rebuilding from a hobbyist's perspective.

If you like your table so much that to choose a 2nd one would be to choose one of a similar design, my suggestion would be to instead use a tonearm with interchangeable armwands or headshells. It would seem a poor allocation of both space and finances to go with 2 similar tables - although I suppose there are situations where it would be fun.

dirtbag 04-21-2012 12:01 AM

Franklin,

I just love that Artisan 301. I talked to Chris at Artisan the other day.
He says the Garrard sounds stunning. But with so many things to spend money on for my systems and the fact that my TD125MKII LB sounds great already, I can't see making the leap for quite a while. His 301 is not cheap. But it is the most gorgeous table I have ever seen. The table he built for me is beautifully constructed and flawless.

gortnipper 04-21-2012 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 299965)
Gortnipper- Very interesting, because I own a Shilabe as well. Mine is the Stereo version. I tried it on a Basis 2500/Vector 3, but honestly did not get good results. I know the Shilabe is capable of much more, as I have heard it sound great in a friends setup. I tried it w/ my A23 (Denon 103) SUT, my Choir Hashimoto, and also the direct MC inputs on my Monbrison. I preferred the Hashimoto, but still nothing like what it did in my friends rig. I have since sold the Basis setup, but may revisit the Shilabe at one point. Perhaps the 1131 Blue could be the answer. What tonearm/TT are you using, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks.

I have it on my Garrard 401 with a plinth I made. (excuse the dust :oops-0030:)

http://www.analoginstruments.co.nz/p...ureId=13469328


I was very disappointed with the Shilabe at first, and came very close to selling it, after having used it for a while with a Thomas Schick arm.

However, the combo I have with it now is pretty stunning, and the SUT has made all the difference. The arm is made here in New Zealand by a guy I know and is his interpretation of the Da Vinci Grandeza called the Analog Instruments Apparation. It is an awesome arm, and bests my Thomas Schick by a country mile - not even close.

Edit: It sounds pretty darned good on a modest Origin Live Silver mk2 as well. More punch than with the Schick.

adhesiv 04-21-2012 03:30 AM

So many choices...my hammertone 301 is collecting dust waiting for me to make a decision about how to build it out...

There's the LignoLab Plinth + Shindo Platter/Bearing/Mat upgrade
There's the Artisan Fidelity Route
And Last but not least the Shindo 301 Playback System

None but the Shindo come with a Tonearm/Cartridge so there's another set of decisions to make...
EMT 997, SME 3012 v1, other 12" arm??
And cartridges!?!?!

I'm so overwhelmed by all the decisions and with a table of this caliber the decisions are not cheap...

Why does this hobby hate my bank account so much...

gortnipper 04-21-2012 05:31 AM

I had a pretty mint SME Series 1, and it was not up to modern arms performance standards.

Shindoug 04-21-2012 12:56 PM

I too am entertaining a similar project. I was thinking along these lines:
301 / 401. Building my own plywood plinth (as per instructions on Art Dudley’s column) Thomas Schick Tonearm. EMT cartridge . Also considering the Solidcore One to Ten SUT . Art Dudley seems to like his similar combo – that may or may not mean anything. But it seemed to be a relatively cheaper way to get into the direct drive door. Anyone have experience with the Solidcore SUT?

Doug

gortnipper 04-22-2012 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shindoug (Post 300837)
I too am entertaining a similar project. I was thinking along these lines:
301 / 401. Building my own plywood plinth (as per instructions on Art Dudley’s column) Thomas Schick Tonearm. EMT cartridge . Also considering the Solidcore One to Ten SUT . Art Dudley seems to like his similar combo – that may or may not mean anything. But it seemed to be a relatively cheaper way to get into the direct drive door. Anyone have experience with the Solidcore SUT?

Doug

Feel free to ping me re. a Schick if you are interested.


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