Are Sonus Faber speakers "Hi-End"?
 

Prompted my a comment Mr. McGowen of PS Audio made in a video, I reached out to him & received this response. I am re-posting it here because it was in a public forum & not a private conversation.

bugeyed December 13, 2018 at 10:12 am #

Hi Paul,
I’m really surprised at your comments about Sonus Faber speakers. They are beautiful & many sound great. I have the original Cremona & they are wonderful sounding speakers. I have heard you make several comments about other manufacturers (B&W) & this leads me to believe that you have not heard these brands well represented with proper setup & such.
Regards,
Kev



Paul McGowan December 14, 2018 at 6:28 am #
"Sonus Fabers are indeed beautiful and I made sure when my son wanted a new pair of speakers for his home he bought those. But, that doesn’t mean they are what I would think of as reference quality or highly revealing – which may or may not be for everyone. Yes, they are musical and yes they are pleasant to listen to, but they are not what I consider high-end.

B and W speakers and I go way back and I have never been a fan. Their tweeter and voicing are too far forward and aggressive for my tastes."

I am not as familiar with the newer Sonus Faber speakers but back in the day they were definitely a “colored” and “euphonic” speaker just like some others were in fact too aggressive and forward sounding. I don’t know if there really is such a thing as a true “reference” speaker since they all are voiced and designed by the taste of their respective designer but the Sonus Faber is just as “high end” as any other speaker from respected manufacturers today. It’s a question of what suits your taste and system Synergy more. I understand what Paul is saying although I would not agree with his choice of wording the description of Sonus Faber as not high end. In any case, chasing a true high end or reference grade speaker is a pipe dream with our current technology, they are all colored or tonally misbalanced in one way or another not to mention their interaction with and acoustics of the listening room where they are placed.

Who cares if someone thinks your favorite brand is high end or not anyways as long as they are bringing you listening pleasure in the end?

Are Sonus Faber speakers "Hi-End"?
 

If the Arnie Nudell speakers in the PS Audio room at RMAF are an indication of what Paul thinks of as “high end” speakers, I can understand why he wouldn’t care so much for SF. To each his own.

The only reason I pay attention to what Paul is saying is to understand what his idea of good sound is. I have a PS Audio Directstream DAC, & he is instrumental in "voicing" the software. His idea of what sounds good touches my system with each update. So far, so good ;)
I agree that my speakers are colored, but every speaker is it's own flavor. BTW I know someone who was not impressed at all with the sound of Paul's IRS V setup so onward we go into the fog.
Kev

I think there are so many biases when it comes to speakers ,or for that matter any audio product, that we should all take all opinion with a grain of salt.

All speakers are colored in their own way. :smoking:

High End... Define high end? Exotic cabinets, exotic and high accuracy drivers such as tweeters that do not break up into the stratospheric frequency range where our own hearing cuts out at 20kHz? More like 12-15kHz as we start to age... :D

So the pretty typical scenario is: One reads all the reviews and listens to opinions which the internet is filled to the brim with, goes for the brand XYZ “high end” speaker capable of plumbing the 20Hz depths to 25kHz extremes that drives the neighborhood dogs crazy but one can’t hear the upper end to begin with. A said speaker is placed in suboptimal listening space where the excessive bass response excites room modes that rattle the house from the roof to the basement and resembles anything but high end bass response. The midrange is obliterated with bass overhang, bloom and ripeness, the early reflections of the untreated room cause a brain overload and listening fatigue in 5 min flat, your favorite music sounds like crap but surely the brand XYX cable upgrade will bring about a miraculous change... if not a better DAC or preamp will. In the mean time...
You wife looks at you funny, your dog hates you, your wallet despises you, the high end speaker sounds anything but high end in your room but at least the EGO says... I have a High End speaker. :smoking:

No, it’s not the way this hobby should be. :no:

Listen less to what others think and listen to a speaker that will bring you the most pleasure in the acoustic space you will be enjoying it in.

If you know someone’s (including reviewers) taste and preferences, and trust that they use sound (pun intended) judgement, then their opinions can be useful as general guidance, but in the end you should rely on your own judgement and taste, since only you have to live with the results.

I agree with what you are saying but in the end that same speaker will still sound very different in your room vs where the audition or review took place not to mention the associated gear and differences that also brings. That’s not to say the reviews are totally useless.

Yes, agreed.

Jim.......Absolutly!

The more I read from McGowan, the less I think of his opinions. I would say if he doesn't like a product, it's likely to sound great to many others.

While I don’t always agree with Paul, I feel he is entitled to his opinions and is as much an audiophile as any of us are. He has seen and heard many pieces of equipment in hundreds of rooms. He has earned a little respect if only for his long commitment to our hobby.

I agree.
Kev

I agree with Serge, define Hi-End ? All speakers are colored somewhat absolutely . I have 3 pairs of Sonus Faber Speakers, see signature below so I guess I am a fan of what the brand used to make not so much the recent generation. I think the company is riding on the reputation it used to have. The Pryma head phones were a purchase I made that I regret . Since the company merged with Mcintosh it has lost in my opinion, the magic touch of Franco Serblin and I hope they get some of it back.

The new SF Aida is the only speaker that I know of that I would consider in my room as a replacement for my Alexx. However, it probably has too much low and mid bass to be compatible with my Thor. Mike Fremer gave it a superb review (A+++) in a recent Stereophile but it did have a very peaked bass in his room. I believe SF has moved on to a more accurate less romantic sound. Kudos to them. Live in the present not the past. To say the SF is not the epitome of "highend" is just plain silly. It's like saying Mercedes is not a luxury brand or Ferrari is not a sports car company.

Charles

Ha! I agree. That being said. I've never been a fan of the SF sound. The only ones I've ever liked very much were the Aida's at Ivan's and at RMAF. I'm looking forward to hearing yours, Tony! Maybe you'll open my eyes, I've never heard your model.

Sonus Faber top line > Guarnieri, Serafino, Amati Tradition are sure high end.

Are the top speaker for McIntosh electronic.
Olimpia and the models below are not my favorite sure not really high end.

Pmc with Mc are too a great macht.

Just because something is new does not always mean it is better. Living in the past is not an accurate statement when your talking speakers less than a decade old. More accurate sound, what does that even mean ? less midrange and more forward high's ? What makes that sound better? I go to a concerts and I would'nt say oh this music doesn't sound accurate because it sounds the same as it did in the 80's ie rock bands. Its all just someones opinion.:yes: Romantic sound is another term repeated on forums, if having jazz and classical music sound good is romantic sounding what is wrong with that ? Playing a trumpet by say Chris Botti on a more forward sounding tweeter can make you turn the volume down really fast.

David.......I agree with you. Some folks have to minimize the choices of others in order to make themselves feel good about the choices they made. Kindergarten playground stuff, "My speakers are better than your speakers. Ha, ha, ha." Like I've always said, the only person who must be happy with my sound systems is me. I can't hear anyone else's sound system from my home, and that's just fine by me.

As for Paul McGowen's comments about high-end speakers, who really gives a hoot. Sure he is a respected audio equipment manufacturer and is certainly due the respect of his work and achievements, but sound is extremely subjective and cannot be homogenized down to a specific point where everyone agrees a certain speaker is the one to own. I'm sure all of Paul's employees nod yes when Paul speaks. The rest of the world doesn't work for Paul so no reason to march to his personal drumbeat. Seriously, most of the audiophile community can't even agree on the true meaning of high-end, much less what makes any speaker fit that elevated plateau. Does Paul have a right to his opinion? You bet. Is it any more valid than other opinions? Extremely unlikely.

While I agree with your thesis about opinions, there are valid reasons why some believe certain speakers sound closer to the original live performance than others.
If so, I would consider that speaker to sound better.

The execution of sound and accepted engineering design principles, choice of quality materials, and proven cabinet construction techniques can definitely contribute to improved audio performance.

A speaker that is built better is probably going to measure better. A speaker that measures better should sound better, al least according to Sidney Corderman.

Comprehensive and informative conversation. Some think ELAC B6 Speakers are great such as Paul McGowan I could not disagree more having listened to them on a restored Vintage NAD 3020 as well as an MC462, perhaps I am not getting the best amplifier combination for it.

One only has to visualize what is actually going on when an instrument is playing, in this case a simple 6 string guitar to realize that a lowly driver is asked to reproduce all the complexity that is going on at once. The pure tones along with all the harmonics of each string captured by a moving diaphragm of a mike and fed through a whole chain of electronics down to the lowly driver/drivers which are supposed to reproduce them all at once faithfully. It is rather amazing that such a complex waveform fed through the whole chain of audio playback comes pretty darn close to tricking our ears into a semi-believable facsimile of recorded music. :D

Watch this video and think about it. https://youtu.be/ttgLyWFINJI

Here is a good visualization of how the sound propagates in wavelengths using a string. This is really a string resonance phenomenon but it can be used to visualize what happens to sound in a room depending on dimensions/frequency. Notice how the string "amplitude" spikes in the left side of the string vs the right in this video. This is what happens when the sound interacts with the room modes and gets "excited" as well. https://youtu.be/oZ38Y0K8e-Y

Didn't mean to hijack this thread and probably should have started a new one on this topic but here is one more and I'm done. Well at least it has a midrange driver in the video:D String Modes. Good visualization of the resonant modes. The important part is the amplitude changes or why we hear the lumpy clumpy bass or other anomalies in sound when speakers are interacting with the room. It works in a similar way. https://youtu.be/cnH2ltfW48U

+1

Curious, I own a pair of Sonus Faber Speakers. I don't own any PS Audio gear. I guess my system is just not high end.

I just love the fact that Paul is willing to say something. He does a lot of education on his podcasts and youtube channel, but he does engage in excessive hyperbole so often that it taints what he says. Net on net though, he does a lot to educate audiophiles and aspiring audiophiles. He just needs to tone it back, but at least he's out there.

And, I love Copper Magazine, for which I think he should get a lot of credit. It clearly costs something to produce and I suspect adds zero to the bottom line.

I think it interesting that the new Aida and the Wilson Audio Alexia V2 tied for Stereophile 2018 product of the year. I read the review of the Aida very carefully. Although superb measurements don't necessarily point to an exceptional loudspeaker, the new Aida measured probably better than any speaker JA has ever measured. (However he did conveniently forget his accelerometer which he uses to measure cabinet resonance. I believe he does this when when he knows the result will be poor because he was able to detect modes with his stethoscope.) These truly otherwise excellent measurements were backed up by the unanimous positive listening impressions of the entire Stereophile staff. Therefore, it's my belief (I certainly could be incorrect) that SF has a new house sound. I'm a little surprised that PM didn't recognize this when he made those comments or perhaps he was referring to the "old" SF house sound, which is the sound the SF forum seems to tremendously enjoy.

The new Alexia (V2) builds on the very impressive strengths of the earlier model but the Wilson house sound remains intact. Apparently, the sound of the new generation of SF speakers is very different from that of their older siblings.

____________________
Charles
Amps: McIntosh 1.25KW’s (3)
Preamp and DAC: McIntosh D1100
Sources: McIntosh MCD1100 SACD player, MVP881 BR player, MVP851 DVD player, MR87 tuner, Marantz 510LV Laser Disc player, ASUS laptop USB (JRiver Media Center 23)
Speakers: Wilson Audio Specialties Alexx
Sub-woofer: Wilson Audio Specialties Thor’s Hammer (1) and Wilson Watch Controller
Cables main system: Audioquest Wel Signature speaker cables and IC’s; Dragon power cords (8)
Sub-woofer system: Audioquest Redwood speaker cable; Wolf IC and Hurricane power cords (2)
Power conditioners: Audioquest Niagara 7000 (1) and Niagara 5000 (2); (4) 20-amp lines

Awesome system Charles[emoji1360]. I think you are Hi-End[emoji41]. I consider myself Mid-Fi.

No, you are high end, he's ultra high end. :yes:

Thank you! I appreciate the compliments much because I have worked so very hard to get a truly synergistic absolutely full range system that is without obvious weakness. The last upgrade was the cables, power conditioners, and cords which hit my wallet hard.

Are Sonus Faber speakers "Hi-End"?
 

[emoji108]

Thanks Bart[emoji1360]

I enjoy Paul’s youtube education videos, anything that creates interest in the high end hobby is good by me. However, as a manufaturer in industry or insider I do not think it makes a lot of sense for him to describe another as “not high end” when their intent and reputation is high end.

His opinion of course, I have never owned Sanus Faber but have heard many and was always impressed. More musical than revealing or over resolving, but nonetheless, extremely satisfying. And in the end most of the time we listen and enjoy our system alone - so aren’t we the only one we need to impress?

Everyone has a right their opinion, but for a CEO of an audio manufacturer who is soon to embark on building and selling “high end” speakers to publicly make a negative comment about another “high end” speaker manufacturer stating that “they are not what I would consider high-end” is rather cutthroat in my opinion. I would have thought that the CEO of a highly respected major “high-end” manufacturer like PSA would have been above making such a public comment about a soon-to-be competitor. Just my 2 cents regarding this topic.

Fair point, I learned long ago never to bad mouth your competitors in front of your customers. There is simply no upside!

I love my Sonus Faber Cremonas for my secondary system.

In many ways it is my go-to rig for enjoyment.

Psychoacoustics = human subjective opinion of sound. You can't change what you don't acknowledge. I have seen many people not being honest with themselves when expressing their subjective perception of sound, which means that you both fool yourself and others.

Lets not forget each person hears differently, our ears are not calibrated all the same. Personally I don't care for hyper detailed sound. Piano and female voice are very touchy elements for me.

Paul apparently has never heard a pair of well set up and supported Extremas.