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The Vintage Altec Codex
Dear current and prospective Altec speaker owners:
In purchasing a pair of vintage Altec Flamencos (848A) I have been rewarded by so much great sound reproduction, and excellent integration with Shindo gear and low-watt tube applications due to their ~100 dB sensitivity and 16 ohm load. During the past 18 months that I've owned these speakers I've also become accustomed to their limitations and trade-offs, and have committed a great deal of time, effort, and money in upgrading them in numerous ways that stay true to the original nature of the design...what I would call OEM+. And trust me there is a lot to talk about here. Also, I've come across so much blatantly wrong information and dogma out there that I feel I needed to relay some of what I've learned. So, here we are. Please feel free to share your experiences and knowledge and perhaps we can all gain something from the discourse. Thanks! -Josh Linked to previous thead here: http://www.audioaficionado.org/723211-post25.html Quote:
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Altec Price List (Sept. 1967)
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Original Flamenco Magazine Advertisement
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Altec 806A (HF) & 416A (LF) Driver Specifications
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Reconditioning Cabinet Finish
The first thing I will start with is let's talk about cleaning up those nasty 50 year old cabinets... :yes:
I am simply discussing what I did off the bat with my new speakers to clean them up and restore much of the beauty of the original finish but I need to add a disclaimer here... if you are uncomfortable with any of this please do not attempt. I'd also recommend testing any of these steps on a well-hidden location so if you are not happy with the results they are not visually exposed. You are warned that any of these recommendations are ultimately at your own risk, and I accept absolutely no responsibility for damage you may cause. With that out of the way... I first recommend removing a half of century of grime, dirt, and wax build-up using Murphy's Oil Soap with a soft washcloth or microfiber. This stuff is very concentrated so go with the dilution directions (I made mine a little more concentrated) in a bowl with warm water. Squeeze out any excess and clean the exterior being sure to squeeze out the dirty water often and being sure to not have the cloth too sopping wet. Be warned the dirt that you clean off may shock you! Eww, disgusting! After you let the cleaning step dry thoroughly I recommend using Howard's Restore-A-Finish in the color closest to your existing finish. It does not stain the wood and the exact color is not critical - it contains a bit of dye to color match any scratches, dings, or gouges you may have. Just follow-the instructions on the can in a well ventilated area. If your finish is close to mint - other than perhaps a few water spots or sun bleaching (lucky you!) - then go ahead and use a gentle cloth. For the rest of us with 50 years of micro damage then apply with 0000 steel wool - the finest, gentlest grade. Start off with light pressure going with the grain, and continue using common sense increasing the number of applications and pressure as you deem appropriate. I found that I could use more pressure than I originally thought, and probably ended up doing it 3-4 times. Prepare to be amazed! There's a reason this is the dirty little secret that many antique furniture dealers use to restore and preserve their antiques. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AV8y2WqiL.jpg Lastly, I used Howard's Feed-N-Wax beeswax and orange oil polish and conditioner to protect the wood. http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514XoRfPP3L.jpg Good job! I bet you didn't realize how nice the cabinets could look, huh?! No more cup and pottery rings or minor sun fading. What happened to all of those minor scratches and nicks?! Nice! :thumbsup: |
Too funny Josh. I already bought those two Howard's products. I even called them on the phone before purchasing. They sent me a color brochure with finish photos, which I used to chose my restor-a-finish color. I think mine is medium WALNUT, but I will have to look. I have to confess, I have yet to use it on the Altec's. I only used it on another piece of furniture, with nice results. When I first got my Altec's, I used a LIQUID GOLD Product, which seemed to work OK. I figure because of the strong smell of the Restor-a-Finish, I may want to get the speakers out of the room. I hear you on the Turntable. They are such a revealing speaker, I'm sure any changes downstream are easily heard.
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Guys,
Great idea for a dedicated thread. As I have said in a number of previous posts, my 846A's, which I have run with Shindo for several years, took a leap upwards in listenability when I installed the Jabo Labs/Werner Jagusch crossovers. Better cohesiveness, any harshness/relentlessness gone, etc. Anyone else have experience with these crossovers? |
My grandfather owned that exact Altec 711A receiver you have shown. It was used in the system he had at my grandparents' summer cottage along with a pair of Rectilinear Highboys and the AR turntable.
I see it listed as a "100 watt receiver" (which meant 50 wpc back in those days) but in reality I think 30 - 35 wpc WRMS is truer. Thanks for the memories and good luck with the restoration of your Flamencos and be sure to post some pictures when finished. :thumbsup: |
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Incidentally, I recently acquired a number of pieces of Altec literature from the late '60s to mid '70s. I'll have to post them when I get a chance.
By way of interest, I own a pair of Heathkit AS 21 speakers which utilize the same compliment as the Altec Malibu: Dual 414A 12" woofers, 806A HF driver w/811B horn. Like the Flamenco, they're incredibly sensitive. I had been using the AS 21s in my vintage system but have been substituted for a pair of Altec 14s which I found more to my liking. I am currently offering the Heathkits. |
Hey Jay!
Could you tell us a bit more about the crossovers? Do they go inside the cabinet or are they external, and how do you wire into them? I have to assume you clip the internal leads coming from the screw tab on the input side, and then run new wire from the crossover to each driver? And you just leave the stock N-800-F in-place in the cabinet? This is probably one of the only commercial crossovers I've heard of for these speakers. I think I saw a picture before...will look up on eBay but if I remember correctly they use transformers (auto former?) and caps, so they are a bit different than the stock schematic I think. I bet they are awesome! The stock crossovers are so terribly limited in a number of ways, most notably IMO, they seem to get congested and bark at modestly high volumes, and the sound stage seems to congeal and collapse. At lower volumes they can still sound remarkably good though haha. Thanks for the info! Josh Quote:
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Those Heathkit look really nice... :yes: the only thing I might not like is what looks like an MDF front panel. Don't those have a crossover box that can be opened? I bet if you replaced the stock 2 electrolytic caps with some nice film or oil caps I bet you would be blown away! =)
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You are correct about the MDF. Fortunately it is only used on the front and rear panels; the rest is solid 1/4" plywood. Very nicely made overall. As far as the crossover goes, there don't seem to be any caps that I can see. What do you think? |
I left the stock crossover in place and merely disconnected all the wires from the drivers and the little plate (can't remember its technical name) that the speaker cables get connected to.
Then I used Belden hookup wire, recommended by Jabo Labs and also used by Shindo in some of their own applications, to connect these OUTBOARD crossovers to the drivers. I ran the wire through the little opening that remained when I removed the little plate. My Auditorium 23 speaker cables then get connected to the proper places on the crossover. Depending on which connection you choose you can fine tune the attenuation of the high frequencies to suit your room and taste. There is also a dial that can allegedly adjust the crossover point up or down from the normal 800 hertz. I have found it can make a significant difference in the sound. All in all, the crossover cost a little over $500. Truly a bargain relative to the improvements in sound it netted me. |
Yeah there are two electrolytic caps in the white cardboard box - should be a 10.5 and a 4 uF. So, if you swap them out then you will probably need to go with a 10 and 3.9uF. A lot of good options here depending on what your budget is. At the very least you could grab a multimeter and test that their values are +/-10%. ;)
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So is the area where you are running the crossover into the cabinet relatively well sealed?! Mine have ~1" oval opening behind the connector plate. :/ You'd be much better off using a small piece of wood drilled with two holes to mount to the stock plate locations and then drilling a tight fitting hole to pass your Belden 9497 through. If I understand correctly... Also I can post a pic of a previous wood plate I used when I ran my crossovers external if that helps.
P.S.: I would REALLY love to hear how the speaker balance changes with x-over point...that would be super interesting!!! Are you at the stock 800Hz position then? Quote:
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Thanks Junker & JayBass. That information is very helpful.
I've often heard the crossover point of 800 Hz too low and change to 1,200 brings dramatic improvement to the 811B's performance. |
Well some bad news today. I decided to head into Orange County Speaker to have the Alnico magnets re-magnetized today. Supposedly Alnico can de-mag up to about 1% per year and more if subjected to shock. So, OCS took them in the back to "test" while I was there and came back on one and said the voice coil was rubbing. I didn't hear anything when I took them out and compressed, but I have to assume the one was like that. OCS charges for re-mag'ing where Great Plains Audio includes this with a re-cone so I'm just going to send them in and expecting to be without LF drivers for a few weeks. Good news. I bet they'll sound a hell of a lot better when I get them back re-charged. :)
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Bummer Junker. How will a the new cone help the coil? I thought the cone referred to the paper driver. How hard would it be to find 2 drivers in good shape?
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Hey Rick!
Yeah it's all one assembly - the cone, voice coil, dust cap, spider, wires, and surround. He removes the old assembly, cleans everything, installs the new assembly and applies glue and the tar goo to the surround, and check that the magnetic gap is centered and not rubbing. Bill at Great Plains Audio acquired all of the factory gear when they closed down and still services per factory, as well as sells his new current iterations. He also re-mags the Alnico to factory strength as part of the service. They will be good as they were circa 1967. They should sound killer and have more bass now. :yes: The kit should look something like this: http://reconingspeakers.com/wp-conte...416SBCZ-12.jpg Quote:
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Nice, you will have to break them in again.
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Interesting thread! I am using the stock Valencia 846a with a Montille 6v6. I really like the dynamics and the cohesive presentation/musicality. Compared with my Devore 9’s, the Altecs are lacking some low frequency extension which, I suppose, I can accept. The Altecs also seem to be missing the warmth and especiallly the tone of the 9’s. I am not sure ‘tone’ is the right descriptor, but the 9’s sound more ‘colorful.’ For me, this is a very important aspect of sound. Is this just the nature of the Valencia’s, or can it be improved?
I am likely to try the crossovers that JayBass mentioned. Will changing crossovers do much for the tone? Any other suggestions? Thanks!!! |
How big are the DeVore 9's?
The 25Hz free air resonance Altecs drivers really like ~10 cubic feet (250-300L). The Valencias and Flamencos only have about 5.8 & 6.0 cubic feet respectively so don't expect much extension below 50Hz. However, the bass quality is quick, natural, dynamic, and tactile due the light paper cone and high strength Alnico V magnet structure. The low travel driver also presents a nice load to tube amplification. I find the one thing that is really right about them is the mid-range to be honest - as well as dynamics and speed - so I'm not sure how to compare to what you have going on. The HF compression driver and horn is really more of a mid-range and picks up from about 1KHz to 10KHz where is starts to roll-off pretty fast and is pretty much nonexistent by 16KHz. This is my primary issue with the Altec platform. The best way to remedy this would be to add one of the two top Fostex Supertweeters which just sit on top of the cabinet - look for the brass body. Then just add a cap to crossover at 10KHz. This is my long-term solution to add that top bit of sizzle back to symbols, high hats, etc. As far as the crossovers go, then hell yeah swap those half of a century old crossovers out of there. I built mine from scratch as per the Altec schematic and reverse engineering a sacrificial pair of N-800-F units. For something turn-key I think the Mast Mutter units look awesome for what it is worth. The stock crossover unit - and domestically sized cabinets - are the main points to address with these speakers. I haven't seen Mast Mutter list anything as of late but for ~$500 it is a no brainer. The stock crossover sounds pretty good at low volumes but congeals, compresses, and gets shouty when pushed. It uses electrolytic capacitors, two crappy inductors placed side-by-side, and has the "L-Pad" variable resistor which are all limitations. And if you want to replace your captive OEM wire you have to replace the crossover for the most part. As Valencias usually have mauled front fretwork I'd consider having a nice 250-300L cabinet made. The port size can be obtained from a table in the Altec Loudspeaker document I posted above. My top 3 upgrades in order of bang-for-the-buck are: 1) speaker stands / tables 2) crossovers & wire 3) brass internal hanging hardware w/ washers to dampen the horn Hope that helps. -Josh |
Also, where do you have your L-Pad set? On a table I was using 5~8. This helps reveal the mid-bass -> midrange.
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Very interesting thread.
It shows the amount of passion and time necessary when one takes the vintage speakers path. Divers, magnets, filters all degrade with time. Restoration or replacement is difficult because very few people know how to do it correctly AND you can never know if the sound you get corresponds to the one that those speakers had 50 years ago. Some vintage Altecs have been "restored" or "upgraded" in such a way that they share very little points with the original character of the speaker. For a newcomer like me, the Altec world seems like a jungle. I felt completely in love with the bass of the 604 driver when I listened to an old version of Shindo 604's speakers a few weeks ago. http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/a...psrb54h1vx.jpg http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/a...pstayq4cxm.jpg The mids and the treble were not to my taste, and the stereo image too, but this was certainly due to the amp used ( a modern class AB Luxman SS integrated) and to the fact that the 604 is known to be the most difficult Altec driver to use. But the bass !!! Oh my !!! the very first time for me that I heard a bass so uncanny, so free and fast, and super super super clean. Like if the instrument was talking and I could hear every single letter. A bass so natural that it left me completely speechless. It also made me decide to look for a pair of vintage Altec's. The "Nineteen" may be the one the most to my taste in terms of mids and treble. Clearly the weakness is the fact that this bass does not go very low ( seems that fast and low are just impossible to reach ). The 30cm of the Harbeth 40.1 goes much deeper but it sounds completely "in a bag", "unbreathing" and super damped compared to the Altec bass. I read somewhere that the Altec 12' driver ( 33cm ) gives a deeper bass than the 15' ( 38cm). Is that true ? |
H Jerome! The 15" should have a lot better bass. I think the free air resonance on a 12" is 38 Hz vs. 25Hz with the 15". That speaker you show has a volume of maybe 250-275L so that is perfect to get the speaker closer to 35Hz. That would be ideal for me. I don't need a speaker to go to 20 Hz... sure it's nice but not worth losing everything else that a low excursion Alnico paper woofer can do. Field coil versions should be amazing too but I've never done a close comparison and I'm okay with the original Alnico V Altec design.
I'd just want to clarify what "original" Altec means. For the record their primary market was selling separate drivers and crossovers, as well as sectoral horns for commercial, industrial, and custom "built-in" residential applications. 604's were typically sold al la carte. So don't read to much into the cabinet or anything else - their drivers and horns are the "magic". And IMO their later residential speaker systems were compromises of volume (size) and some other factors to meet space, aesthetic, and price constraints. Every speaker is going to be a set of compromises and optimizations, so you just have to go with what matches your system and tastes the best. I'd love to build 250-300L cabinets as one of the last items with my speakers, but honestly I'd like build 604's at some point - the only other speaker on my radar right now. About those Shindo crossovers... not sure if it's exactly the same but this is a similar approach to what Mast Mutter sells. But both are a different approach to the original Altec schematic. Even Ken Shindo made modified Flamencos with a new cabinet and crossover. As long as one sticks to the Altec build principles in the speaker document it is Altec. =) Thanks for that pic Jerome... I <3 604's!!! http://www.shindo-laboratory.co.jp/info/audio1.jpg Shindo modified Flamenco |
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...pen%20back.jpg
My Altec Flamenco (Ole!) |
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Those modified Flamenco's by Shindo look awesome. I would love such a pair in my home. More pics of those 604's here :http://www.disquantique.com/view_pro...?product=13849 They are the speakers of the late Jean Marie Piel. Famous french hifi guru, chief redactor of "DIAPASON". He drove them with Shindo WE300B, I do not remember the preamp but Shindo of course, and the Shindo 301 TT. |
good information on altec speakers and restoring cabinets great thread
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Junker,
Thanks for your reply. Helpful indeed! Larger cabinets for the Valencia’s are an intriguing option. I did a quick search, but didn’t find any plans or a consensus on the best design? I do think my Valencia’s sound better when I sit on the floor. I need to experiment with the height of the speakers. Any creative ideas for lifting them up a bit? I’m thinking hockey pucks? Good call on the L-pads. I have further backed them off to 7 and it did help. |
Oh yeah having them on the floor is no bueno. You might have a bit more bass but they'll require the horn more cranked up and reflect off the floor, and have a super low image.
Best idea is to make a simple table. Just have a piece of 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood cut to the size of the bottom of your speaker, and buy 8 pre-manufactured legs and just glue and screw from the top. Also, if you set them on a table I recommend removing the cheap plastic sliders on the bottom of the speakers so they couple better with the table stands. If you want to experiment to see how you like it maybe just pick up something cheap at Ikea, or use something you might have laying around at your place? This is an older pic but I'll post something better this week. ;-) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...hread/room.jpg |
I have ordered the external crossovers by Mast Mutter. They should ship early next week.
I am wondering the best way to run the wires into the speakers. The previous owner of my Valencia's modified the back with a plate that accepts banana plugs. I could either remove the plate and maybe cover the opening with a piece of wood then drill through that or I could replace the back entirely. If I replace the back entirely, what type of wood is recommended? Also, what type of material would replace the foam on the inside back of the originals? Junker, thanks for your input. The inside of your speaker is so clean. The crossovers look great! Is that carpet padding? |
These are some good questions!
Well, you don't need to run the crossover boards externally so you could run the same banana plug plate to your crossover and mount it on the inside-right wall. If you are wanting to go external than I'd suggest just making a new plate with holes for the wires to the drivers. Making the rear panel is actually a lot harder than you would think and might make a nice longer-term project. I used 3/4" Baltic Birch. Just one example of something that makes it a bit harder than you would think is that the HF compression driver extends just about all the way through the rear panel, so most likely you need to make a hole and cap it. I used 3/4" Baltic Birch here as well which is infinitely better than the stock masonite cover and also serves as a brace. Even so, I'd recommend making a brace similar to what you find on the inside of the stock panel. I don't have one, but am considering it in the future. My damping insulation is wool felt. =) Take a good look at the stock rear panel and you'll find that about 1/3 of the area actually has no insulation on it at all and this is another area of improvement in the stock cabinet to reduce the rear reflection coming through the LF paper driver. |
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chipchas- I also prefer my DeVore speakers, to my stock Valencia 846A's. In my case, it's the 0/96's. Just more refinement in the mid-upper frequencies to my ears. However, I really need to get moving on my Valencia's. I heard very good things about the Mass-Mutter (e-bay seller) crossover. I believe the guys name is Werner Jagusch. Please keep us posted. Josh- may I ask how high you decided to get your Altec's off the ground ? Your stands seem pretty straight forward, but I'm still going seek out my wood guy. Carpentry is not my strong point. Cheers -Don
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You just need the horn at about ear level when seated so measure that regardless of being a woodworker or not. For reference, the top of my speakers are at 44".
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Thanks Josh- the TOP of my cabinet's are a hair under 30" off the ground, but there are four wood pieces that run around the bottom which raise the speaker an inch or two. Regardless, my guess is your stands are 14-15" high. Much appreciated.
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No problem. The dimensions of the Flamencos and the Valencias are a bit different. I just went with pre-fabricated hardwood legs attached to the 3/4" baltic birch base using all brass hardware. And I removed the plastic sliders from the bottom. I can't remember if Art Dudley removed the skirt from his Valencias but I would at least remove the plastic sliders. Coupling would be better without the skirt, but I'd personally leave it on as it is the original design.
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Junker,
Thanks for the warning! Any other potential complications I should be aware of if I change the back? I would assume getting the original crossovers and wire out of the cabinet can only help. How is the sound improved by changing the back vs stock? What about using the felt vs the original insulation? fjn04, I ended up buying the Valencias that were auctioned on Audiogon and which you originally posted about :-) I had been meaning to get your thoughts on the Valencias and how they compare with your O/96's. Thanks for that. Ill definitely keep you posted on the crossovers. Im still waiting for them to ship... I haven't had a chance to try elevating the speakers. Is there a large decrease in the bass output with them on stands? Art Dudley did remove the bottom skirting before placing them on stands. I too would like to keep the speakers as close to original as possible and so would prefer not to remove the bottom skirt. Im no artist, but I'm thinking the speakers would look a bit awkward on stands with the bottom trim in place? I'm open to suggestions. Thanks! Chas |
Hey Chas, I'll get back to some of your questions by Friday. Aesthetics wise I don't have any idea what they would look like with or without the skirt. I'd recommend is just placing them on some boxes or something from Ikea, or something that you might have laying around at your place to try out. When you do this you can turn the horn down a lot once it is about at ear level. Then you can get an idea what they look like and what happens with the bass. -Josh
Also, do you know how easy it is to remove the bottom skirt? |
Hey Chaz and Don! Have either of you guys tried raising your speakers off of the floor yet? Here is a picture of my Flamencos on the tables I built.
Notice there is no gap because I removed the plastic sliders. While I don't have a skirt on mine to remove they still have the lower trim and the table was sized accordingly. I never heard back from anyone on how easy, and reversible, removing the Valencia skirt it, but that it what would decide this issue for me. If there were easily removable then yeah I'd probably take it off when mounting to a table. |
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