New Yggy or Primaluna DAC?
 

Looking for opinions a new Yggy or the new Primaluna Evo 100. Beyond the obvious R-2R vs DS chip difference, has anyone had a chance to hear both or do a side by side. Considering selling my McIntosh D100 dac and looking for options. I’ve loved my Mac but it’s time for a change. My domestic budget manager isn’t convinced you can improve much on the D100 ... she loves all things Mac :)

I would love to hear about the same comparison. I’ve perused the PrimaLuna tube DAC webpage. The only negative I can see is that the clock tube is soldered onto the PCB itself. Given the lifespan of even 5-7 years or less depending on the actual usage, what happens when the Russian sourced clock tube needs replacement? Send the whole unit back to PrimaLuna? I can easily take it apart and solder in a new tube but not everyone can or will want to do that. That remains an issue in my mind but I have nor reached out to PrimaLuna to ask that question.

I can speak to the YggY dac myself as can others, it is a very organic and natural sounding DAC but I have not heard the PL tube DAC. :no:

Had a D100 and went to a C2600 (couldn’t pin improvement on DAC because I went to the tube preamp at the same time), then Gumby (improvement IMHO, but I like R2R), then Yggy A2.

Yggy, no question.

As Serge points out, its upgradeable, and sometime in the reasonably near future, Schiit may upgrade the USB receiver once again.

I’ve had the same question. The UA folks told me it would be about a 10 year lifespan if you listen an hour or two a day on average. Replacement would be non-trivial.

On a side note, the clock tube is supposedly specifically designed for that purpose. Thanks Serge.

What did you think about improvement going from Gumby to Yggy? Thanks.

Totally agree ... upgradeabily is a huge plus for digital. Thanks.

Have you heard the Primaluna DAC?

I thought it worthwhile (and wrote on a thread here in more detail). Took a long time to fully break in. Deeper stage, clearer, more refined. Gumby could be more forgiving.

Great topic, JWH. I was wondering the same thing. Especially, I am curious about how these two dacs would sound with the Primaluna EVO 400 amp and preamp. I love the sound of tubes, but having a tube dac alongside a tube amp amd preamp might be too much of a good thing.

ron

I've heard the Primaluna Dac in an all Primaluna system with Dynaudio speakers and it sounded amazing. Still can't get a loaner because the only Prima dealer in my area sells them as soon as he gets them. I bought my Yiggi without hearing it and it sounds good in my bedroom rig At Audio Science Review they didn't like the 2399 Yiggi so if you decide on Yiggi get the most recently update version which costs 2999. The Primaluna is by far the coolest looking Dac I've seen. I want to match it with an all Tube Mcintosh system. MC275 V6, and C2200.

JBT, we are somehow on the same wavelength of thoughts. Of course, having previously owned a MC 275 and C2300, I wondered about the difference between Mcintosh and Primaluna. In my case, after my wife died, I sold everything thing audio for a dime, as I thought I could never enjoy music again, but to my surprise, I just needed time to grieve. Now, more and more, music fills my days, and I find myself constantly planning my next system. My hope is that somehow Primaluna bests Mac, so in that way, I can upgrade my sound and avoid previous associations with unpleasant memories.

ron

The thing about PL that draws me is the tube regulation and rectification. Audio Research’s Ref series preamps do this as well as their Ref CD player. I currently own AR LS-27 pre and Mac MC275 VI amp and it sounds great but both use SS power supply. Nothing wrong there, just wonder how much better they might be with tube power supply.

It is all counter-intuitive with tube rectification. Seems the simple job of converting AC to DC should not matter much between tube and SS rectification. That couldn't be further from the truth. Tube gear does sound quite different with different tube rectification and certainly sounds different from SS rectification. Among the guitar players that rely on amps for playback, this tube vs SS rectification is a known variable and often discussed topic. :yes: It is no different for high end audio components.

In a nutshell,

You want fast, punchy, articulate, and accurate dynamics type of sound? Then you want SS rectification which is fast, does not sag and has little internal resistance.

You want a slightly more bottom end saggy, bloomy and lush type of sound, tube rectification will deliver. It has more internal resistance and can't quite keep up with dynamics without altering the response a bit from the sag.

Low frequency notes take more current through the power tubes to reproduce. This increased current causes a voltage drop in the rectifier tube and the amp loses power. So, when more power is actually needed, the amp gives less.


The above applies to amplifiers with loads. How any of this applies to components with less of a load such as preamps and digital is less clear but noticeable none the less. What holds true for amplifiers, seems to follow in other components but perhaps with a less noticeable or drastic effect.

I love Tube rectification, for whatever reason that sounds the most musical and pleasing to my ears and unfortunately the really good rectifiers (I use them only in headphone amps) are really NOT cheap. :no:

Good stuff Serge. I’ve read similar comments from other folks especially your sounds more natural comment.

My understanding is that PL offer a 30-day trial... may be the only way to put this to rest :scratch2:
Wes

As does Schiit for 15 days minus a 5% restocking fee I believe. You could have a shootout to be sure. :music:

:tresbon:

The administrator of the ASR forum apparently has on ongoing bias against anything from Schiit Audio, so I wouldn't give too much consideration to their negative comments on the Yggdrasil DAC. :scratch2: I haven't seen anything about a version of the Yggy going for $2,999, their website still shows the current version at $2,399 which already includes their Analog 2 outputs. I'd be curious to know where you heard about this new $2,999 version and any details about the changes it incorporates. I've heard that they're working on an all new USB implementation that is claimed to be revolutionary, but don't think it's yet available. Thanks in advance for sharing what you know! :music:

I know about the bias charge against Schitt audio. Couple different forums filled with angry Schitt owner trashing the guy. :banana: I'm not an engineer so I don't have any idea. I haven't seen any evidence Amir at Audio Science is a fraud or doesn't know what he's talking about. It is what it is.

Music is one of the great joys in my life and my Mcintosh MC275 v6 and c2200 is a very magical sounding system. Beautiful. Primaluna builds really high quality products and is cheaper than McIntosh. I heard the all new Primaluna EVO line when I auditioned the DAC. Great sounding system and it didn't have any problems driving the Dynaudio speakers.


Ron, it's good that you're enjoying music again!

I think its safe to say that because the experience of listening to music is perceptual, not an absolute (nor usually "measurable"),as a result, it will be highly subjective, and always will be. Some folks love gear that will literally drive me out of the room, other folks' sensibilities are more aligned with mine. How does one account for one person liking the sound of a Stradivarius more than a Guanerius, or the playing of Glenn Gould vs. Vladimir Ashkenazy? You can't, but you know what you like when you hear it...

I'm very much aligned with John Darko's sensibiities about all this. At the end of the day, it only matters what YOU like, in your room with your specific musical content, preferences, and sensbilities.

Personally, with companies now offering in-home evaluations and the ability to return products that just may not "work" for our respective tastes or sensibilities, I've taken to doing in-home evaluations to find out where I want to end up.

We live in a time where we have an "embarassment of riches"; its "all good", just good in different ways for different folks...

Sorry for your loss Ron. Had a close call with my wife last year (29 years married) and I can’t imagine the grief. I hope you find a great new system and create great new memories.
Wes

Folks that like to measure “things” can’t help but to be biased if something looks out of the norm. It’s human nature. No amount of listening can convince otherwise nor dispel the seed that has been planted. :no: If one was to simply listen and forget about the slightly odd measurement or two, one would realize that Yggy sounds extremely organic and natural without ever stepping out into harsh or sterile side of things. Can all DACs make that claim? I think not. :smoking:

Bill, did you know that the guy behind Audio Science won an Emmy Award for his work in TV and audio... back in 2006/7 I just read it on another forum full of people trashing him. I suspect he's pretty legit!

New Yggy or Primaluna DAC?
 

Like any review, a positive or negative from Amir at ASR shouldn’t overly influence your buying decision. It should be used only as one of many inputs to the selection process.

I have no reason to doubt the efficacy of Amir’s measurements. My only beef is that he uses a standard ASIO driver for all his DAC measurements instead of the manufacturer recommended drivers. What this does to the sound quality I don’t know.

What I have found by owning two products Amir has reviewed extensively is that I prefer the sound of the DAC that measures poorly, (Yggdrasil) over the DAC with impeccable measurements, (Topping D50).

I agree After reading through several hundred angry posts someone finally posted this


https://www.linkedin.com/in/amir-majidimehr-0014a75/

The issue(s) I have with Amir's approach is that he does things like a University-trained scientist: only doing OFAT when, instead, he should be doing DOE. He reminds me of the biochem professor in a graduate Protein Biochemistry I audited who unequivocally stated that only proteins could catalyze a biochemical reaction; he was indignant when I asked if RNAs could catalyze biochemical reactions.

6 years later, Thomas Cech won the Nobel Prize for his discovery of...catalytic RNAs.

"There is more in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."- William Shakespeare, Hamlet

That's a great accomplishment, but in my opinion he's far too objectively obsessed with his evaluations. High end audio is very subjective by nature, and even as an EE myself I realize that measurements alone do not entirely define the ultimate sound quality of a component under test.

Hard to go wrong with a Yggy. Great sound at a great price.

I think as of now, I lean towards the Yggdrasil for the R-2R approach. Would be great to hear the PL though... I’m checking the dealer network for PL to see what kind of drive I’d be in for.

Turns out neither dealer nearest me (2 hours & 2.5 hours to Charlotte & Atlanta respectively) have a demo of the Evo 100. Atlanta may have theirs within a week or so. We shall see.

Serge, your information about tube rectification is awesome. Thank you.

JBT, can you in any way describe the difference in sound between your Mac system and the PL you listened to? Of course, I understand you did not compare the two in a controlled context, but maybe you could say whether you’d be happy replacing your beloved Macintosh 275 and 2200 with Primaluna 400s. And thanks for your kind comment about enjoying music. Ha ha ha, as I’ve only got an Astell&Kern AK120 filled with Hires files and Sennheiser HD650 headphones, I feel I only listen to music, not really enjoy it ha ha ha. But someday, I will have a beautiful system again.

Wes, thank you so much for your thoughts. And I’m so happy to hear that you and your wife continue to be living what I imagine is a very beautiful life together!

Puma Cat, your biochemistry story is funny. It reminded me of my college days. As a second year chemistry student, I wanted to take an honors section of second semester organic chemistry lab, which replaced traditional lab class with an internship in a professor’s reserch lab. I wanted to work with Dr. Taber, but he said my grades weren’t good enough. I should ask Dr. Heck, an older professor approaching retirement ha ha ha. This was in 1982. Decades later, in 2010, when I was working in Korea, I opened up Yahoo news and discovered Dr. Heck had been given the Nobel Prize for his work on Palladium-catalyzed reactions. Ha ha ha, my friends said that he would have gotten the prize decades earlier if I had not worked in his lab.

ron

Ron, I really couldn't describe the difference after only a 30 minute session with the all Prima Luna system. I wouldn't replace my Mcintosh system with an all Primaluna system. Not because it didn't sound as good, but I've had the 275v6 and c2200 for years. If I was starting over I would consider going with Primaluna. You can get the Evo 400 integrated amp for 5 thousand and the Dac for 3. Great system and much cheaper than Mcintosh. The system I headr sounded amazing. The only thing that worries me about the DAC is the Tube clock is solder in so when the tube goes bad most people would have to send it back to the dealer or designated repair shop to get a new one installed

Good luck with your decision and it's great that you're enjoying music again!

JBT, thank you very much for your helpful comments. I will seriously consider Primaluna when I put together my next audio system. Hearing someone with great tube gear from McIntosh praise Primaluna so is the most valuable and trustworthy review for me.

:thankyouspin:

So a follow-up to the question on the Pl Evo 100 Dac. I traded emails with the US distributor about the clock tube. The reply came back that the tube will last the life of the unit. In the off chance that the tube failed, it would have to be replaced by a certified technician. I was told before by a dealer that it would last about 10 years, but the US distributor said that it should last for the life of the unit. I suppose if you could buy a back up tube inexpensively, any competent electronics technician could make the swap. I’m intrigued... again.

When I called Upscale Audio that's what they told me too. Still waiting on my Dealer to get a showroom model I can take home for a couple days to see how it sounds in a Mcintosh system before I order

Another review on the Evo 100. Not sure what language it's in so I'm only going to translate the conclusion



The last word
With the PrimaLuna EvoLution EVO 100 DAC, technology is quickly forgotten and the emphasis shifts to play and music. As it should be and what not every DAC can meet, regardless of the price range. Sometimes technology has the upper hand and offering options such as various filters, DSD, MQA, analogue inputs, volume control, etc. has a higher priority, in order to impress the volatile or less well-known buyer. That is something that no PrimaLuna has been seduced into. It is music, music and more music that matters. The EvoLution EVO 100 DAC has been playing with great pleasure for many hours. As I am used to from a brand like PrimaLuna without any failures and knowing the reputation, it will stay that way for years to come.


The EvoLution EVO 100 DAC can, in my opinion, play in the main class and will certainly be a welcome addition to the set for owners of PrimaLuna amplifiers. For everyone else, the EvoLution EVO 100 DAC may be the first PrimaLuna product in the house, with this display quality certainly not the last. And it may be the only device that has tubes in it, a tube amplifier next to it may be very nice, but it is not really necessary.



https://www.hifi.nl/artikel/28052/Re...Converter.html

Nice, that appears to be Dutch. Makes sense, I think their main design engineer is Dutch. My nearest dealer wasn’t sure when they would have a demo in but I would like to try the same thing as you. Get it home and give it a listen. I wonder if all the dealer network offer the same 30 day moneyback guarantee as Upscale Audio. According to their website there’s no restocking fee on PrimaLuna products.

I suspect the dealers will honor Upscale Audio's 30 days money back on new Products.

ON another forum I read a member had a dealer do a shootout with the PrimaLuna Dac and the PS Direct Stream Dac and he liked the Luna Dac better. More analogue sounding to him. Thought the Direct Stream is the warmer sounding of the two which surprised him because the Luna has tubes.