|
Breakin' in the Studio 2's .......
1 Attachment(s)
tweaking the positioning of the new Studio 2's ....... so far so good !
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1462/...9a9ff2d6_b.jpg |
:tresbon:
Really Nice!!! |
Nice room!
|
Looks great Dave. Hope it sounds just a good.
|
I'm getting so close to buying a pair of Studio 2's. Beautiful room!
|
Nice system!
|
Well done Dave, nice system.
|
Very nice, Dave. :thumbsup:
Are those Rogue mono-blocks driving them or are you using the large amp in the center (which I don't recognize)? |
Dave.......You've got that sound system looking real good. The Revel Studio 2's fit perfectly.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1462/...9a9ff2d6_b.jpg |
Quote:
|
Dave... Beautiful room and setup. The Revel Studio 2's look like a perfect match. :thumbsup:
|
Dave, congrats on the new Revels and a very nice looking system and room. Craig
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
If you don't mind me asking what make of amp stand is underneath the Plinius?
I see you are also running a Fosgate phono,are you using stock tubes or have you rolled others in? Aaron |
Gorgeous! Just like my pair. Love em in piano black finish
You gotta get a set of Stillpoints ultra 5's under em tho. They LOVE having them under mine. |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Good looking rig. I'm impatiently waiting for my Salon 2s to arrive and I can tell you that your photo didn't make me feel any less antsy. I have a lot of work to do to get my system up and running. Consider yourself an inspiration.
|
We are trying to break in our new Studio 2s, and to adapt the rest of the system to these new loudspeakers. They are replacing a pair of bookshelf Sonus Faber Concertos (18 years old and still great). As noted in previous posts, it turns out that a major change in speakers is not always a plug and play experience.
They are now in our living room, looking pretty great in gloss black. They are plugged into a McIntosh MA7900 200wpc integrated, which itself is plugged into a Transparent Powerwave 8. They are positioned about 16 inches from the rear wall and about 18 inches from the edges of the credenza. The credenza holds out TV and the turntable. It is an Ikea unit. We were lucky enough to be able to sample them at the audio store using a McIntosh MA8900 on the 4-ohm taps, which is substantially identical in power to our MA7900 at home (the MA8900 has a modular digital section... smart). We are still in the break in period, we think. They have been running quietly at night and louder for listening sessions during the early evenings (mostly) (okay sometimes) (okay pretty late in some cases) (every night). We plugged them in on Monday, and it is now Thursday. Initially the bass was very thin. They were delivered and installed while I was at work, and my wife was so concerned with the sound that she checked the connections. It turned out that they were still connected to the 8-ohm taps. Oops. She switched to the 4-ohm taps before I got home, saving me the needless panic attack. The bass was still thinner than we heard in the store, but we know the break-in can take some time. Over the past few days the bass has become more and more full, and they sound pretty balanced now. The highs have also smoothed out. Here is where it gets complicated. The bass on the turntable was still thin on a lot of recordings. A/B between the CD player and the turntable on the same material sounded thinner (and a lot quieter) on the turntable. In addition, as the bass improved, it caused a warbling feedback loop on the turntable, so anything like normal listening level sounded like the vocalist was doing vibrato. Very bad! I mitigated this somewhat last night by slightly increasing the tone arm weight. That seemed to make the vibrato effect go away, at least at normal to loudish levels. it also seemed to improve bas performance on LP playback. It reached a point where Leonard Cohen's Ten new Songs on CD and LP were indistinguishable. The LP was a more airy, but the overall tonal balance was sufficiently close to the same as to make no difference to me. It is still necessary to turn up the volume level for the LP playback to reach the same output. The LP system is an unsuspended table with a low output MC. Now the bass is good, but still not quite as tight and confident as we recall from the dealer. We are not sure what to do about the bass. The room is our living room, so it may never be perfect, and maybe they are still running in. It seems like the sound is different every day. What if the bass continues to fill out? The dealer said it could take 30 days for the speakers to fully break in. (!!!!) More bass might shake the turntable even more. All of this is to ask: Is cartridge weight really affecting how much room energy gets sent through the needle? Or, do we need to move the table further away? Replace the credenza with a proper audio rack? Our old speakers had way less bass, so we did not have to contend with the issue of isolating the turntable to anything like this degree. Are we underpowered? The demo was with 200wpc, so why would it be different at home? Should we skip the power conditioner and plug straight into the wall? How long does break in take with these things? Has anyone had it take more than a few days? Caveat: They sound awesome. The improvement is sufficient to warrant the upgrade. We are not unhappy, just looking to get the most out of the system. Solutions not requiring a major spend (like a couple of MC601s) would be helpful. The credit card is still warm to the touch. Any feedback will be read with interest and appreciation! |
I believe it was Kevin Voecks (maybe Floyd Toole) who said speaker break in is mostly a myth.
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ths-and-truths http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...act-or-fiction Sounds like you are having room acoustic issues and should try moving the speakers around until you find the flattest bass response at the main listening position. You are experiencing bass peaks and dips at different frequencies. You might (probably) need some acoustic treatment in your room. Cartridge tracking force should be optimized for best tracking, not too little and not too much. If increasing the tracking force improved sound, that's good, but you need to measure to make sure it is not too high. You need to acoustically isolate the table and cartridge system to avoid room resonances affecting it. The location of the turntable is probably at a room mode where there is a peak in level at the frequency that is causing the problem. Does the table have a cover that can be closed to isolate the cartridge? You only need more power if the amp clips before you reach the SPL/listening level you want. Re: bass on records vs CD's: due to the physical limitations of cutting vinyl, records have to roll off deep bass extension and limit the amount of bass. CD's do not have bass limitations. You should try the amp plugged straight in to the wall to see if it performs better, it might. |
Thanks, Rex. A lot of good information in your post.
Especially informative is this: "Re: bass on records vs CD's: due to the physical limitations of cutting vinyl, records have to roll off deep bass extension and limit the amount of bass. CD's do not have bass limitations." For some reason, I had not connected the dots on this. Our old speakers did not reveal the difference, because they rolled of CDs and records way before the recording limits played in. We will measure the cartridge weight to make sure it is within spec. Set up was done by a pro, but I had lightened it a bit afterwards. Pretty sure I am close to dead on the recommended tracking force, but will check anyway. As to turntable isolation: That has got to be it. I am sure a proper rack would also help, but step one is to simply move the thing. We'll see how that works out. Room effects: I am confident that creating a worse environment for audio would require careful engineering. :scratch2: The left channel is near about 10 inches from the edge of a very low 250 pound sofa, and about 4 feet from a window. The right channel is next to an open dining area, but hits a corner about 20 degrees off axis (away from the listening position). Also, the left channel is on carpet, but the right is on an extension of hardwood from the dining area. We should think about room treatments. :yes: |
My Revel F208's are in a horrible living room too. Left speaker gets a bounce off a side wall of sliding glass door, right speaker has no side wall and feeds a huge open space.
Great thing about Revel is the wide dispersion from the tweeter wave guide. I have no acoustic treatment other than closing the drapery which kills the glass bounce. I have to sit dead center between the front and rear wall so I'm in the bass null, but the speakers still sound great. Floyd Toole says you don't need much treatment when the speakers have wide dispersion and off axis response is similar to on axis response. His research resulted in the Revel designs. Optimize speaker and listener locations based on the room and put the equipment where it needs to be. Amps between speakers for short speaker cables, short runs of unbalanced interconnects. Vibration and acoustic isolation for the turntable. There are a lot of ways to measure and smooth out the frequency response in your room. You want to get the most out of those Studio2's. |
The wide dispersion is one reason these speakers were attractive to us. We are grateful that the sound stage is excellent (wide, tall, deep, precise) as they stand, in my best guess eye-ball position.
These puppies weigh 112 pounds each. Tweaking their positions is hard work! |
If you can get your hands on an MEN220 to demo, that may be what you are looking for.
Adding room correction to my system was the single biggest bass improvement that I have ever did. I am a believer now for room effects, so it sounds like that could be a factor. I have a friend running more power hungry speakers with 100wpc, so I'd bet room is a bigger factor vs. your power. Quote:
|
Okie dokie. In response to Rex and Grasshopper's excellent advice (the MEN220 is an awesome idea but not actionable right at the moment) we centered the turntable on the credenza to get it out of the peak node and into an area where the energy levels were't shaking it.
We had a dramatic demonstration of this effect before we made the move, as we were experimenting. We turned up Leonard Cohen's Waiting for the Miracle to volume level 65 on the amplifier to form a baseline. A feedback loop occurred and the right channel drivers started bouncing like kids in one of those inflatable play pens, and then the amp's power guard kicked in. Yikes. Let's not do that again. I discussed the issue with my wife. She concurred that the television was not really very important but that the sound was, so we removed the television and centered the turntable on the credenza, giving its some breathing room away from the speakers. We also moved the facing sofa out of the center of the room, relocated the Eames chair to the bookshelf in the newly opened space, and gave it another try. The result? It is currently playing at level 75% and doing wonderfully. No feedback, no seismic waves, no distortion. Bass is awesome. Mid and treble are seamless. The Revel's sound like Devore point source speakers on a female vocalist jazz track... except they are playing Mr. Cohen with a chorus. Tonal balance is coherent and event across the board. Very awesome results. Now to unplug the amp from the Powerwave and see if it breathes any better with a direct wall connection. I will post pictures if I can figure out how to do it. |
Turntable positioning
Does putting the table in front of the speakers, particularly at above moderate volume affect the sound?
|
The turntable being too close to the speakers definitely impacted the sound. We had the record player and the television on the credenza. The credenza is not large enough comfortably to support both, so the TV was off center to make room for the turntable, and the turntable was on the left side of the credenza, much too close to the left channel speaker.
Yesterday evening we decided simply to remove the television. This allowed us to put the record player in the center of the credenza, far away from either speaker. This was a huge improvement. The system is clear as a bell as far as the amp can push it. In keeping with Rex's advice, we also measured the tracking force. Recommended is 2.3 grams, and it was at 3 grams. I adjusted it back to 2.3. Finally, we adjusted the speaker positions for better balance. The result of all these efforts? The sound is amazing - vastly more detailed and dynamic than before, and no comparison to at all to our old speakers. I have no doubt further isolation will improve the low level resolution in the turntable even further. The LP sound is so rewarding now that I have trouble picturing how it could improve, but with these speakers, who knows? CDs are a joy. I had all but stopped listening to CDs because they tended to sound flat, to me. This I attributed (mistakenly, it seems) to CDs generally being poorly recorded and lacking dynamics. Now I am reliving my affair with the CD collection and enjoying every minute. |
Not sure what you know, so don't take offense to my advice.
Stereo listening for best phantom center image requires sitting at the apex of an equilateral triangle. Speakers should be toed in, tweeters aimed at your ears. You can play with toe in a bit to adjust the image. The more precise you are with getting the speakers perfectly placed (same distance from back wall, same toe in angle etc), the better things sound. I liked the sound of my F208's best with the spikes installed. To hear some well recorded bass and kick drum, try Donald Fagen's CD "Morph the Cat". I use it for evaluating hi fi speakers and tuning PA systems. Happy to hear you are making progress and solving problems. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
He might already know that, I was just trying to be helpful. If you go back and read his first post and the others following it, my response might make more sense. Otherwise, sorry if it bothered you. Have a nice day. |
nah, I didn't go back to the previous posts, gotcha ......:thumbsup:
|
Specific to the topic of "breaking in" the studios, there was a period of a few hours on the first or second day when I played them loud. It seemed like I could hear the bass increasing from minute to minute. This was a brief but interesting event. After that, the bass was just there.
This is consistent with the information in the articles that Rex linked, above. All in all, making the acquaintance of these awesome loudspeakers has been a fun learning experience. I won't call it a journey, because the system is spectacularly satisfying now, in a way we have never heard before, and it ahs only been a few days. Any further changes will be iterative and small. The speakers now deliver the same sound that made my wife and I unanimously and instantly agree that these were the speakers for us. We won't miss the TV that much... |
Rex: Thank you for your advice and guidance! What could have been a frustrating and expensive mystery was understood and resolved quickly thanks to your help.
|
BWB, now that I've gone back an caught up on the previous posts (my bad) it's good to hear that you've got things sorted out. Room interaction is (as you've found out) huge and going from a book shelf speaker to the Studio II's is a big change.
I've had mine for over a year now and they continue to put a smile on my face. |
Quote:
I'm retired, spent most of my life working as a musician and audio professional (recording, mixing, editing, mastering and live sound engineer). These days, I hang out on a few forums like AA and answer questions if I have good information. Plus, I'm a big Revel/JBL fan. Enjoy your new speakers, you made a wise choice. |
Excellent choice. The bass may be the first thing you notice, but the superb Revel beryllium tweeter and smooth crossover will be the thing that will keep you coming back. The smart guys (other owners) on this forum said that to me when I first got mine and they were spot on.
To add to Rex's comments, it's rare for the place where your preferred imaging occurs to be coincident with best (or most) bass response. That's why, if you get serious about optimizing sound, some sort of treatment becomes the next important step. I've spent a lot of time playing with my room and even though Toole (who I admire greatly) suggests that a somewhat live room is his preference, it's entertaining to observe that Voecks prefers a treated and somewhat damped room. Their opinions diverge on this matter. I found that I sided with Voecks but only discovered that after I treated my room, which of course makes sense if you think about it. That is, there's no way to hear what the difference is until you actually add treatment. My room is set up more or less as live end dead end and I get both reasonably tight bass and wall to wall imaging, although I also have a couple of subs to make things even more complicated. :scratch2: In any case, room treatment is usually worth the trouble if you can manage it without discord especially with speakers as resolving and accurate as the Salon series are. Floyd Toole has a big room, listens to classical and also prefers to hear a bit of his room. Voecks has a taste for different program. That might play into it as well but my point is that a wide dispersion, flat power response device is almost always at an advantage in our small rooms at home yet ridding oneself of the first reflections and doing a little treatment for bass is still almost always a plus in home systems, especially with speakers like the Studios. |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:23 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©Copyright 2009-2023 AudioAficionado.org.Privately owned, All Rights Reserved.