802/803D3 owners - what amplification/upstreams?
 

So, what are you guys using with your D3? Macs? Classe? Other?

I just did a shoot out between Classe and Mac.

Here is a snippet:

This will be just a quick review, but I wanted to log my thoughts so atleast I could reference to this some time later when my memory becomes foggy.

I went to my dealer and brought my Classe M600 monoblocks to compare to the Mcintosh 601 monoblocks. I thought it was a fair comparison on a system that I was pretty familiar with.

We ran the Mcintosh 550 CD Player into the MC52 preamp into each of the monoblocks and then into the BW 802D3. We used Audioquest NRG4 power cables, AQ IC (I forget which), and AQ Oak speaker wires.

There were 3 of us there, so we took turns listening and listened to a variety of music.

Introduction:
The Classe M600 and the Mcintosh are well matched. Both operate at 600w into 8ohm, the Macs function with autoformers so it is a stagnant 600w into any load, there are variable taps in the back of the amp where you plug in the speaker wires depending on the nominal impedance of the speaker you are wanting to drive. The Classe M600 are your typical amplifier with increasing power output as the impedance drops... 600w into 8, 1200w into 4, etc.

Build:
Both are built extremely well. To put a Rotel or Parasound next to either just amplifies (no pun intended) the difference in the build and casing of the top shelf amps against the lower hi-fi amps. To rap your knuckle against the casing of either the Mac or Classe, you can tell that some thought has gone into the design and the overall feel of these top shelf amps.

Listening:
Honestly I did not know which would sound better, so we just went ahead and plugged either one and started listening. We took turns and ran through some CDs, we'd usually listen to the whole track because both sounded so good.

Sound:
The overall consensus was this -

Classe M600
- More dynamic
- Better bass
- Sharper edges of detail
- Slightly live-lier sound than the Mac.
- Imaging of the voice was not as good.
- Staging of the vocalist was surprisingly not as forward.

Mcintosh 601
- Not as dynamic, slight slurring of transients, especially heard with the presence of high hats, etc.
- Bass was not as present, but warmer overall feel
- Detail was there, but you can tell, it was rounder. Images especially gave a sense that it was more "analog" for lack of a better term.
- The sound was less "live" relative to the Classe. If you were to compare, it was like a small jazz club at a nice venue, whereas the Classe was like a party happening.
- Smoother edges of imaging.
- Staging of mid-stage/middle vocalist was presented in a more forward position than on the Classe.
- Imaging was very good

Conclusion:
I was very surprised to hear that the Mcintosh 601 presented the vocalist in a very forward manner, with the voice image at the appropriate height, and with good amount of air around the instruments. I thought the warmer presentation of the Mac was a welcome change for the lively 802D3 speakers, so I thought that the roundness of the imaging, the roundness of the sound, and the more blunted edges of detail was a good match for the diamond-based D3 unit.

I was just taken a-back by the forward staging, it was not something I expected. You would expect a warmer amp or warmer component to present the stage slightly behind the speaker plane, but not the Mcintosh 601. We all agreed, the forward staging combined with the warmer sound but still filled with detail was a very good combo.

In the end, it was a split.

1 of us liked the Classe on the D3.
2 of us liked the Mac on the D3.

Overall, it was a good experience, it's not every day you get to hear 2 juggernauts in the same room, in the same system, under similar circumstances.

Now I have a good idea of what's what.

Nice review. It's nice when you can switch out gear like that, and get a chance to listen to each in the same room. You definitely had enough power.

Yes, I enjoyed the opportunity to do so. Not many have been able to hear them head to head. :thumbsup:

When do you get your 802D3's?

I have been very happy with Audio Research with my 802D3's

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

Thank you, I feel relieved that I don't have to change my amplifiers.

:D

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

I wanted an integrated amp so I took Ivan's advice and got an Accuphase E-470. I'm very happy with the compatibility between my 803 D3s and the amp.

If you are looking for larger power capable amps and monos like the Classe and McIntosh then a few more would be Bryston's 7B-SST2 or new 7B cubed and Sim Audio's 880M. The Bryston's are 600 watts while the Sim Audio is 800 watts.

Joey, you did listen to some well recorded SACD's as well as CD's, right? The 802 d3s are so good/resolving, that they deserve hi-rez to truly hear what they and the amps can do. I agree with your basic assessment, though I have not been able to make the same exact comparison. I heard 802s and 804s driven by McIntosh 452/McIntosh preamp (not sure which one) and then 803 d3 driven by Classe M600/Classe preamp (again not sure which model preamp). My overall impression was similar: McIntosh more rounded transients, slightly weightier/warmer presentation; Classe, very detailed and dynamic, sharper edges transients.

At home I am using Classe Sigma Amp 5/Sigma SSP WITH 802 d3 and I hear it as a middle ground between the above mentioned combos--sharper transients than McIntosh but not as hyper-detailed as M600(the Classe M600 sounded a bit overly detailed to my ears).

It would be interesting to hear Classe M600 with McIntosh preamp, and McIntosh amp with Classe preamp. In my experience the preamp makes probably more difference than amps (although amps definitely come in different flavors/capabilities) .

In any case, I can't argue with the McIntosh sound, it is enjoyable to listen to. To my ears, however, the Classe Sigma class D amp/pre combo sounds a bit more realistic. I hear the new d3 range (especially compared to d2) as basically a chameleon, a neutral sound very capable of showing any changes upstream. It would be nice to have several different amp/preamp combos to switch between as the mood strikes me:).

I would agree with the idea that the d3 is a chameleon. They can sound extremely subpar or excellent.

I have the D3's since 4 months and I am very happy with them (2x 802 D3, HTM1 D3, 2x 805 D3).
They are driven by Arcam AV950 + Arcam P777, the 802 are bi-amped with
Tellurium Q Ultra Black cables.
Stereo and surround sound absolutly perfect to my ears.

Wow, sweet set-up, musicjunkie! I bet it sounds fantastic! I love Arcam with B&W. I have the A19 paired with a set of 683S2s and enjoy it very much.

Cheers,

Scott

I love your very detailed and PROPERLY executed review but...

One is made in China. One is not.

That ends the discussion for me.

edit: Sidebar. If you're going to go down to the monoblock road, the McIntosh MC601s are about the best bang for the buck there is for anything *not* made in China at their power and performance level.

I still love my Classe.

What's being made in China have to do with anything?

After visiting Classé in Montreal in April, I came to realize something about modern high-tech manufacturing. All the real work is in the research and development, and that's what the design team in Montreal does. Thousands of hours go into each new product, and the design team consists of engineers and technicians Canada, the United States, Asia and Europe. A global design team if you will. As Classé assembles everything in their own facility in Zhuhai, the only thing North American assembly would add is additional cost.

Best Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

:thumbsup:

Off topic, how'bout a little tease about the new Classe Delta range and when it will be released...:D:yes:

Hi Allman77,

2017. That's the limit of my prognostication.

Regards,

Patrick

It has nothing to do with anything if I'm buying an iPad, but it matters to me. These aren't commodity off the shelf boomboxes. If you're paying luxury dollars for luxury products... the SAME luxury dollars you paid before if not more, for the company to build products in a facility that costs *THEM* less money but those savings aren't passed on to YOU. What the hell is the point? I have made this exact same argument over on the Bang and Olufsen forums where it's even MORE egregious. Those are sold as not just audio, but luxury lifestyle products from the word GO.

When I'm paying a premium for a product I don't personally care about saving the producing company money in production. For that matter I can just buy cheaper gear. Part of what I'm paying for is the higher cost of production and providing an economy for the skilled craftspeople and assembly workers in the home countries of those companies. If I pay you more for your luxury product, part of that luxury comes from knowing my product isn't being made alongside everyone else's commodity product.

That's not to say that I have a problem with LOWER end lines being produced in China. B&O's play line, B&W's iPod speaker things up to the CM Series, the Classe Delta line for example. Just not the primary lines. It's easy to articulate all day long that as long as the R&D is happening stateside or Canada or Denmark or whatever that the end product "will be just fine". But that's not what I'm paying you extra for. This was reinforced to me when I was selling my Classe CP-800 a while back and got numerous people who asked me "Is it the made in china or made in canada version?". Once I said China they'd just evaporate.

The simplest example of this is Rolex. If Rolex began producing watches in China today. Their business would crumble within months and anyone who says any different, regardless if the watch was "just as good as it was before" is smoking crack. I consider Classe and McIntosh similarly premium products. If I want Chinese made I'll just buy Emotiva and save *literally* thousands.

Fortunately, McIntosh so far have avoided this error.

Hey musicjunkie,

What did you have as a center before the htm1d3?

Tony

Amazingly well stated with your conclusion with the Rolex brand contrasted with premier audio brands assembled in countries based on lower labor costs.

Good points however this doesn't account for "premium" products costing ridiculous amounts of money for what is often the case of market perceived better quality when in fact if you open the hood you will see nothing special so it cuts both ways. In these cases, if the products are being made in their respective home countries then it's also nothing more than price gouging, they charge the customer more because they can, not necessarily because the labour is higher.

Hi playdrv4me,

The CP-800 is a perfect example of why Classé moved production from their factory in Quebec to their factory in Zhuhai. The CP-800 replaced the CP-700, which retailed for $8000. Coming to market at $5000, it bested the CP-700's performance and added a host of useful features that the CP-700 lacked. Most of the reason why this was possible is because the cost of assembling the CP-800 in China was taken into account when it was brought to market, and that determined the retail price. Better performance, better features and $3000 less than the previous model. I'd call that progress.

Customers have a complicated set of reasons for buying what they buy, and price is most definitely a decisive factor. It's a very competitive marketplace, and I think smart companies find ways of increasing value and quality.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

I have to both agree and disagree with you somewhat. I vaguely remember when I bought my 800 that there were still many 700 die-hards for a few reasons, not the least of which was the heavy duty outboard power supply which the 800 lost. So yes, it gained some new features (the interface to be sure was light years ahead of the painful one on the 700) but there WERE some things that were integrated or made more cheaply.

So, OK, I guess 3 grand is not a figure to sneeze at by any stretch, and I see how the off-shore production could have helped bring that number down. But a 5k pre-amp is still firmly in the luxury side of the spectrum to me. I feel like this product could be made domestically and still be profitable.

But I see your point.

Just received my 803 D3's Friday. Magnolia delivered them, set them up and left my REL sub still connected and the same settings that I had for the other speakers. I traded in my 804 diamonds d2's for the 803's.

I am using a McIntosh MA7900 for the amp. I put about 25 hours on them this weekend but really haven't had a chance to sit down and listen to them. I will review them this next weekend when I have more hours on them.
So far I am liking what I hear!

David

Congrats, enjoy.

I'm confused. Magnolia takes in trades??

I purchased the 804 diamonds from them almost 3 years ago. They gave me exactly what I paid for them and charged me nothing for delivery and set up. It sounded like a win win situation to me so, I jumped on it.

Excellent upgrade program.

I'm curious about the Magnolia Upgrade Program too. Is this advertised anywhere, or did the salesman just offer it to you?

Yeah I didn't think this was advertised as an upgrade program...

I don't know about an upgrade program, my original sales person wanted to know what I was going to do with my old 804's that I bought from him. When he told me that they would take them back at full value, I really didn't have to think about it.

I called my Magnolia Salesman asking about an upgrade program and he said they would buy them back at their cost, which was about half the MSRP IRC. That's a no go for me.

My guess is it depends on the particular speaker. I was able to get 50% of the MSRP on my 803s when purchasing 802d3, but I originally purchased the 803s from another vendor (that wasn't interested in trading). I later was able to get 50% of 805's (d2) in trade for 805 d3 (I could have gotten more other ways but with more hassle on my part), but they weren't interested in trading in my htm2 d2 for an htm1 d3, which I later sold online. But none of these speakers that I traded n were originally bought from Magnolia, so YMMV. I will definitely say that Magnolia have been very willing to help me find ways to upgrade with them:).

I had auralic aries cp800 ca2300 to 2d2 and 2d3. Now i switched to:
Araulic aries Accuphase dc37. E 470 802d3.

Prefer the accuphase sound, control, above classe. No comparision. Pls audition yourself.

ARC for 802D3s?
 

Wondering if anyone has used ARC amps (GS150, REF250SE, REF150SE) with the 802 D3s or 803D3s? I heard the GS150 with a pair of Sonus FAbers at AXPONA and they sounded pretty nice. But I have a pair of older B&W 802s and am planning to trade up to the 802D3s or 800D3s. I probably would use an ARC ref 6 preamp.

Classe Sigma Mono with SSP
 

Hi All,

I recently heard the 802D3 and Sigma Mono with SSP sing together.

It really sounded incredible. Lots of bass detail, airy highs, dynamic and timing was excellent. Played Norah Jones Come Away and Pink Floyd Brick in the Wall.

At 350 wpc, it didn't seem any lack of power at all.

I did a check and found it is rated Class A on Stereophile.

Anyone heard these and what are your thoughts? Would McIntosh be a better choice?

Many thanks.

Devialet 440PRO driving 803D3

Brian

When I had B&W 803 D3 speakers, I drove them with an Accuphase E-470 Integrated amp with no problem at all.

Thanks for sharing.

I heard the mcintosh 200w integrated drive the 803d3 yesterday and it sounded effortless and well matched. Didn't hear it play rock or very loud though.

Then, I tried my Primare I30 100w with it and it sounded terrible. Lacked clarity, power, bass, soundstage etc. Thought it would have sounded better.

Also heard full mcintosh consisting of 275, preamp and SACD with the 805D3s in a small room. It was very detailed and open.

I think I will go ahead with the m601s with C2500 driving the CM9s...until I can afford the 803d3s. Probably get more music enjoyment then Primares with it. Someone quickly stop me if I am going down the wrong path!!! Am buying it without testing them together.

Would a digital preamp like c47 be a better preamp?

Btw also heard the Vincent monos driving the 803d3s..quite average only. Sigma monos better but on second listen, think they are a bit dry and thin.