Of course, I got it.
That leaves me with only one choice- Shindo amp. and a different speakers.
it seems, there is a consensus, that Shindo will not "work" with my Avantgarde.

BTW, can anybody tell me how much are Shindo Latour speakers?

I'm not trying to be hard headed here. Just asking, might as well be wrong in my assumption.
On a second thought- wouldn't modified Lamm with the input sensitivity changed to a value comparable to Shindo amp, be electrically the same, as Shindo?

I'll ask Matt @ Pitch Perfect for you. Depending on your room size, I really like the Alnico 604 ($34k) for moderate sized rooms. They are also available in a field-coil variant. La Tours are sweet but like a somewhat large room IMO.

Back to the future: Shindo's magical speakers - CNET

My room is 21' x 16' x 8'

Matt suggested you speak with your dealer or importer regarding speakers. Jonathan Halpern is the distributor in the US.

Sure,
I'll do that

Danke sehr Ekki!

The previous picture is my neighbor's system. We have had a parallel evolution... =) I went from a McIntosh MC452 to a Pass INT-30A to an Aurieges -> Line Magnetic 3w SET -> Shindo Apetite. Next year hopefully, I will have Shindo separates. Really happy right now. It's just at some point you wonder why one needs 500 wpc. Everything falls in place with the right speakers.

Waiting to have my neighbor help me lift these speakers back up on to the tables that I made.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...2054%2015.jpeg

Maril just to reiterate I'd suggest taking a good look at single-ended Shindo. You've got an AMAZING pre-amp with the V-R!!! The 8w Cortese is plenty of power. I prefer the dual 300B D'Yquem even though it costs quite a bit more. And if I was an oligarch then the 300B Limited for sure.

"if a pre and an amplifier are made for another - means we have a good gain match - than it is no problem to get the volume pots to the section with the best performance - even with highly sensitive speakers - and there is also no impedance mismatch which will cause frequency anomalies."

^ Yes!!! ;)

Personally, I think you would be okay with the big guys. Fun4Loops has the Petite LaTours in a slightly smaller cabinet but I don't know enough about these versions. Bigger cabinet will have bigger bass if you have the room...and I think you do.

I've heard the LaTours drop serious bass with the CV391 Montille before. :thumbsup:

@maril 555
No a Lamm with changed input sensivity is still not electrically the same as a Shindo - think about impedances!!!
And it is also not the same, because you have now a L-pad in your amps - it is something else to have a native sensivity or you gain something and at the end you drop it.


@Junker
Bitte schön;-))))
It is really a nice setup - both of you have something very special there - GREAT!!!!

I would like to see there one day a torque loaded drive system - like a Garrard oder a Commonwealth.


@maril555 and the rest of you all

With the Shindo VR you are pretty much at the pinnacle of what has Shindo to offer - so going further in this quality class is not a cheap thing...

And everything now should start with the speakers - after this decision you can think about the amplifier - do not make the same mistake again.
A SET Shindo is fantastic - but only with matching speakers - so start with them - and after that the things become more clear and easy (not from a financial standpoint....).

I am also not a believer that the most expensive Shindo amps are alway better, than the "class" underneath it is sometimes more different than better or worse.
People have often problems to accept that - because in "normal" HiFi that is seldom the case - most of the time more money means better sound.
So do a wise decision in the future - and use a good dealer with a lot of experience and talk to Jonathan.
And by the way - Jonathan gave you the advice many many written words before;-))))

Have a nice day

Ekki

Ekki! Yes, I would very much like to build a Garrard...and eventually an EMT997. Could you tell me what EMT SFL you recommend that I could use now with a 10.5g arm (+5g weight) that could migrate over to a 997 with headshell later? Thank you. Sorry OT. -Josh

Last thing- why do you think Shindo is not a good match with Avantgarde?
Trying to understand from a technical point of view.

I am not too familiar with those but they are efficient and high impedance. Perhaps try a Shindo SET with them and see?

Nice system

@maril 555
The impedance curve is not what a Shindo amp would like - they also need a much higher damping factor than an Altec like Junker showed in one of his pictures.
It is a modern way of " high efficient" horn loaded technology and has absolutely nothing in common with what we get with WE or RCA horn systems - or PHY HP, Shindo Speakers, Altec´s, vintage JBL, old - and I mean OLD Tannoy Autograph (new Tannoy is a little bit as new SPU - they nearly changed everything and let it look like the original thing - but is is NOT!) or what is made of the Line Magnetic replica systems - like the beautiful A23 products - that and many more (same direction) will work outstanding with such a Shindo amplifier system, with high torque drive systems, SPU, EMT, DL 103 carts and long 12" tonearms, SUT´s and tubed RIAA sections....in short really classic HiFi stuff with a fantastic tone.
Start with the speakers to avoid any wrong decisions.
Think twice - and remember we listen through a whole system - not a single component.
The biggest art of the whole thing is to compose a system - the Shindo way is thinking exactly in that direction - everything is made for each other.
But with a vintage Tannoy I would prefer push pull amps - with a WE horn system - even the LM replica or what A23 made out of it - I would prefer SET.
With PHY HP you do not need a lot of power - so a small amplifier or also SET would do it.
But SET today mans very expensive with Shindo if you buy new.
With the WE755 wideband chassis (LM replica) and the Hommage speakers from A23 you can decide SET or smaller push pull.
Do not think too much about the typical HiFi ranking system - it is not what it is all about with these green amps.
With the pre I would agree that there is a sort of ranking - but by the way the two box Aurige is outstanding and reaches much further than the price would suggest.
You already have one of the finest Shindo preamps - the VR is maybe one of the finest tubed preamps you can get.
But that does not mean only a 300b ltd would do it - again - first find your speaker - than your amp....


@ Junker....
The EMT JSD5 and 6 are the EMT philosophy at peak level.....
The 6 has the super fine line diamond, the 5 a Geyger needle (again sharper).
Both are identical - it is just the needle.
I do not know for what they made the gold series - and I can see the new jubi JSD with diamond needle is a typical high end product (bells an whistles...).
A naked TSD is also very nice - the original naked TSD - N is not anymore made - they do now a Jubi edition which has a modified back plate were the pins are now fixed - which makes it easier to mount (much easier).
The difference between the JSD and the TSD is not subtile - the TSD is the true religion, the JSD put a good portion of typical high end attributes to the mix - but without changing the basic ästhetics.
I like the JSD very much - it is one of my carts for the lonely island....;-))))

You will recognize it is one of the quietest carts you can buy - also not so very good vinyl is enjoyable - it is the DNA of the studio carts which you have there.

The motor of the EMT is very, very good - a lot of other companies use and used it.
VdH at the beginning, Jan Allaerts (with heavy modifications), Roksan Shiraz, Tubaphon (not anymore made), Brinkmann EMT TI.
But at the end I like the true original most.

You can use the JSD5 or 6 with a 12-max 19g arm - so no problem with today and later with the 997.
With the 997 you need a not too heavy headshell later - the Yamamoto Boxwood would work, also there is in Germany Kirschner - he is building wooden headshells and you decide which wood and therefor which mass.
And EMT has also it´s own headshell - and there are also nice aluminium shells.
Now you should ad the 5g - and you will have a very fine cart - no a very, very fine cart.
But think about the right SUT - the beast has a lot of output (1mV).
But we had that in detail....so read my older posts.
You can try to get also an original EMT SUT - sometimes they are also labeled with Thorens - it is the Haufe capsule inside with the 1:7 turn ratio.
The vintage Neumann capsules are very rare - but also worth to search....
And there would be the Hommage T2.

A nice Garrard 301, serviced with Kokomo Kit and a good matte (the original rubber thing is not very efficient), a new and serviced drive mechanism (new rubber wheel) and if you want to have it all a grease bearing - and for the eyes hammertone grey - that is pure sex....and will sound amazing.
The miracle is always to have it serviced and - same importance - the chassis (Zarge) - which is not so easy to make, as it seems.
You will see 99 times nothing to write home about and one time a proper construction.
The Ligno Lab is very good - to do it the same yourself is at the end of the day not sooo much cheaper.
Also very important is the armbase!!!!!

A match with the 997 is a dream drive system!!!!!
I would say your last record player.....if done right.
Get the SME bajonett version of the arm - so you can use a wide range of headshell systems.
It you make the base moveable (rotation of a centric bronce disc) you can change the geometry to match the arm with a G style SPU (A shells are not made any longer - the only one at the moment is a Shindo).
And - i repeat myself - get a Ligno Lab DL 103 body - strip the cart from the plastic body and mount it in the new construction...
After that you need a long walk and have to think about hifi and carts...;-))))
You have two opzions aluminium and brass/bronce.
The latter is very heavy 14g the body and 5g the naked DL 103 - makes 19g cart weight.
The aluminium body is much lighter.
It has to fit to your tonearm....
If it does - it is amazing.
Think also about the fact that RCA Dynagroove RCA records are best played with the diamond style a DL 103 has (Rundnadel).
That means you can enjoy all the Artur Rubinstein records you can buy second hand (original RCA) - and they will not sound wrong, as with a line contact.
And do not buy the "better" 103r - buy a plain DL 103.
Rethink the money you spent - 250,- DL 103 - 250 Ligno Lab body (both in €) - that is 500,- for that cart - and I tell you, it makes things you do not get from any other cart - price does not matter.

Greetings

Ekki

thanks Ekki - your posts are the best :)

Yeah thanks Ekki! I'm going to look into the LignoLab body for sure. ;)

Thank you all for your nice comments

To give some more information about carts and especially the DL 103 and it´s variants, let me write some more lines here.

The Ligno Lab bodies exists in two versions, a heavy bronce and a much lighter aluminium variant.
The aluminium version has also threaded holes - so it is a little easier to mount.
I feel that the classic DL 103 fits better with the heavy bronce shell, while the DL 103 R is fantastic with the aluminium version.

Keep in mind, with the heavy bronce shell you DO NOT NEED A HEAVY ARM!!!!!!
The DL103 which you peel off the old plastic shell together with the Ligno Lab bronce has a total weight about 19g.
So make sure your tonearm, which should have an effective mass around 10-12g can handle that weight.
Sometimes you need a heavier counterweight it your tonearm supplier has something like that in the catalog.
The aluminium version has a total weight around 11g - this version needs a heavier arm - but I feel that the compliance of the more modern R version of the DL 103 is not as stiff, as the classic DL 103 - maybe I am wrong and is just the different coil dtructure they use in the R version - in my book a 18-20g eff mass arm will fit perfectly.

The difference between the standard DL 103 versions with the plastic body and what you can make out of it with both Ligno Lab shells is everything else than subtile - it is dramatic!!

If you characterize the standard DL 103 as the leave the factory in Japan, the DL 103 is limited in the higher frequencies, it has a special kind of presence, which maks it not so easy to hear the limitations at fist listen - this lively presence makes also the intimate and special charakter of the DL 103, which let you sometimes suggest, the singer is sitting directly in front of you - the DL 103 can minimize distance, like no other cart.
But it is on the other side no master of spatial information, which lets you think in the cinemascope direction, like a SPU can do - it is more focussed on the mono events in the middle of the spatial picture - and there is the vocal.....
The low mids are saturated and fat and flow nicely, the bass is highly dynamic, but limited it the range - it is not a bass which will shake your gear.

With the Ligno Lab bronce shell you do not change the basic character, but - and this is a BIG BUT, you bring all the things to a much higher level.
The limitation in Bass and much more in treble is now nearly gone - it is not a Lyra cart of course, but you get fine details and a lot more spatial information - not only on the mono axis, also a far wider stage and something the standard DL 103 cannot do - you get pinpoint drawings of the signals which are not in the center.
The microdynamic is on a whole different level - and the macro dynamic is as much in your face and in your body as a DL 103 can do - and this is one reason for the fun you will have - it is an emotional cart - nothing to count rows in the concert hall, but something to get heavily involved into the music - it grabs you - and if you like vocals it is something, you never will forget.

The DL 103 R puts more HiFi to the game - but it leaves also some of the special things the much cheaper standard DL 103 does behind...
More HiFi - and in that range it is clearly better as the standard DL 103 - but, if you measure your feelings while listening - I would give the standard version a higher score.
As i mentioned above - I like the R version more in the aluminium Ligno shell, and the standard DL 103 is a killer cart in the bronce shell.

Also keep in mind, the standard version of the DL 103 is that cart, while you have a DL 103 compatible SUT - the R version has not an internal impedance of 40 Ohms, it has much less - around 14 Ohms - and therefor it is quite heavy to find a matching SUT - I feel Denon made it more for modern active RIAA stages - because with the change of the internal impedance the R has also less output as the standard DL 103.
These two things make it not an easy task to integrate it in a classic tube system as Shindo is.
But if you want to make a DIY SUT with some Lundahl capsules - and a nice enclosure, than you can also go for the R version.

Both are with the Ligno shells in a class of it´s own.
If the cart is worn out - you keep the shell and buy a new DL 103 - the peeling off session is than a sort of warm up for you - it sounds more complex as it is - there are also manuals to do that online - also short films at you tube.

Have a nice weekend

Ekki

Are the Cotter's made to pair with the Koetsu stone body carts just as well as the wood bodied?

I have the Koetsu Blue Lace, Vosne-Romanee, Shindo Lafon gm70's, Shindo 604 speakers and getting a Garrard 301 this week with Ikeda 407CR-L arm.

I've been using a Homage T2, but planning to use that with the EMT JSD cart I also have on the way (massive system changes on the front end right now). Would love to optimize the sound of the Koetsu too.

Sent you a few private messages, but let me know if you're not able to answer them (I think you have to be a paid member to send/receive).

Here are some calculations Bob from Bob's Devices provided and gave me permission to post. Does this jive with your thinking?

HI Brian,
When an input sensitivity is specified, that is the Floor, or the Lowest value that the equipment is capable of supporting without distortion or losses. Therefore you don’t want to use anything lower than 3mV into the Shindo. Since the Koetsu is somewhere between .4mV and .6mV (they all seem to vary within that range. I have measured different outputs from several Koetsu cartridges and they all are different, probably because each one is hand-made…I digress) So, with a 1:10 ratio, your output will be around 4-6mV, all above the 3mV sensitivity floor. 1:10 will work fine with the Koetsu, but the reflected impedance seen by the cartridge will be 470 ohms. Ideally, cartridges do best with about 10 times the internal impedance. Since the Koetsu has an impedance of about 5 ohms, the best match would be around 50 ohms. Using a 1:30 step up ratio would provide you with 52 ohms of reflected impedance and an output to the Shindo of about 13-14 mV. Normal phono stages will overload at about 10mV, however, the Shindo does not overload until about 1,200 mV according to their website. That is why you can use the Homage t2 with the EMT. My understanding (I have not measured it, but Art Dudley told me that he thought the Homage T2 was 1:40, which is why I sent him the 1131 (also 1:40) to audition. I have not been able to verify the step up ratio personally. If the Homage T2 is 1:40, then the EMT would be effectively producing through the Homage an output of over 20mV. Reportedly, it sounds great.

Based on this information, the proper step up ratio for the Koetsu into the Shindo is 1:30.

The ZERO has an output of around .4mV and an internal impedance of about 6 ohms. It is electrically about the same as the Koetsu and would use the same step up ratio.

If you were using a normal phono stage, and not the Shindo, I would recommend a step up ratio of 1:15 for both the Koetsu and the Zero.
I hope this explanation helps. Remember, I am the manufacturer for these devices, and not just a dealer, and am also a Registered Professional Engineer. If you want more information, there are a few white papers on this page:

bobsdevices.com/Instructions.html

Best Regards,
Bob

EMT puts out 1mV @ 5 cm/s - so at a 1:40 ratio it would be producing 40mV! :confused-12:

a cotter is an amazing match with koetsu carts . they all have 5 ohm impedance - it is a fantastic match!!!!!

greetings

ekki

In your experience, does any other SUT sound better with a Koetsu?

Dear bguptonm,

talking about Koetsu means a lot more than just the SUT.

First of all - the absolute basic ist the tonearm.
Koetsu carts have a compliance of 5cu measured at 100hz.
In comparison a Lyra has 12cu, a SPU Classic has 6cu a Royal N has 8, an Ikeda 9TT has 7cu.
As you might see, we need a heavy tonearm.
Most of the cases we will see a Koetsu at the end of a SME V oder IV, Triplanar oder Graham - all these arms are too lightweight.
Also the idea to use the most common SME 3012 is not a good ides - the only heavy SME 3012 was the first series with the steel tube - all later SME 3012 are also too lightweight.

You need an arm with minimum 19g eff mass - better more, from 19g the game starts...

Imagine a Fidelity Reserach FR66S has an eff mass of 32-26g (depend on the headshell)!!!!

Maybe you read in the different forums a lot about the Koetsu sound.
In most of the cases you weill read something like that.
Indifferent bass, whooly, over emphasized and not very deep.
Great mids - to die for, great vocal performanc and also strings are rendered very nice.
Rolled off top a little bit muted on top.

All these descriptions are true in a SME V, Triplanar (lesser margin here) Graham (also lesser margin) and so on.

If you pair a Koetsu with a proper arm - you will get something totally different.
Match it with a 12" Schröder with a Snakewood or Ebony armetube andyou have a totally different story .
If the matching to the arm is nearly perfect - you get the to die for mids - they get even more precise and the rendesring is not anymore flat in the localisation - you will have a nearly pinpoint rendering, the bass gets precise and deep and very powerful - no over emphasized spectrum around 100-250hz anymore.
The top end is open and cristal clear without any hint of grain - it sounds as natural as breathing.

And if you want to use a stone body coetsu, you need even more eff mass - my measurements show that they are even e little bit stiffer - which is somehow compnesated to the larger weight of the stone bodies - but not enough.

That is the tonearm story - if you reed the Koetsu official distributors advice you will find on the pint arm mass midle heavy-heavy - that is just half of the truth.
The mark should be on the word heavy!

Coming to the amplification of such a Koetsu.

If you match it with an active RIAA stage, you have to use 100 Ohm termination resistance.
You will read also here different things - because the SME V club tries now, with an incompatible arm, which also is slow in rendering and has a thick low end (but very comfortable in adjustment) - you will read about the termination practice.
One says use 400 ohm - it is more oben than - (remember ist sounds almost dull in the wrong arm) - and yes it is true - you get more treble out of the Koetsu at 400 Ohms.
But you losse even more bass precision, and the quality of the treble is now bad - the treble does not come anymore from the source which produces it - it comes in front of the source.
Imagine a flute - the attack is now located in front of the instrument - not a good thing.
So all the rendring in the deepness of the spectrum - from front to back is now destroyed - but it sounds more open and you get more treble - you compansate a bas tonearm matching with electrical termination, a thing which never will have succes.
Because a MC cart is a feather mass system - you HAVE TO GET THE RIGHT MASS (arm) against the feather (compliance).
You cannot compensate a mechanical mismatch with an electrical mismatch....
Some claim - use even 1Kohm - the things get more worse than I can describe here.

So - now, we are talking......

The sometimes bad reputation regarding Koetsu comes only from using arms, made in the 80ties and 90ties with carts in mind, as MM carts (Shure V15) VdH, Benz and so on....

If you use the correct equipment, than you get something very special - something you won´t find exactly that way one again.
A Koetsu can sound like heaven...it has something, I would call soul and there is flesh on the bones, and the midtones are amazing, the treble is clear, and natural and you can touch it,
The ambiance rendering is also in a class of it´s own.

Coming to the SUT now.

A Koetsu has 5 Ohm inner impedance.
We let the platinum versions out of the game for a moment....

And the Koetsu puts out something about 0,4mV - maybe a little bit more ( not the platin magnet version - I know).


The original vintage Koetsu SUT used Triad capsules - they were very, very good.
The original SUT had a fixed 5 Ohm position - and the whole thing sounded amazing - they are extremely rare today - and you cannot compare them to what is available today from Koetsu - the "new" SUT sounds dull and liveless....so forget that!

A cotter - and there is not one cotter - so read the technical specs - a cotter with a matching 5 ohm position is an amazing match - truly heaven!

If you use a SPU compatible SUT the Koetsu gets too much damping - such a SUT has a 2 or 3 ohm tap (position) - so it is a little bit too much.

Such a 5 Ohm tab SUT is also perfectly usable for Lyra carts, Zyx (low output), Ortofon (because today only the Meister Silver and the A95 have really low impedance - the Synergy is another story).
So a 5 Ohm tab SUT is a good investment.
Carts like Meister Silver and A95, SHindo SPU, Ikeda, My Sonic Lab, Air Tight and so on - means really low impedance carts needs a lower figure - the need a 2-3ohm tab.

A Kondo IO needs even a 1 Ohm tab - so another story.....

Hope that helps....

But keep in mind - everything starts with a proper compatible arm....
And I forgot - such a low compliance cart need also a high torque table - so no Oracle, Linn and so on....
A heavy table, like a Micro Seiki 1500 or even better 5000, a Platineis a great match.
A direct driven moded Technics SP10 also.
And idler wheels are what Sugano San used to design the cart - so a modded Garrard 301 or 401, a Commonwealth from Australia ( great table), a EMT, Thorens TD124 all are compatible.
Newer Designs with high torque is for example a Bauer DPS - in USA distributed by Ayre.


All the best

Ekki

Koetsu
 

Ekki,
Your excellent posts could serve as a primer on the subject of cart/ arm compatibility , as well, as SUT-related issues.
When you talk about Koetsu needing SUT with 5 Ohm tap, it's understandable, but the problem is, that many manufacturers don't publish this value, only a step-up ratio.
As an example:
Ypsilon MC10- step-up ratio is 1:10 and corresponding load presented to cartridge is 500 Ohm. (when terminated into 47kOhm)
Does it mean, that tap value is around 50 Ohm? As it usually about 10 times lower, than the load?
Also, there is a correlation b/w step-up ratio and the load presented to the cart:
The higher the ratio, the lower the load
So, the Koetsu SUT with a 5 Ohm tap ( meaning appr. 50 Ohm load?) has relatively high step up ratio?
BTW, do you have any experience with Ypsilon step-ups?
Thanks again

Dear guys,

the Koetsu SUT has a turn ratio of 1:20 - also the one we could buy a while ago - which is also discontinued.
The tab thing with the transformers is a special story - I think it should made things easier - the idea was - if you know the internal resistance of your MC coils, - let´s say an SPU (3 Ohm) than you choose the 3 Ohm tab - if it is a DL 103 (40 Ohm) you should use the 40 Ohm tab.
That does not mean, that the cart "sees" 3 or 40 ohm....
With the SPU on a 3 Ohm tab connected to a 47Kohm RIAA the SPU "sees" something about 50 - 60 Ohm - and the DL 103 connected to the 40 Ohm tab "sees" 100 Ohm.

So a lot of people think now...ok, - if I use a Koetsu on an active RIAA I should terminate it with 100 Ohm (as I wrote above) - so it is correct to use the 40 Ohm tab - wich let see the cart also 100 Ohm...but that is wrong.
SUT termination is something completely different, than with a resistor.
The SUT termination works with current, the resistor with Volts....as also the amplification is done differently current versus V...
So - keep that in mind.
With a SUT a Koetsu should "see" something around 60-70 Ohm.
With a DL 103 compatible SUT it will sound too nervous in the hights and the treble again does not come anymore from the source of the instruments - it is up front, which is not what it should be.
Listen always carefully - sometimes the first obvious thing is not that, what matters.....
A lot of people dance an jump because now the Koetsu has more treble energy - but it is not a natural treble coming from the source of the instruments - it is synthetic.

By the way - read again the tonearm facts regarding Koetsu - 80% of what we read is the sound of a not compatible adjusted Koetsu - worst thing - in an SME V arm, which can do miracles with a Kiseki, which is high compliance!

Have fun and enjoy the music
Ekki

Dear maril555 - no I do not have any experience with Y SUT´s.
There are so many fantastic SUT´s vintage and new on the market, that the big question is, what does Y bring to the table.....

Great SUT´s are: - to name a view....
A23 Hommage T1
A23 Hommage T2
Audio Note Japan S7 (vintage) widely switchable
Audio Note Japan KSL (now also vintage) switchable between 1, 3 and 40 Ohm
Cotter - all of them
Air Tight ATH2A - switchable between 2 and 40 Ohm
Air Tight ATH2A Reference - switchable between 2 and 40 Ohm
Vintage Koetsu (5 Ohm tab fixed)
Lyra Errodion ( also 5 Ohm tab fixed - especially with a Lyra Skala a revelation)
Jensen DIY
Lundahl DIY
De Paravicini vintage ones
Ortofon T1000 - great for SPU - but not the same quality as the Hommage T1
EMT / Haufe specially for EMT (has 22 Ohm and 1:7)
Vintage Partridge
Jorgen Shou great for SPU
Triad - found in old Shindo Arome
WE - also found in vintage Shindo SUT
Bent Audio / Stevens & Billington
FR sut - specially the low impedance types
And so on......
Not all are in the same class - but are good to outstanding - better than most of the more popular ones....

So what does Y do???? - I think another me too product....
It is not so easy to put a vintage FR or Ikeda SUT into dust...or a Cotter....in SUT technology everything was said in the past - and they built great ones - really outstanding ones...and you do not have to pay 8000,- for it....!
Greetings

Ekki

Ah yes excellent Précis of the SUTs Q--not forgetting the prince of them all

The Expressive Technologies SU-1

Thank you again for your outstanding contribution to his thread

DesW

Hi DesW,
my SUT list is not complete of course;-)))
And the Expressive SU-1 is really one of the best ever made - so sorry for leaving that masterpiece out....

Greetings to you all

Ekki

I am using a RWR Audio MCT-1 SUT.I have been told it is related to the Cotter's.

I have an Ikeda 407 arm on a modded Garrard 301, so sounds like I am good there with my Koetsu stone body. Just need a better matched SUT.

I'm leaning toward having Dave Slagle customize one for me. Just need to figure out the specs. Sounds like you are saying that a 5ohm tap will yield the best results, is that right?

@ Chubba
there was something like your SUT available when Cotter was still in business. But it is not what the blue SUTs were - your device comes with loading options, the plain Cotter SUT does not - you could choose between different turn ratios - these Cotter SUTs are very, very good.

@bgupton
Thie Ikeda is not as heavy as a FR66S was - just the first series Ikeda 12" 407 had the steel tube - later they changed that - today they changed some things on that classic again.

The Ikeda is never the less a good arm - not the same level as a fully restored silver wired FR66S with B60 - but a good arm.
The drive is amazing with a Koetsu - Idler Wheel drives, like your Garrard 301 is one of the tickets to get a tight bass out of any Koetsu.
If you own a stone body - congrats - that´s a fantastic cart.

Try to gt a low capacitance phono cable - as lower as better for the Ikeda and a proper heavy headshell.
The capacitance of the phono cable is very important - more so, if you use a SUT - because capacitance is multiplied with the turn ratio of the SUT.
As lower the capacitance as less HF stress will your RIAA / SUT system receive - as less grain you will have.

The whole run from the cart clips to the RCA connectors count.
A good idea is, if you do DIY stuff, to give the Ikeda a single run - nit the Tiffany amature....
One of the bst RCA connectors in this specific area are the Eiachmann Tellur Plugs...they do not look like real high end stuff - nothing to shock your girlfriend - but they are very, vry good - low mass, lo capacitance.
The same gos for the cheap looking Switchcraft RCA plugs, Shindo uses - looks also cheap - but it isn´t cheap - it is a very sophisticated technical approach behind it.
All the heavy brass RCA connectors are crap at the end of an arm-cable - as are 95% of all the high end connectors....

Dave SUT´s ar in a class of it´s own, as the whole guy is in a class of it´s own - you can hardly spent your money wiser!!!!!!

It is one of the very seldom masters of SUT design today - absolutely stunning!!!!!!

That sounds lik a nice front end....
Garrard 301 hopefully in a very well thought out plinth and fully restored, Ikeda 407 - a good arm-cable, a stone body Koetsu and a SUT from Dave....that is a classic example of things done right!!!!
Congratulations.....and much fun listening to great music!

Greetings Ekki

This is my Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum mounted in a Schröder DPS Custom arm, with a Snakewood armtube.
The arm has an effective mass of 22g with the aluminium headshell plate.
I use a vintage Koetsu SUT with this cart, it is made in the 80ties.
The arm uses a single run solid core 6N copper cable and is terminated with Eichmann plugs.
It has the large Reference SQ magnets and is mountd on a Bauer DPS III deck, which is also a high torque design.
https://imageshack.us/i/p5DppzXUj

Here we have the Kiseki Purpleheart, which was the companion from Kiseki to the Rosewood.
It is a different thing - high compliance and also high impedance (42Ohm).
It has, as the old rosewood had, a long body, which measures 3cm.
It needs a lightweight arm - here it is mountd in a Schröder reference SQ with a bamboo arm tube.
The arm has with the pertinax headshell plate an eff. mass of 9g.
I use the Kiseki with the 40 Ohm tab of an Air Tight ATH2A SUT.
The Schröder reference is wired wit a Nord Ost Valhalla arm cable - also a single run.
https://imageshack.us/i/pbe84jh1j

greetings

Ekki

PS - hope the pictures will show up.....

They do not show up on my iPad. Anyone else have this problem?

Not showing on mine neither

Thanks for all the great info!

Any particular tonearm cable you'd recommend for the Ikeda arm?

I'm not even sure what cable I have as it just came with the arm and I assumed it was supplied by Ikeda. I do know, however, that the connectors on that tonearm cable are too big to fit snuggly onto the A23 T2 Homage SUT I'm currently using, so I was already thinking of having a tech replace the end connectors. But let me know if there is a better tonearm cable with lower capacitance that you'd recommend.

Ditto on the headshell. I can certainly seek out a heavier headshell if you think I'll get better sound from it. Any particular you'd recommend that work well with the Ikeda 407?

Greetings to you all -
maybe I am too stupid to ad a picture....
I attached with the little icon the URL of 2 image shack pictures, there they are online...but here I see ? - apologies....

Try it once again now....AND IT WORKS!!!!!! - So I am not stupid;-)))))

So let´s have a little cart session - some of my MC carts and short descriptions...

Here you can see the Schröder Reference SQ with bamboo armtube with the Kiseki Purplehart - the Pupleheart is a high compliance cart of 16cu and needs a light eff. mass.
The Schröder has a system of variable headshell plates - you can choose of 4 different ones. The official eff. mass is calculated with the standard aluminium plate - my bamboo Reference SQ has than 13g - but you can tune that in a wide range...
Here I used a perninax plate which reduces the mass to 9g - which sets the f/res of the Kiseki to a little over 9hz, which is always my optimum....
With the Kiseki I use an Air Tight ATH2A with it´s 40 ohm tab - the internal resisitence of th cart is 42 ohm - a perfect match.

http://imageshack.com/a/img911/9330/e84jh1.jpg

And here is the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum in a Schröder DPS Custom Arm with snakewood armtube - this is a very heavy arm, whith the aluminium plate the arm has 22g - if you use a bronce plate it ads another 5g - so it is my heavy monster...;-)))
22g fits the Koetsu perfectly - the f/res is again around 9hz.
With the Koetsu I use a vintage Cotter or an also vintage Koetsu Step Up from the 80ties

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/2632/DppzXU.jpg

Here you see a Ortofon SPU Royal N, which is also mounted in the heavy Schröder snakewood arm.
It is maybe the most modern SPU - and I like the sound very much.
Cinemascope meets Kodachrome....;-)))

http://imageshack.com/a/img921/4047/72hewd.jpg

I spoke about the DL 103 Ligno Lab in some of my answers in that thread - here is one in action.
It is a real giant killer - it needs a light arm, because the beast is amazingly heavy - the cart has more than 25g mass.
To get a not too low f/res you have to care about the eff mass of the tonearm.
Normally a DL 103 needs a heavy arm - but in this particular case it is different.
If you like a voice directly in your face - this is your cart....

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/4955/JnPaOs.jpg

Another classic is the EMT JSD5 - which we discussed earlier....
It is mounted in an Immedia RPM II - today Spiral Groove.
I use the EMT together with an old EMT SUT from the EMT turntables and the built in RIAA stage.

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/9025/kXV7GT.jpg



Enjoy the pics and maybe there are some informations you might like

Greetings

Ekki







And here

Hello there! First post here! I have a question regarding the resonance frequency of the tonearm + Denon DL103 Lignolab Bronze case.
Why, should the arm weighs 10-12gr? If the resonance frequency can be calculated by this equation: f = 1000 : (2 x π x √ (M x C)) where f = resonance frequency,
π = 3,14
M = Total tonearm system mass which is a sum of Mass of cartridge, Mass of headshell and screws and Effective mass of tone arm (all values in gram),
C = Cartridge compliance lateral in µm/mN
then with 12gr ... f=12,5hz i calculate the mass of the Lignalab denon combo at 20gr
But, if you use a 20gr tonearm... then f=11,25hz
I have a schroeder ref. arm too! Mine weighs at 12gr + 2,5gr the headshell. I wonder, if i go for the above combo should i go for a lighter or a heavier headshell? Ofcourse, a heavier counterweight is mandatory!

Spyros

Al will be right back... :D

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/...g-geniuses.jpg

Welcome to AA! :wave: