Originally Posted by querstrommotor (Post 753065)

Dear bguptonm,

talking about Koetsu means a lot more than just the SUT.

First of all - the absolute basic ist the tonearm.
Koetsu carts have a compliance of 5cu measured at 100hz.
In comparison a Lyra has 12cu, a SPU Classic has 6cu a Royal N has 8, an Ikeda 9TT has 7cu.
As you might see, we need a heavy tonearm.
Most of the cases we will see a Koetsu at the end of a SME V oder IV, Triplanar oder Graham - all these arms are too lightweight.
Also the idea to use the most common SME 3012 is not a good ides - the only heavy SME 3012 was the first series with the steel tube - all later SME 3012 are also too lightweight.

You need an arm with minimum 19g eff mass - better more, from 19g the game starts...

Imagine a Fidelity Reserach FR66S has an eff mass of 32-26g (depend on the headshell)!!!!

Maybe you read in the different forums a lot about the Koetsu sound.
In most of the cases you weill read something like that.
Indifferent bass, whooly, over emphasized and not very deep.
Great mids - to die for, great vocal performanc and also strings are rendered very nice.
Rolled off top a little bit muted on top.

All these descriptions are true in a SME V, Triplanar (lesser margin here) Graham (also lesser margin) and so on.

If you pair a Koetsu with a proper arm - you will get something totally different.
Match it with a 12" Schröder with a Snakewood or Ebony armetube andyou have a totally different story .
If the matching to the arm is nearly perfect - you get the to die for mids - they get even more precise and the rendesring is not anymore flat in the localisation - you will have a nearly pinpoint rendering, the bass gets precise and deep and very powerful - no over emphasized spectrum around 100-250hz anymore.
The top end is open and cristal clear without any hint of grain - it sounds as natural as breathing.

And if you want to use a stone body coetsu, you need even more eff mass - my measurements show that they are even e little bit stiffer - which is somehow compnesated to the larger weight of the stone bodies - but not enough.

That is the tonearm story - if you reed the Koetsu official distributors advice you will find on the pint arm mass midle heavy-heavy - that is just half of the truth.
The mark should be on the word heavy!

Coming to the amplification of such a Koetsu.

If you match it with an active RIAA stage, you have to use 100 Ohm termination resistance.
You will read also here different things - because the SME V club tries now, with an incompatible arm, which also is slow in rendering and has a thick low end (but very comfortable in adjustment) - you will read about the termination practice.
One says use 400 ohm - it is more oben than - (remember ist sounds almost dull in the wrong arm) - and yes it is true - you get more treble out of the Koetsu at 400 Ohms.
But you losse even more bass precision, and the quality of the treble is now bad - the treble does not come anymore from the source which produces it - it comes in front of the source.
Imagine a flute - the attack is now located in front of the instrument - not a good thing.
So all the rendring in the deepness of the spectrum - from front to back is now destroyed - but it sounds more open and you get more treble - you compansate a bas tonearm matching with electrical termination, a thing which never will have succes.
Because a MC cart is a feather mass system - you HAVE TO GET THE RIGHT MASS (arm) against the feather (compliance).
You cannot compensate a mechanical mismatch with an electrical mismatch....
Some claim - use even 1Kohm - the things get more worse than I can describe here.

So - now, we are talking......

The sometimes bad reputation regarding Koetsu comes only from using arms, made in the 80ties and 90ties with carts in mind, as MM carts (Shure V15) VdH, Benz and so on....

If you use the correct equipment, than you get something very special - something you won´t find exactly that way one again.
A Koetsu can sound like heaven...it has something, I would call soul and there is flesh on the bones, and the midtones are amazing, the treble is clear, and natural and you can touch it,
The ambiance rendering is also in a class of it´s own.

Coming to the SUT now.

A Koetsu has 5 Ohm inner impedance.
We let the platinum versions out of the game for a moment....

And the Koetsu puts out something about 0,4mV - maybe a little bit more ( not the platin magnet version - I know).


The original vintage Koetsu SUT used Triad capsules - they were very, very good.
The original SUT had a fixed 5 Ohm position - and the whole thing sounded amazing - they are extremely rare today - and you cannot compare them to what is available today from Koetsu - the "new" SUT sounds dull and liveless....so forget that!

A cotter - and there is not one cotter - so read the technical specs - a cotter with a matching 5 ohm position is an amazing match - truly heaven!

If you use a SPU compatible SUT the Koetsu gets too much damping - such a SUT has a 2 or 3 ohm tap (position) - so it is a little bit too much.

Such a 5 Ohm tab SUT is also perfectly usable for Lyra carts, Zyx (low output), Ortofon (because today only the Meister Silver and the A95 have really low impedance - the Synergy is another story).
So a 5 Ohm tab SUT is a good investment.
Carts like Meister Silver and A95, SHindo SPU, Ikeda, My Sonic Lab, Air Tight and so on - means really low impedance carts needs a lower figure - the need a 2-3ohm tab.

A Kondo IO needs even a 1 Ohm tab - so another story.....

Hope that helps....

But keep in mind - everything starts with a proper compatible arm....
And I forgot - such a low compliance cart need also a high torque table - so no Oracle, Linn and so on....
A heavy table, like a Micro Seiki 1500 or even better 5000, a Platineis a great match.
A direct driven moded Technics SP10 also.
And idler wheels are what Sugano San used to design the cart - so a modded Garrard 301 or 401, a Commonwealth from Australia ( great table), a EMT, Thorens TD124 all are compatible.
Newer Designs with high torque is for example a Bauer DPS - in USA distributed by Ayre.


All the best

Ekki

Originally Posted by querstrommotor (Post 756439)

... PS - hope the pictures will show up.....

Originally Posted by John49 (Post 756447)

They do not show up on my iPad. Anyone else have this problem?

Originally Posted by querstrommotor (Post 756431)

@ Chubba
there was something like your SUT available when Cotter was still in business. But it is not what the blue SUTs were - your device comes with loading options, the plain Cotter SUT does not - you could choose between different turn ratios - these Cotter SUTs are very, very good.

@bgupton
Thie Ikeda is not as heavy as a FR66S was - just the first series Ikeda 12" 407 had the steel tube - later they changed that - today they changed some things on that classic again.

The Ikeda is never the less a good arm - not the same level as a fully restored silver wired FR66S with B60 - but a good arm.
The drive is amazing with a Koetsu - Idler Wheel drives, like your Garrard 301 is one of the tickets to get a tight bass out of any Koetsu.
If you own a stone body - congrats - that´s a fantastic cart.

Try to gt a low capacitance phono cable - as lower as better for the Ikeda and a proper heavy headshell.
The capacitance of the phono cable is very important - more so, if you use a SUT - because capacitance is multiplied with the turn ratio of the SUT.
As lower the capacitance as less HF stress will your RIAA / SUT system receive - as less grain you will have.

The whole run from the cart clips to the RCA connectors count.
A good idea is, if you do DIY stuff, to give the Ikeda a single run - nit the Tiffany amature....
One of the bst RCA connectors in this specific area are the Eiachmann Tellur Plugs...they do not look like real high end stuff - nothing to shock your girlfriend - but they are very, vry good - low mass, lo capacitance.
The same gos for the cheap looking Switchcraft RCA plugs, Shindo uses - looks also cheap - but it isn´t cheap - it is a very sophisticated technical approach behind it.
All the heavy brass RCA connectors are crap at the end of an arm-cable - as are 95% of all the high end connectors....

Dave SUT´s ar in a class of it´s own, as the whole guy is in a class of it´s own - you can hardly spent your money wiser!!!!!!

It is one of the very seldom masters of SUT design today - absolutely stunning!!!!!!

That sounds lik a nice front end....
Garrard 301 hopefully in a very well thought out plinth and fully restored, Ikeda 407 - a good arm-cable, a stone body Koetsu and a SUT from Dave....that is a classic example of things done right!!!!
Congratulations.....and much fun listening to great music!

Greetings Ekki