New Salon 2's not sounding right: Help!
 

(OK, moved this over from the Speakers at 30k thread. Below are my posts on the subject to date)

#1) So I did it. I took the big plunge and made a huge leap into the higher end, and a huge leap of faith. I got a used pair of Salon 2s for a great price. Powered by Sunfire 200wpc amp (doubles into 4 and 2 ohms, so power is there), Sunfire TGP5 Pre/Pro, Oppo BDP95 as source. Yes, my electronics are woefully underwhelming next to these, and need to be upgraded next.
So how are the Salon 2s? Well, I'm not sure. Incredible, outstanding top to bottom resolution, like hearing some music for the first time. Pristine highs. Very good imaging without even having played much with positioning. But...mids are a little thin, male voices thin, bass almost non-existent on some music, just OK on most. Not at all what I expected. Room is not huge at 15x22x7. Basement on slab. Speakers out 42" into room. Listening couch about 9-10 ft from speakers (13.5-14.5ft from front wall). Anybody have any idea where my mids and bass are hiding?

#2) I need to do something as my wife just told me she hates them, lol! I am limited in time, but I will try to play with placement. I cannot bring them out farther then the 42" they are at now, so maybe I will push them back and see if this changes things. Maybe a little front wall reinforcement will give me more mid/bass. I have limited funds right now, so I can make only one near term upgrade for around 3-4k (used price). What would you all recommend? Go with better amp first? Was thinking Mac 302 or 352 to get both more power and more warmth. I have more resolution than I need frankly, so happy to trade some off for warmer, more lush sound. I am coming off B&W N803 with JL F112 sub, and had auditioned various B&W 802Ds many times as i thought that would be my next speaker until I got this opportunity. I like the "BBC hump" in the B&Ws, and I also liked SF Elipsa sound. My favorite all time sound was Maggie 3.6 with $25k worth of ARC electronics, but maggies need to come out much farther into room than I can accomodate. I like a "they are in the room", very present forward sound with full mid/bass. Hope I can get the Salons to where I like them.

#3) Thanks again everyone for the replies. Here's where I am (some improvement but still problematic):

Checked polarity and all seems to be in order (at least the wires seem to be going to the right place). I was kind of hoping it would be this simple, but it is not.

I did two things that did seem to improve the bass output: moved them back to within a foot of the front wall, and, because the Sunfires all have this option, went from the current taps (tube like output) to the voltage taps (ss like output). Definitely got more bass, but still not close to energizing the room, and very recording dependent. The change from current to voltage did rob me of a lot of soundstage depth and some decay, but liveable.

As I played more music, one thing did become apparent, some (maybe most) well recorded Jazz CDs sound great, and the speakers finally sound like around 80-90% of what they should. Most older or average quality CD recordings sound bass-less and thin on voices and midrange, some more, some less. Example:

Wynton Marsalis: The Magic Hour - sounds absolutely superb. Diane Reeves voice is liquid beauty. What I expected from these speakers.

Fourplay: Between the Sheets - clearly was mixed with enhanced bass, and sounds excellent.

Yes: Yesstory - Not so good. Why is Chris Squires bass and Rick Wakeman's synth on Close to the Edge so weak (it should be deep and strong), and why is Jon Andersons voice recessed as if he's 10-20 ft behind the rest of the band?

David Sanborn: Close-Up - Some parts of the band sound very good, but Sanborn's sax sounds relatively thin and recessed (like Jon Andersons voice).

I will keep experimenting, but please tell me (all you current Salon 2 owners) that this is not a case where only good recordings will sound good on the Salon 2. They can't be this unforgiving. Do your average recordings sound good (especially re: voices, midbass and bass)?

Truly appreciate the help. This is a bit frustrating.:sigh:

jeffkad, sounds like you are making progress. How far apart are your speakers? How far away is your listening position? What is the size of your room? Are your speakers on the short wall or the long wall?

Room is 15'x22'x7'. Basement on slab, drop ceiling. Speaker front plane now 30" from front wall. Speakers now 7.5 ft apart. Listening couch about 11 ft from speakers (13.5-14ft from front wall). Speakers on short wall.

BTW, chessman, thanks for the encouragement and fact that you've been through this. Appreciate it.

Just for grins, move your listening position to about 8 feet (i.e., equilateral triangle) and see if the bass appears. My room is a basement, concrete floor with a carpet over it, and 16 x 24 x 7. The closer to the center of the room the listening position is, the more problems you will have with standing waves. I had to heavily bass trap the room to tame the standing waves.

keffkad,
Let me show you when I moved Salon2 around the room to take measurement.
Notice the one that says " pi wi's room" , at that position, all bass below 50Hz was sinking, also notice " pi wi's long wall ", that was after I change room orientation, I got bass output well down to 25Hz.
For the graph from XTZ, you will see that, pls refer to file name, the one that I put speakers really close to rear wall made sever dip and peak.. Also you will notice that
moving speakers back and forth is not really helping on the shape of frequency response, we can only reduce the peak/null, but the shape is still the same, it's a room mode. But as I can tell you that the farther away from back wall, the less severe room modes.
So you have lived if JL sub before, is it possible that you get used to hearing with that powerful subs ? If you lived with sub that is set at high level for some times, it's sure that any plain speakers will make you miss that bass. And Salon2 is never lack of
bass.. never. I got much better kick from the bass when I change amp from ML 436 to Moon W7M, however.

here is the link to pictures of my measurement, also read the review from German magazine. it need great care of amplification and room acoustic ! If proved unsuccessful, Try a Sophia 3, I own them too, easier load and have bass that make music fun too.

https://www.yousendit.com/download/M...MGM1R1A0WjhUQw

TOGA

Jeffkad,

Glad the sound is improving with your placement changes. Also, you are getting good advice from Randy and Toga.

You mention concrete flooring in the room, is it covered with a carpet?

A couple of other comments, the Salons (along with other high quality transducers) are pretty darn accurate. Meaning, a bad or poor quality recording trough the Salons will sound like it is - lousy.

Lastly, amplification is very critical for the Salons. They need tons of good quality power. The difference will be dramatic. Do you have friends or a dealer locally willing to let you tryout a more powerful amp?

Don't give up! These speakers are terrific performers.

Mike

Thanks all.

So are you guys saying that this may be all room mode/standing wave related, and some room treatments will bring back the bass? How do i know what to do and where to put the traps? Is there anyone on LI that offers this service?

I will try the equilateral triangle, but i did previously walk around the room and couldnt find the bass anywhere.

TOGA, thanks for the attachment but I cant open it due to corp filters. As for the JL sub setup before, I actually kept it turned down low. I am not a bass head by any means, and if I detected heavy bass or even pressurization, I turned it down. No, this is simply a matter of missing mids and bass.

Ritmo, the floor is slab with vinyl tile, but the 8x10 area in front of the speakers is covered by a thin area rug.

I am definitely going to try to get a dealer or some kind nearby audiophile (anyone on LI? :sos:) to let me try a better amp to see what happens.

Maybe it's as Ritmo said, the Salon 2 just doesnt like average recordings, but i just cant believe that. I'll bet this is a fixable situation. Salon 2 owners out there, are you only listening to very good recordings? Do average recordings sound like what I've described: thin voices, thin mids and no low bass?

Did you contact the dealer you bought them from for help??

Generally you would place bass traps on the front wall and corners.

I'm also from LI and may be able to help, but won't be around till next weekend or the weekend after.

jeffkad
Room and speaker interaction can be very tricky. Here are a few additional suggestions. ---Make sure that the distance from the speaker to the back wall is not equal to the distance from the speaker to the side wall.
- Take a very light chair and place it in your seating position, then move it back and forth a few inches at a time to see if the bass locks in.
-Wall treatments made a big difference in my room and I think improved the looks as well as the sound. You can put just about any picture even your own on the treatments.
-borrow a different amp from a dealer or friend. All watts are not created equal. You have purchased fine gear and you may need to upgrade your power at some point. I needed to.

JIm