The EMT SFL is pretty much an end game cartridge. You can do different but not necessarily better. Excellent cartridge. It will have a lot more detail with the super fine line stylus profile vs. a spherical Denon 103. Different creatures really. Also, the EMT puts out about 5x more gain than the Denon.

I'm not sure I understand how the phono stage gain is dependent on the cartridge used?
I always thought its a fixed value, determined by the design of a given phono stage.
Especially when one talks about step-up ratio of the built in SUT?
Many manufacturers provide specs for the gain values, without any further explanation of the value being dependent on the cartridge used

Thank you for the calculation- it appears to be 1:15 for VR (3 mV/ 0.2 mV)

I had a denon 103 with the standard A23 SUT. It was great. I now have the EMT TSD 15 sfl with the A23 T2 homage SUT and it is vastly superior to the denon combo.

I'd take some time to research SUTs further because honestly it isn't a simple topic suitable to forum chit-chat. My feeling is that you don't quite fully appreciate everything involved with cartridge (output, impedance), step-up transformers, and phono input stages. Also, please consult with your dealer as they know what set-ups work well together. Jonathan is right about a systems approach with regard to vinyl playback - you absolutely need to have your phono stage, cartridge, and SUT integrated as a solution.

The cartridge motor puts out voltage at a particular record speed, and the amplifier has a certain sensitivity. All of the gain stages between the cartridge and amplifier are CRITICAL. Tube input stages are more tolerant than SS input stages - they overdrive more gracefully. So, in short, the MM stage provides additional gain versus a line stage, and the MC stage provides additional gain to the MM stage, as well as providing critical loading values which also depend on BOTH the input impedance of your pre-amp as well as the output impedance of the SPECIFIC cartridge. As stated before an SUT used for an MC gain stage needs to be specifically suited to both the required gain (step-up ratio) and loading. For a "simple" device, SUT design is a dark art, very advanced electromagnetic science, and challenging to manufacturer properly.

And your comment about what many manufacturers do has absolutely no bearing on the right or best way to do something. Shindo is not like many manufacturers. The best phono stages are either designed as an integrated solution, or are adjustable. For example here is the Pass XP-25:

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/...lt2__large.jpg

Now it's pretty clear... I don't have a good understanding of the issue.
AS a brief summary- does it mean, that a particular phono stage will produce different gain when paired with different cartridges?

Not sure if this answers exactly what you are asking but most MC cartridges put out between 0.2 and 1.0 mV, while most MM stages have a sensitivity of about 5mV. I think your Shindo was 3mV. The SUT needs to take the cartridge output up to about that of the pre-amp MM sensitivity, while at the same time providing the correct loading for the cartridge. There is some wiggle room here, but a Denon 103 likes ~100 ohms where a traditional SPU likes something much lower, and the EMT likes something higher. Hope that helps. I have my Denon 103R loaded for 100ohms and 16x step-up. Once I come back around to upgrade my turntable to a Garrard it will definitely be with an EMT SFL form Matt at Pitch Perfect! =)

Regarding to the SUT/cartridge matching, I like to go a little more into details.....
We always read here, that a A23 Denon SUT is not such a good match to an EMT cart, than the A23 T2, so why is that the case....???
The original EMT step up transformers in the EMT 930 ans 927 turntables had a step up ratio if 1:7, the reason for that is that an EMT TSD15 has a nominal output of 1mV.
The internal impedance is something around 22 Ohm.
Now let´s see the technical data on the DL 103 - a standard DL 103 - not the R version has a internal impedance of 40 Ohm and the output is around 0,25mV - that is 4(!!!!!) times lower than the EMT has.
Let´s put away the impedance difference for a moment and think about the output voltage of both carts.
If we use a standard DL 103 SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, than we get something around 24-26db gain with such a SUT - because it has a much higher turn ratio, than the original vintage EMT transformer designed to match the cart.

Lets get a step further and have a look on the gain stages of a given RIAA stage.
Lets say our RIAA has a total amount of gain in MM mode of 40db, which is quite usual for a lot of tube RIAA stages - than we get with the Denon compatible SUT a total amount of gain of around 26db+40db from the MM tube RIAA stage - makes together 66db gain, which is a good match for a classic DL 103 with 0,25mV output.
Now lets calculate that with the EMT TSD15.
As the TSD15 has a lower internal impedance in comparison to the Denon (22Ohm instead of 40Ohm) we will get a bit less gain from our DL103 compatible SUT - it will be around 22db - together with the 40db gain of our given tube MM RIAA stage we will have
something like 62db total gain with the EMT.
Now back to the technical specs of the EMT - this cart has 1mV output!!!!
It never needs 62db total amount of phono gain.

Now lets go even one more step further into this - the input of our RIAA stages gets the output of the cart - "amplified" with the turn ratio of a given SUT.
In our example the input of our tube RIAA gets a way too hot signal from the team EMT/DL103compatible SUT.
That will cause compression - and it will cause a type of swinging, because the loudest signal is not the music cut in our records, much louder are the clicks and pops.
So our RIAA will be able to handle a record with low cutted amplitude - in a case where we have a orchestra tutti, it will compress, and in the case of a click or popp wie will have much more problems....

That little example shows why a DL 103 SUT is NOT a good idea to use with an EMT cart.
And yes - there might be RIAA stages with a max. amount of 30db gain - were such a SUT might work - but absolutely not with a RIAA with 40 or more db of gain!

Lets have a look at the impedance side of our example.
The DL 103 has nearly twice as much internal resistance - 40 Ohm - the EMT has 22.
If we connect a DL 103 to a compatible SUT - like the A23 Denon SUT, the cart sees if our RIAA has a input impedance of 47Kohm (standard) 100 Ohm.
That is a good SUT termination of the DL 103 - the EMT works not optimal with these data....

That is the reason why EMT did not use a 1:10 SUT in the past - and that is also the reason, why a Hommage T2 works better - much better with an EMT than the DL 103 SUT.

As you can see it is no voodoo it is plain physics.

Lets come to the low impedance side of a Hommage T1 or a Shindo internal SUT.
As we hopefully know - the original Ortofon SPU was a cart, which had a internal resistance of 3Ohm or lower.
Today Ortofon changed that - nearly on every SPU.
Today we have only the Meister Silver, which has around 3 Ohm internal resistance (the older version had 2 Ohm).
A SPU Classic has 6 Ohm as it is also the case with the SPU Royal.
You might now suggest the Synergy SPU´s - but thy are a different thing - they have internal resistance which would match the old generation of SPU´s, they have 2 or 3 Ohm resistance - but, and that is a big BUT - they have nearly double as much output as a classic original vintage SPU had....!!!!
They used a technique we find in MC´s as My Sonic Lab and Air Tight PC1 or PC1 Supreme - all Matsudaira San made carts, who uses a very special core to achieve low impedance and high output for that given impedance - so everything else than the original SPU stuff.
As I understand, Shindo made his phono sections with a classic original SPU in mind - so non of the modern SPU carts will match his design, the only one today would be the Meister Silver SPU or his own Shindo SPU.

If we go again a little bit deeper - the Shindo Mersault arm is made with a SPU A geometry in mind - if you look today at the Ortofon portfolio, you will recognize, there is no single SPU A available anymore....
And as Jonathan mentioned, also the shell material changed in the past.
No backelite anymore - they used aluminium, and today a sort of resin - so also that detail ist different today....

That means, if you have a Shindo arm, there is today only the Shindo SPU, which is a true classic SPU A with a backelite shell.
If you use a SPU on a Ligno Lab Garrard together with a tonearm of your choice - lets say the EMT arm, than you have a chance to order that arm with a G shell geometry and so you are able to use a Meister Silver SPU together with that arm - and have a combination, which will work properly with the internal SUT of a Shindo phono section.

Lets talk about a Koetsu now - a Koetsu has a internal resistance of 5 Ohm - that is also the case with a wide range of carts today - nearly all Lyra carts have around 5 Ohm (not the Delos!!!!), Dynavector Te Kaitora and so on.
A Koetsu needs a different turn ratio - not as high, as a true classic SPU - it works best with SUT´s which have around 1:20 - the internal SUT´s in the Shindo phono sections have a much higher turn ratio - which is made - you guess it.....for a classic - original - SPU!!!!!

There are today some SUT´s on the market, which fit the bill of a Kotsu - that is the Koetsu SUT itself (not the best....and way tooo expensive for what it is), a Lyra Erodion (much better than the Koetsu SUT), Bob´s Devices, Silver Core (very good) and so on....

As you can see, there are a lot of things to keep in mind - if the result should work the best way.

If we come back to Shindo - Ken had always the complete chain in mind - not just one piece of gear - it is a whole system!
And the gear has a historic approach!

The historic approach is in todays world in most if the cases the deal breaker - because today most of the high end world stepped miles away from what we had in the 50ties and 60ties.
Today we have nearly no thin paper loudspeakers anymore, as you could see in my writing above - a Ortofon SPU today is something completely different, than 20 years ago, cables are made today, which damp HF - a problem which was non existent in classic tub technology.
Today our modern high tech HiFi gear has switching power supplies and a lot of digital HF - so these modern cables makes sometimes sense with what the industry has to offer today - but it is totally wrong with classic tube stuff!!!!
Power cables are heavy shielded today because of all the HF dirt the gar produces itself ( a media server is nothing else, than a computer!) - in a classic tube system, we do not need that - and it is again not compatible with such equipment.
A classic made tube amp sounds best with unshielded power cables - as Shindo uses them - it looks strange in comparison to a NBS cable (looks impressive - true high end....????) - which is fine with a Mark Levinson but not with a Shindo, Air Tight, vintage Marantz 8B oder 9.....

And finally all this true classic tube gear has input and output impedance values, which are long forgotten today.
In classic tube preamps, you have mainly 3 techniques to lower the output-impednace to around 600 Ohm or lower, that is an output transformer, a SRPP output stage or a kathode follower.
Normally those 600 Ohm (it was a standard in the past - what a great time that was....!) output impedance of such a classic tube pre worked with a power amp which had 10 Kohm input impedance - a perfect match!
Now go ahead, and look to the modern power amps - and their input impedance - and you will recognize, that we are far away from that standard, we had in the past.
Another problem is - that a classic tube line stage has way tooo much gain for what a modern amp needs - today we have digital gear with output voltage of 2V and much, much more....a DCS Paganini could generate 6V!!!!!
So a preamp is today a voltage damping device!
In those years in the 60ties we needed gain - because our main source was a record player - with a SPU cart, which had after all gain stages of our phono section something around 1V - and less!!!!

I could go on and on - what I wrote are just a view examples - just a view.......


Hope that enlightens a little bit, why Jonathan is telling us to keep on track with gear, which is compatible to what Shindo produces.
To built up a Shindo system is a totally different kind of thing as nearly all the other stuff we put together today - and to be honest - how often does a modern system, we put together with different brands and technology get the synergy a complete Sindo setting has to offer....together with some of the other products, like for example EMT and A23 which is compatible to the classic way Shindo constructed his gear.

Have a nice day and hopefully some better understanding of the things behind the curtain - and sorry for my english....

Ekki

It does and it doesn't
Let me rephrase it.
Let's assume a particular phono stage is specified to have 60 dB of gain through MC stage
The way I understand you, with cartridge X it will have 60 dB and with Cartridge Y it can possibly produce 65dB ?

No, it just adds that much gain to whatever the cartridge is putting out. So, you need more gain with a low output cartridge and less gain with a high output cartridge.

Allow me to express a debt of gratitude to querstrommotor/Ekki above for superb

and detailed Précis of the SUT/MC matching and Mixing

Excellent writing thank you

DesW

Ekki,
Thank you so much, that was outstanding.
Exactly what I needed to understand Shindo approach.
Makes perfect sense, explaining my own observations using internal Shindo MC stage.
One thing though,
You stated, that internal Shindo SUT has much higher, than 20 step-up ratio,
But dividing Shindo VR MM stage sensitivity (3mV) by MC stage sensitivity (0.2 mV), we come up with 1:15 step-up ratio?
That is a crucial issue for me personally, as internal VR SUT has too much gain for my Koetsu Urushi cart and my 108 dB speakers, and I'm trying to determine which of the 3rd party SUTs will have lower step-up ratio, than VR SUT, and sound better in the process.
Bob Sattin of Bob's devices thinks his Sky SUT with 1:10 ratio should be a good match.
I have written to Keith of Auditorium 23, asking the same question, but he hasn't answered yet.
Thank you for mentioning a few SUT brands, that you consider to be a good match for Koetsu.
I'm not familiar with Silver Core, what is it?
Thank you again

That's what I thought

maril 555

I think you calculate the turn ratio in a wrong way - because you calculate with the active parts - means total sensivity and gain - that is not what I ment.
What you would need is the spec sheet of the internal SUT!
With a 1:15 it is impossible to get a proper match with a classic (means really low impedance SPU - like the Shindo SPU) SPU - such a cart should see something around 60 Ohm from the SUT, which is not possible with a 1:15 SUT.

In your whole calculation of gain, you have to put also the line gain, the gain of the amplifier and it´s sensivity and the sensivity of your speakers.
And at this point you know now why a Shindo amplifier has input sensivity pots!!!

A Shindo line stage, as also other classic line stages (Marantz 7 for example) is able to give much more than 8V output gain with a given 1V input.
That is very much different from what modern line stages can do - because in the modern world, we have CD Players with 2V minimum output - sometimes much more - see my older mail.
But there are also classic MC carts on the market, like a Kondo IO, Ikeda and others, which have much less output than a vintage SPU - in the case of a Kondo extremely less.
If you want to use such a very low output cart (not compatible with a SPU SUT - most of them need 1 Ohm SUT´s) - than you are more than happy, that you can ad to the RIAA gain also line gain - today an active line stage is not amplifying something - these stages damp and go for impedance matching issues between sources and the amplifier.
In the older days it was not seldom the case that a MC cart has very low output - and so a line stage has to amplify.
There is a position on your volumen pot, where the line stage makes nothing - no damping and no amplification - right from that point the line stage starts to amplify left of it it´s job is damping.
As you know, your pot has also a optimal section, in which it delivers the best stereo performance - means balance between right and left - or balancing errors.
This optimal range is never at the Beginning of the pot´range - it is somwhere in the midle - and there is also the point, where damping and amplification start to blend one into another.
I do not know where exactly this point is with your Shindo pre, but you can measure that.
For such a technical thing you need a very sensitive Volt meter - best thing is one vintage thing with a needle - not the cheap digital stuff from the radio shop....
You use your laptop with a sine wave generator - turn up the volume on the computer - till you measure at the cinch connector (an adapter is needed) coming from the computer the output power - lets say your MAC book is able to generate 1V output.
Than you plug the laptop in the Shindo line stage - use CD in.
Than you measure with a cable connected to the output of your line stage - it is easier to do it with a cable connected to the output plug, as using the plug directly.
You turn the volume up an look what is going on....
If there is less than 1V at the output of the line stage - than it is damping the input signal - which is as you remember 1V from the computer.
THan there will be a point, where the output is exactly 1V - that is, were the line stages makes no damping and no additional gain - after that position it comes the section at the pot, were the line stage is adding gain - means really amplify something.
Now you know were the point exactly is at your volume pot range.

Normally it will be right of the 12 o´clock position.

Most people are afraid to use the input volume pots which your Shindo amp comes with.
That is stupid - they think - o my good a potentiometer in the signalflow......ohhhhhhh!!!
Some very intelligent guys take them out of the signal path - and call it tuning - I call it bullshit!
Because only with these pot´s in place you have the big advantage to adjust the input sensivity of your amplifier - and get your line stage to the right level of performance and the gain in the whole system right.

At the end Jonathan and Matt give you a whole system which will work as it was ment by Ken Shindo - it is that simple and customers who do that do not have to deal with all this issues.
If you use different carts, SUTs, match a Shindo pre with a different amp or the other way arround - use not recommended speakers - than the user has to deal with a lot of technical things to get it right - and often there is no way to get it right - a class A triode amp will never perform with a typical modern multi way speaker.

I do not say that in terms of a cart it is not possible - but you have to dig deeper, than just connecting and adjusting a cart.
You have to deal with a cart compatible SUT, with gain in your system and so on.

And there are much more things in the technical side of putting a system together.
For example an amplifier with no neg feedback will have a greater inputsensivity than a ultra linear push pull amp with neg feedback loops.
That is important in the case to match such an amp to a certain pre - the gain staging through a given system is everything than simple.
But keep in mind - in a certain range you can handle that through your input potentiometers which your amp comes with.

Carts which will work fantastic are:
SPU Meister Silver (if the tonearm feature the G Shell geometry)
Shindo SPU (if the tonearm feature A Shell geometry)

EMT TSD15
EMT´s new TSD 75 if you want to use a TSD mc with a 1/4" Headshellsystem - it is than compatible with a wide range of tonearms
EMT JSD range - that is maybe the pinnacle of the EMT sound - very, very good sound!

Denon DL 103 - and if you do yourself a favor - buy the Ligno Lab DL 103 shell for it - do not lough - it is in this case a giant killer!

For all the above mentioned carts, there is a matching transformer, which is compatible to Shindo gear in the A23 portfolio - or the SUT which Shindo puts into his RIAA sections.

You have the Hommage T1 for SPU style MC, the Hommage T2 for EMT and the DL 103 SUT for an DL 103 - which will also work with the Hommage T2.

If you want to use a Lyra or Koetsu - than you will have to buy a 1:10 Silvercore or a Lyra Erodion, a self made Jensen or something like that.

And the question will be - is a Koetsu a god match with a Shindo system....????
I would say no!
I like Koetsu and have two of them in use - but not with such a Shindo system!

Koetsu - the wood bodies - have a loose bass, and a polite treble, they are also not very dynamic - as a EMT JSD5 for example - the stone bodies are a different kind oft thing - but they are extremely expensive!
And a Shindo system needs nothing of what a Koetsu is famous for.....so.....

With a Lyra it is maybe a different kind of thing - but a Lyra is very arm sensitive - and it will not perform very good with the classic arms, we will find in the Shindo world.
A Lyra performs fantastic with a Frank Schroeder arm, a Graham Phantom, a Spiral Groove for example - but not with a SME 3012, Ortofon 309i or EMT tonearm.

These classic studio tonearms are made for - yes, you already know it - the classic studio carts....also here comes together, what fits together.

So it is not possible to have a classic SPU and a Lyra Etna in the same tonearm - the eff mass which both carts like to see are sooooo different.
Both need different SUT and so on....

Hope that helps

greetings Ekki

Ekki,
Thanks again.
Couple of things- I have calculated internal SUT ratio that way, following Junker's advise from a few posts above.
I do get your point about Koetsu, but I have to report, that my personal experience is somewhat slightly different.
With my other preamp, Tron Syren II Ultimate, I had Lyra Kleos (my tonearm is Graham Phantom Supreme II), and switching to Koetsu Urushi in the same arm, I didn't feel I was loosing much, if any, of the resolution and HF, compared to Lyra.
I always had an feeling, that Lyra slightly exaggerates upper midrange and treble, at least in my system.
So, Koetsu sounds more "organic" in this particular case.
I didn't have Lyra by the time I got Shindo, so I cannot tell, but Koetsu sounds fairly similar through Shindo, as through Tron Syren, and I kind of like it.
With regards to the line stage gain:
Shindo definitely provides way more gain, than I need.
The volume control is at 7-8 position, at best (the very beginning of the available range), certainly is not optimal.
To deal with that issue, I could conceivably lower an input sensitivity of my Lamm ML2 power amps (I have done it before, with the personal blessing from Vladimir Lamm himself).
The more logical (Shindo) way would be Shindo power amp, but then Jonathan advised against doing it, since "they don't pair well" with my Avantgarde speakers)
The other question: you suggested EMT JD 5, JD 6 carts, but they have 1.0 mV output, and my 0.5 mV Koetsu is already too much???
And then Graham Phantom might not be the best match with EMT cart,(EMT likes high mass arms?).
That leaves with with three choices:
1. Explore different SUTs, trying to match Koetsu and lower my amps input sensitivity to optimize line stage performance.
2. Get rid of Vosne Romanee
3. Go with the whole Shindo system approach.

I would consider doing an in-home audition with the Shindo Cortese (8wpc) and then decide what to do.

Reading the depth of Knowledge and writing of Ekki is indeed enlightening again--Kudos indeed

Just to add re the Koetsus--I've owned 4of them and used with varies SUT's /Active steps including Koetsu's own,

Denon/FR/Klyne--the only one that allowed the K's to shine especially the stone bodied ones was the Cotter 2L

pictured--it was designed to bring the best out of the K's.

There are couple for sale on the net at present--thats the one I'd go for

I agree the Auditoriums are great SUTS

--I've owned one--for the specific carts intended

The Koestus are beasts of the different flavour however and need careful co-joining

Good Luck

DesW

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/team201/2L.jpg

Do you, by any chance, remember step up ratio of Cotter MK2 L?

No I was not interested in that fact--I bought mine from Mitch Direct at his NY Factory after an entertaining tour--he stated the 2L was produced specific for the Koetsu cart --good enough for me

The combination was sublime

More ears less measurements -is my motto--

YVMV

DesW

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/m...tter/spt.shtml

Hi guys, hi meril 555

again, it is not correct to calculate a SUT´s ratio with just not knowing how much of the complete gain structure of a given preamp is done with the SUT, and which of that gain is made by the active stages.
And the calculation method you described it is exactly that, what brings you to a complete wrong suggestion - and it did not get more correct, if we repeat it one more time - sorry ;-)))
You need to have the specs of the SUT!!!!!

You have to read my post again - as I mentioned the EMT JSD - I did that with a compatible SUT in mind.
The Output of a MC cart is one story, the turn ratio of a SUT designed for the EMT another - please read my first post again - there you will find, that EMT Carts need a 1:7 ratio - which will be less gain put into the actives stage of the RIAA than a Koetsu used with the internal MC section of the fantastic VR pre...

That example shows you that a cart, which has double the output of a Koetsu, can give less total output if you use a EMT compatible SUT with a turn ratio of 1:7, than a Koetsu with 0.5mV driven with a complete incompatible SUT - and till now unknown turn ratio (internal SUT of Shindo VR) - which was made for a Shindo SPU or real classic SPU´s with 2 or 3 Ohm internal impedance.


Now I come to the most strange - sorry for that - part of your last mail.
You really tell us, that a Koetsu Urushi and a Lyra Kleos have nearly the same resolution - that is something I can not understand.....
Which brings me to some more things....
The Graham is perfect for the Lyra Kleos - and it is everything else than perfect for the Koetsu!
A Koetsu needs a much more heavier arm than a Lyra.
The EMT has a compliance of 15 cu, a Lyra has 12 - that means the EMT has a higher compliance as a Lyra - which will work superb in your Graham - but a Koetsu does not!

To handle a Koetsu is nearly as special as handling a SPU.
If you ask me, a Koetsu needs a Fidelity Research FR64 or FR66 arm and - thank you Des W - a Cotter SUT - but keep in mind - there are different types of cotter SUT´s not all are made to work with a Koetsu.
Last but not least a Koetsu needs a player system with a lot of torque - like a Garrard 301 - or a lot of mass like a Micro Seiki 5000 or 1500.
The thing is - the Koetsu is a very classic and old design - they changed in the past some things, to be more compatible to what is available today - but none of the Koetsu dealers tells you the truth - how a Koetsu should be used, because the gear you need to let a Koetsu shine is not very common!
I see Koetsu carts in SME V or Linn arms - that will never work as it could be....

Coming back to Lyra versus Koetsu - both compared working under optimal conditions, you would never say, that they have identical resolution - and also not the same gestalt - I speak only of the wood Koetsu - not the stone ones!!!!
The Lyra has not a bump in the presence - the Koetsu has a dip there.
The Lyra is very neutral - the only thing it will show is a HF rise from 17Khz up.
The dynamic abilities of a Lyra are completely different to a Koetsu - and I do not say - one is better than the other - what I say is - that they both are on completely different sides of the spectrum.

It is like it is - we focus too much on single components - without thinking any further...
Some want a Koetsu - but do not think any further - that it will need a different arm, and a different sut - or it will not show it´s best performance on a linn.
Others wanted to have a Lyra - a cart which sends great energy into the arm - but they have a SME V oder IV in their systems - and the SME is very, very stiff (Armtube) it does not absorb the energy put into the arm, it reflects the energy - which means a Lyra sounds hard, aggressive and tot like it could sound in a Graham or Spiral Groove or Schröder arm.

To have that in mind, you can now understand a lot of sound descriptions at the web.
Lyra= cold, harsh, analytic, fast, dynamic....
Koetsu: slow, wooly bass, dark, lot of flow - great for vocals....

That is the typical description, you will find, letting you know - both carts, as described like above are used with wrong gear...!

Ad it is a little bit the same story with your complete system - Avantgarde - Lamm - Shindo - Koetsu .....

Why do you not try a Lamm RIAA stage together with a Lamm line stage - it would be something completely different, than the Shindo VR - but it is made to fit with Lamm amps???
It you want to go the Shindo way - than it is much more complicated - because a Shindo preamp is made for Shindo amps - they are made for high impedance speakers with great sensivity.
And the RIAA section of the VR is made with a classic original SPU in mind....
That SPU needs a different arm, than a Graham, and such an arm needs also a drive system, which is able to work with such an arm/cart combination.

You have fantastic components - but they give you at the moment not a good system - but you listen through a system not to single components.

So - you can try a Shindo amp as Junker said - but than you have in my opinion the wrong speakers - I agree completely with Jonathan - Avangarde is NOT a good match with Shindo!

@ Des W - thank you for your compliments - as I am an audio engineer (mixing / re recording engineer in film business ) I am used to dig a little bit deeper;-)))))
As I do also a lot of audio restauration work, especially vinyl - I am used to a lot of combination regarding drive systems, arms and carts ( I have here 13 different carts and 5 different arms, as also 5 different drive systems) - so what I try to write is not guessing - it is founded on a technical approach together with years of experience with vintage and modern technology.
My clients come from the record and film industry and also archives - If you do such work, it is most of the time the one and only restauration made to the material - so you have to be sure to get the most out of the material you have to work on. There will be no other instance to do it once again, better or in a different way.
As the material I work on, is a part of our culture (a lot of classic music) you feel a certain pressure on your shoulders to do it in the best possible way (which means to have a vinyl system, which brings most of the given information to a the digital world - I know it is a shame to make all the gerat analog recordings digital - but we live in a digital world - and it is maybe the only chance that the future generations can use it).

I use for the different jobs vintage and modern gear - and - very important - I always try to match the things in a compatible way!!!!!
I use drive systems like Platine, EMT, Commonwealth and Bauer DPS III, arms from EMT, Thomas Schick, Frank Schröder and Spiral Groove, and carts like SPU (vintage and new ones like Shindo SPU) DL 103, Lyra, Zyx, Dynavector, My Sonic Lab, EMT, Ikeda and the Tekeda Miyabi Standard - to name a few.
Preamps are used from Shindo, Air Tight, Klyne, Lamm and Nagra.
SUT from EMT, Neumann, Western Electric, Cotter, Hommage T1, Air Tight and a lot of custom wound SUT.

Over the years I learned that it is always the complete system which brings you the music - not one single component - a perfectly matched system of a lower price range can easily outperform a much more expensive system, which is not perfectly matched!!!!
The industry today leaves the customer in most of the cases alone - we have today nearly no standards in HiFi anymore - Preamps have different in and output impedance figures, which are only compatible to gear from the same company, carts and technical data is often hidden for the customer or is just half of the truth and so on....
Gear like Shindo is made with the idea in mind, people had in the past.
So you have preamps with classic impedance figures like the 600 Ohm standard from the past, amps which can handle that perfectly and also RIAA sections made for the classic carts of the time.
It is a completely different world of hifi, as we will find it most often today.
And that makes it not so easy to put single components of that special and wonderful world into the modern world.
If you leave the Shindo in it´s own world, than you will get more, much more out of the gear. That is a decision you have to make.
If you made it, than it means a lot of consequences - not much gear is out now, which is compatible with the world we had in the 50ties and 60ties - Shindo and also some other companies today bring you that sound again in todays world.
And before you think now - all the Shindo maniacs are all vintage freaks - that is just half of the truth.....
Listen to some vinyl from Mercury, DECCA and RCA Living Stereo - that was recorded in that particular time - and it is a sort of sound and aesthetic we lost over the years - so vintage does not always mean old or antique or outdated.
And that is the world of Shindo - it is a type of HiFi which takes the vintage approach to a new level - as it is written here and elsewhere maybe closer to the music, than a lot of modern systems can do - it is maybe also a matter of taste - because those systems put emotional impact over the last bit of resolution - because resolution deals more with our intellect - a wonderful tone, a big and saturated sound is something for our soul and heart.
And of course I simplify here - because it is much more complex than we can write down in a forum.....
Have a nice day

Ekki

Hey guys...here is an excellent primer on Moving Coil Cartridge Step-up Transformers:

Moving Coil Step Up Guide

Ekki,
Another outstanding post.
I wish I've read it long time ago.
I was kind of aware of bits and pieces of the info, you presented, but to compile it into such a cohesive picture, that's is something else entirely, and thank you again for that.
A few points:
You are obviously right about calculating step-up ratio (blame Junker for that)
I admit to making a mistake with regard to high output of EMT cart, shouldn't have, without taking appropriate SUT into a consideration.
Koetsu- Graham combo: I have to report, that I didn't come up with that decision entirely on my own. After reading multiple (less, than educated opinions), I thought it would be a good match.
After reading your post again, and giving it some serious thought, Since I really want to give Shindo a best shot possible, I devised a plan of action:
1. Get EMT JSD6 cart
Auditorium 23 Hommage SUT (T2 is the appropriate one for EMT?)
keep Graham Phantom Supreme II tone arm
That way, I should have tone arm, cartridge, SUT and Shindo VR preamp chain "in order".
Avantgarde- Lamm combo works very well,
so, the only questionable link will be Shindo- Lamm.

As an alternative, I have an easy access to Kuzma 4 Point arm (14 g. effective mass), and
12" Reed 3 P with Ebony arm tube- (19 g. effective mass).
Do you think any of these 2 would be a better match to EMT JSD6, than Graham?(they don't publish effective mass numbers)
And I really appreciate your time helping out.
I think, I'm not the only one here, benefiting from your outstanding mastery of the subject.

One more thing- about Lamm Line and phono stages.
I thought about it, but opted for one box solution in the end.
I could get their top line and phono at very attractive price, but it is still too much $$$, and 7 separate chassis to boot.

This is not true. The reflected impedance is going to be input impedance * 1/(step-up ratio)^2, which is then adjusted using a resistor on the secondary side of the transformer. Assuming 1:16 step-up ratio and a 100kOhm input impedance the natural impedance seen by the cartridge would be approximately 400ohm which is then reduced to somewhere under 100 ohms with the resistor. Shindo uses Lundahl amorphous core step-up transfos and even though they say they are all custom-wound I would bet money the ratio is 1:16 like in an LL1678 which would use 27,4 kOhm secondary parallel resistor to target 60 ohms at the cartridge, for example. The ratio could also be something like 1:20 as well but we are making assumptions based on a few basic specs.

Hi , OK I can read the dilemma you face my thoughts from what you have and are considering would be

Yes EMT + Hommage Excellent combo--

I use the TSD15s in the 70's -in Hamburg-I stripped them down sans casing -ha!--(only trouble the coils picked up

whiskers from the iron filings in the air!) Great Cart --tons of dynamics and attack --yes the Hommage SUT is the one

to get for that combo--I had a basic A23 and found it a tad soft but so smooth and pleasant.

Forget the Graham Arm with the Koetsu--if you go down that path--I agree with Ekki

I have friends with the Reed-- good arm but no firsthand experience myself.

I own both the Kuzma 4 Point Arm and the Shindo SPU so have experience with both

I'd definitely go for the Kuzma--terrific arm and sonics

Good listening,

DesW

So, it seems you agree on EMT JSD 6+ Kuzma 4 Point+ Auditorium 23 Hommage T2?
Now, we seems to be getting somewhere

Well from what I've used and heard myself (BIG EMT fanboi here!):thumbsup:-

-yes I would go for that

Don't forget the Long version EMT Banana Arm:banana: --also excellent

My personal pref is for the 4point --VTA on the fly and the superb Vernier

Azimuth adjustment--a well designed and priced Arm.

Apologies --back original topic

DesW

I looked up EMT JSD 6 specs again, and it seems, they recommend 15-35 g. effective mass arms.
Kuzma 4 Point is 14 g.
Graham is about the same and 12" Reed 3 P with Ebony wand is 19 g.?
I know, those are just numbers, that don't necessarily translate in better sonic results, but still- I don't want to make another expensive mistake

Ekki,
Could you chime in here, please?
I decided to go with EMT JSD 6/ Auditorium 23 Hommage T2,
so the decision I have to make now is about the arm:
My present 10" Graham Phantom Supreme II (unknown effective mass, likely in the 12-14 g. range)
Kuzma 4 Point- 14 g. effective mass
12" Reed 3P, Ebony wand- 19 g. effective mass
Thanks

Hi guys,

1. EMT JSD
The EMT JSD5 and 6 have a compliance of 15 - that is compatible with Graham and also Kutzma - I would think the Graham is the better arm of the two - but that is just me....
VTA and Azimuth are also easy to adjust.
The Graham has in my opinion the superior construction - but - as I said - it is just me.
The 15-35g on the EMT web site is a matter of having an arm and a headshellsystem - so stay cool - about 35g;-)))) - that is way toooo much for 15cu compliance....

You can measure the eff mass with a test record - with attached EMT and Graham it should be around 10hz - you can also use the vinyl engine calculator - that is pretty much a precise tool.
If you use 35g eff mass your f/res drops significantly to a figure, were you get trouble with resonances while walking or from the woofers of your system.

And yes - the Reed ist also a fine flexible arm...I would place this near the Graham....
You already have a wonderful arm for carts which are not too stiff - a Koetsu needs a heavy arm.


2. Hommage T2:
Get the torn ratio from your dealer - and than you can calculate - beside that, it is one of the best SUTs for an EMT right now (beneath custom SUTs).

3. The whole system:
Do not ask me if a Lamm amp can handle the high gain Shindo VR - so that you can get normal gain situation together with your Avantgarde - I doubt it.....
I have to look the specs and especially the input sensivity - how is VR with a line signal matching with your Lamm??? - Let´s say a CD player with 2V output gain??? - If that works than you can move on - of not, you have a compatibility problem between VR and Lamm.
You should also have a look to input and output impedances of am and pre.
Do not blame us ;-))) - if there is again too much gain....read trough all posts again - it is important, that you understand the whole system with all gain stages....


4. All in all....
It is in most of the cases the same story - people, who are interested in Shindo do not come out of a HiFi vacuum - they already have something at home, which was very expensive.
Than they read or hear a Shindo system - which is something else, than the conventional HiFi system.
Than the story begins - parts of Shindo are implemented in the system - people already have.
And that is the beginning of a long journey.
Some go the way to the end - and with that I do not mean - buy the most expensive Shindo components - a small system, with Aurige and Montille, some Altec Speakers a Ligno Lab Garrard a EMT Arm or a Ortofon 309i or SME 3012 (if in good shape with bronce knife upgrade), a SPU or EMT or DL 103 with Ligno Shell and that put on a good rack system (Box or Ligno Lab or self made) - and it will work as it is ment to be - means no stress no hassle no nothing - just fun to listen.
The other way is to stop half the way - and than it starts - no compatible speakers - no compatible front end, a mixture of pre and power amp - all that is everything else than what was constructed in those green boxes.
And - much more difficult today - as every company makes things without any standard in mind.
What I want to say - if you would own a Marantz 8B, or 9 mono - a MAC 225 or 240, a Quad or a Leak amp - they would work with the Shindo pres (with most of them) - because in those days they built the things with the 600 Ohm standard in mind....
Also gain was no problem - it is adjustable on a Mac and will work also with the Marantz (which has no input sensivity pots).
But today everything is different....!!!!!!
Please keep that in mind - I think you do not have only a problem with the right cart/SUT combo - there is also Gain problems with VR and Lamm...

You have to sit back and think about what you want do listen today and maybe in 3 years.
And if you like the Shindo sound - you have to do some radical decisions.
If you are not sure - try the Lamm complete amp chain - it is also a very good sounding solution - which works with your speakers.
Some people sell the Shindo stuff because they could not find a good solution with a mixture of Shindo and other stuff (which is also true wit mixed up equipment of other brands - think why you find so much stuff on audiogon and elsewhere...)


5. @Junker

First we have to know if Shindo uses a 47Kohm RIAA input for his SUT solution.
Than we have, as you describe a secondary load on the SUT - are you sure that is really the case?????
My guess is a 1:26 SUT inside - and the Lundahls could be wired up in a different way....so there are more possibilities.
The SPU should see something around 60 Ohms from the SUT - I mean a real SPU - not the stuff made today with 6 Ohms - for that you need 100 Ohm!

And there is no reason to blame someone - it is not easy to read the figures and do draw a signal flow chart just watching the preamp - Junker is right when it comes to what Shindo presents officially - but that is in my opinion just the beginning - with no exact data on the given SUT without secondary loading and knowledge about the rest of the sheme (RIAA input impedance and so on) it is more or less guessing.
Also intresting is the output of the RIAA to the Lin stage - is there any feedback?? - how is the RIAA cupeled to the Lin stage (kathode follower, Transformer, SRPP, direct?????).
We do not know!

Greetings Ekki


PS: Here is another EMT fanboy sitting in Berlin;-)))) - Love the bold and saturated sound - maybe the greatest bass.....

I use my EMT JSD5 with a Shröder Reference SQ with Bamboo armtube and 14g eff mass.
Th Schröder is mounted on a Baur DPS III IT (in USA it is distributed via Ayre) - or I use it on the original EMT Banana Arm on a Platine - which is modified with a tape drive and a different motor.
I use a EMT RIAA stage coming from an EMT 927 drive system with the original Neumann SUTs in place - sounds amazing!

3. The whole system:
Do not ask me if a Lamm amp can handle the high gain Shindo VR - so that you can get normal gain situation together with your Avantgarde - I doubt it.....
I have to look the specs and especially the input sensivity - how is VR with a line signal matching with your Lamm??? - Let´s say a CD player with 2V output gain??? - If that works than you can move on - of not, you have a compatibility problem between VR and Lamm.
You should also have a look to input and output impedances of am and pre.
Do not blame us ;-))) - if there is again too much gain....read trough all posts again - it is important, that you understand the whole system with all gain stages....

Yes, you right. VR-Lamm is a weak link in terms of the gain compatibility.
VR with CD input (2 mV) does have too much gain, with the volume control on VR at about 8 o'clock position.
There is a way to address that, and it was "approved" by Lamm himself - lower Lamm input sensitivity using voltage splitter (just a different value resistor), and that will reduce Lamm gain by about 15 dB, or even more.
Lamm input sensitivity is 0.85 dB and most Shindo amps is 1.0 mV, not too much of a difference, and is possible to correct.
With regards to a whole Shindo system, it is a commitment, that I' not ready for at this juncture.

Hi Ekki:

The SUTs simply bridge the MC connectors (cartridge) on one side, to the MM phono stage on the other side. And the input impedance of every Shindo pre-amp at the V-R level and above is 100 kOhms here. The Aurieges, Monbrison, and Masseto...and I'm assuming the Partarger are/were 47 kOhms.

Vosne-Romanee

Here is a schematic of the SUT implementation and the ability to lower the effective impedance, and thus the reflected impedance seen by the cartridge:

http://www.kandkaudio.com/wp-content...ge_loading.png

My SUT that I made using Lundahl LL1933 modules have two gain settings where the difference in the transformer is whether the primary coils are ran serial or parallel. I can and do load them however I want 1:16 up to ~180 ohms and at 1:8 up to ~600 ohms. I have number of Shinkoh tantalum resistors in different values to adjust my loading within these ranges. Currently with a Denon 103R I am running @ 1:16 with an effective loading of 100 ohms.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Loading.tiff

http://www.lundahl.se/wp-content/upl...heets/1933.pdf

You can read an introduction to selecting and setting-up SUT's here. K&K also has calculated resistor values for most of the Lundahl transformers. Kevin @ K&K is about the best person to speak with other than Per Lundahl himself. Kevin is the global expert at selecting and setting up Lundahl transformers.

K&K Audio | Moving Coil Step Up Guide
mc step-up transformers explained

I agree that the total gain through the pre-amp would require us to know the cartridge output -> MC SUT -> MM -> Line stage. But we do know the approximate sensitivity of the MM stage and the output of the cartridge so an approximate step-up ratio, and as you estimated we know about what load the cartridge would like to see.

My view isn't looking at total gain. As far as I am concerned the amplifier and speaker sensitivity are irrelevant. I'm trying to look at how the cartridge should be connected via an SUT to the MM input and optimized here. The OP's concern with gain is DIFFERENT. He wanted to adjust his cartridge gain to compensate for the fact that he has 108 dB speakers and a NON-Shindo amp. The easiest solutions are to have a Shindo amp and adjust the gain there... that is what this feature is for in his products. This last part here is my opinion, and other than this I cannot add anything to this discussion. There are many journeys with respect to his overall configuration. But I would not be trying to offset a powerful and/or sensitive amp which is non-adjustable in the way that Shindo amps are, or run crazy sensitive speakers by turning my cartridge down. I agree with everything you conclude with.

Best regards,

Josh

Hi Junker

100Kohm - have you calculated that in your post about the turn ratio????
As you might know all SUT calculation vary with the input impedance of the RIAA stage....

I am not a FAN of loading wether the primary - nor the secondary - and it does not matter if you use a Shinkoh or a normal Vishay - a native SUT with his "natural" loading is in my opinion a lot better regarding the sound.
Loading is popular - because it makes one SUT more flexible - but it is not the best way!
It is a little bit too complicated and too long to explain here in detail why that is - so sorry for letting things unanswered.

If you are more interested in a good read from one of the masters of SUT design - read Dave´s Intact Audio Site - and his forum.

Have all a nice day

Ekki

Yes, here.

http://www.audioaficionado.org/746406-post64.html

The physics of a transformer limit the maximum step-up ratio so it is not always possible to achieve the correct load and high step-up ratio. Of course it would be better to have a perfect gain and loading but this often isn't possible without a parallel resistor. Having correct loading is more important than the sound of a parallel resistor. And who makes a 1:23 SUT? This is not practical.

"My view isn't looking at total gain. As far as I am concerned the amplifier and speaker sensitivity are irrelevant. I'm trying to look at how the cartridge should be connected via an SUT to the MM input and optimized here. The OP's concern with gain is DIFFERENT. He wanted to adjust his cartridge gain to compensate for the fact that he has 108 dB speakers and a NON-Shindo amp. The easiest solutions are to have a Shindo amp and adjust the gain there... that is what this feature is for in his products. This last part here is my opinion, and other than this I cannot add anything to this discussion. There are many journeys with respect to his overall configuration. But I would not be trying to offset a powerful and/or sensitive amp which is non-adjustable in the way that Shindo amps are, or run crazy sensitive speakers by turning my cartridge down. I agree with everything you conclude with.

Best regards,

Josh"


I don't necessarily want to adjust cartridge gain to compensate for something else.
First of all, speakers sensitivity is irrelevant here, the gain structure of the system is.
The main issue in my present setup, is the internal Shindo SUT is not designed for the cartridge as Koetsu with 0.5 mV output (as a matter of fact, for the majority of contemporary cartridges, that have an average output around that value)
So, what I' trying to do, following an advise of many here, is to use external SUT with appropriate cartridge, so the combined output will be appropriate for VR MM stage. And this is not to compensate for anything, just to make it appropriate for the VR, so it's MM stage works within the design parameters.
As I mentioned before, majority of Shindo own power amps have an input sensitivity of 1.0 V, vs, Lamm's 0.85, which is not a huge difference.
Shindo uses adjustable input sensitivity pot to make it more flexible, but the same result can be achieved with lowering Lamm"s input sensitivity, using voltage splitter- same concept, as Shindo, just fixed.
I don't think my speakers are not all that different from Shindo own designs- same above 100 dB sensitivity and 16 Ohm impedance.
It doesn't seem, there is anything very special about Shindo amps specs, better suited for their own preamps for sure, and apparently voiced accordingly.

Okay. Then the answer is simple: for a 0.5v cartridge you would like a step-up ratio of about 1:6 to achieve 3mV. Done. The LL9226 offers an 1:5 (2.5mV) configuration and the LL1931/LL1933 provide for an 1:8 (4mV) configuration. Good luck.

And BTW when you say 1mV input sensitivity that is with the pot at full blast which no one does. Just FYI...

Last night I set this up with the volume about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way with 100dB Altecs. Your speakers are basically about 8 times louder.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...687CDA931C.JPG

So, if "full blast" is 1 V, what sensitivity value corresponds to the more average pot position? 2 V.?

@Junker and of course @all;-))))

Sut loading is not comparable with resistor loading of an active RIAA stage....
For what do we need loading???

The best would be no loading at all - because loading with a resistor damps our cart.
BUT - everyone will agree, that in very, very seldom cases an open MC Cart with no loading sounds good - there are RIAA stages were this is the case - but it is seldom seen.
So what do we achieve with loading????

Our RIAA stages deal in a different style with the HF rise coming from our MC cart - with HF rise - I mean not the bump you see often with the frequency charts of your cart - I mean bumps in the region of 30Khz and above, which are not shown in the frequency charts - because they stop at 20Khz.

What we think now is - we have to get rid of this HF shit, because it sounds bad - but we do not hear the HF rise directly from the cart - maybe our dogs can hear that, we can´t.
But everyone will agree that a cart sounds better if we find the right amount of damping.
The problem is - that our RIAA can not deal with the HF rise - we hear the effect of the HF rise through what our RIAA makes out of it.
The RIAA has technical problems to handle the incoming HF from our MC cart.
It starts to to oscillate and generates a sort of not harmonic distortion -and there are more problems which will be too much to describe here.
As higher the capacitance of our arm cable or arm cable with phonocable (if the arm is not wired with a single run of cables) - as worse the HF will do his work with our RIAA stage.
So we damp a cart, because we want to make the job for the RIAA stage easier and therefor we get a better sound.
No RIAA is equal regarding the HF coming from our cart.
And without the knowledge of capacitance of the used cable - tipps and hints of how much damping a cart needed is useless.
That is one reason why two High End Freaks can debate days about loading experiences with one and the same cart!

In general - transistor stages have more problems with HF coming from our cart than tube stages have - but there are also transistor stages which are constructed in a way, that they can deal with the incoming HF without sounding harsh - an example is the Klayne 7 and the new Willy Bauer RIAA - users of one of the two will tell you, they use their Lyra Etna with no damping at all - putting it directly in a 47 Kohm input - users of a Pass X Ono would cry out loud and argue - that is not possible - because they tried it - and it sounds ugly.

More electrical damping (lower resistor figures) mean also we loose output (Lenz´s law!!!!),

But also two users with a Klyne 7 might have different experience - in that example we have to ask which arm-cables are used - and what is the total capacitance of them.

A transformer is a different animal - maybe you have recognized that you cannot compare damping results with an active RIAA stage with what is going on with a transformer.
A DL 103 will sound in most active stages very nice with 400 Ohms loading (read what I have written so far - it is just a common example...) - with a classic DL 103 SUT the DL 103 sees at a RIAA input of 47Kohms 100 Ohm.
And the DL 103 does not sound more damped with the SUT, than with the active stage (good transformer is a given fact here).
If we would damp a SPU with an active stage to 60 or 50 Ohm, it would sound lifeless and dead - with a classic SPU SUT the cart is damped with around 60 Ohm.
The reason for that is - that the SUT "amplifies" the MC signal in a total different way as our active stage does.
The SUT has a much larger damping window for a given cart - than the active stage has.
Normally we listen with an active stage while trying different resistors to the Treble performance and how fast the cart reacts to the transients of the music - as we also listen to a bloated bass.
We try to achieve as much openess and sped as we can get with no harshness in the sound.
Sometimes we find with an active stage - that this goal is only reached with only one specified resistor - lets say we think 400 Ohms are nice - 500 is too less the cart starts to get harsh on hot treble parts - like the human S - and with 300Ohm we hear the cart lost speed and agility.
With a SUT it will never happen this way - you have a much wider spectrum regarding loading or damping, as with an active stage with the resistor damping.

A SUT is not as critical as the active stage.
So there is normally no reason to find the sweet spot - because it is not a spot, it is a range!

What you do with loading the secondary is not only to get different damping figures with your SUT - you change a lot more in your SUT it gets a different dynamic character as without loading the secondary.
I am not afraid of the "sound" of one single resistor - it is absolutely right, that we can not hear this passive element in our signal flow - but the resistor changes not only the damping our SUT gives to the cart - it changes his character - his dynamic character.
Try to get rid of the resistor and listen carefully - important is dynamic and micro dynamic.
Put it back and listen again........you will recognize a difference - as more you load the SUT down as more difference will be there - this is not subtile, it is dramatic!
Let´s say you use a 3 Ohm SUT (1:30) with a Koetsu which needs a 5 Ohm SUT (1:26 - or 1:20) - than you can change the 3 Ohm SUT with resistors that it fits the bill - but it will NEVER sound as good as the 1:20 or 1:26 SUT - NEVER!
The dynamic ability is now compromised. The Koetsu sounds like it will make you fall asleep.

So it makes much more sense to give a cart a SUT which has a loading window which fits to the cart as loading the secondary to achieve the same figure - but with heavy compromise in the dynamic character of a given SUT.

Now coming back to the RIAA stage - if you use a tubed RIAA, than it is again much less sensitive to the incoming HF from our cart, than an active transistor stage.

At least matching a SUT to a given cart means to be in a compatible loading window for the cart and have the right amount of gain.

Hope that helps

Greetings from Berlin

Ekki

@ Junker
Very nice system GREAT!!!!! - and your example shows, what I tried to explain - if a pre and an amplifier are made for another - means we have a good gain match - than it is no problem to get the volume pots to the section with the best performance - even with highly sensitive speakers - and there is also no impedance mismatch which will cause frequency anomalies.

@maril555
Junker shows us here a classic Shindo system - all the elements work perfectly together.
And I bet, he also was not born as a Shindo audiophile - but he made a decision, and now he enjoys something which goes in my opinion beyond what HiFi can create......

To the gain story:
Think about it - at one point in your VR Ken Shindo managed to get a clean signal with a lot of gain - which is not an easy task!!!!!
He tried everything to get a good SN ratio - and he uses for that tubes - that is even a much greater task!
In your system you have to throw away all that gain (with a modified Lamm amp) - you damp the Shindo with 15db - Ken would go crazy about that!!!!
It is as you buy a Porsche and put a trailer behind the car......you understand what I mean....?????

Greetings

Ekki