Midrange Shindo Upgrade - Pre or Amp?
 

As i boxed up my Monbrison to send out for a checkup I started to think about what Shindo move I would make next given the opportunity.

Currently my system of Monbrison, Montille, Devore 9's, and Transporter (source) have made me a Shindo fan. I've been thinking about my musical tastes (Classic Rock, Newer Rock, Vocals, and Acoustic Jazz) and source preference (digital mainly due to content) and was wondering what would be the next logical and best sounding upgrade. I also just purchased a Metrum Octave DAC to improve my front end.

If going the Amp route my thoughts were to consider a Cortese or CCQ.

If going the Preamp route my thoughts were to consider a Masseto or VR.

Since i'm not really taking advantage of the analog benefits of the preamp (yet) and will likely continue to focus on my digital content library my gut tells me the amp would be the right move.

Based on my musical preferences (artists can be provided) what is the recommended amp type to look for (higher power, push-pull type or lower power, SET type) or does it matter? The Devore 9s are not inefficient but they're not O96 efficient.

Just looking for food for thought from my favorite forum. This isn't a near term plan but more a future thought process or wish list planning although those used wares from Serge are looking mighty tempting.:D

Hi Jayson, if your tastes run to Classic and Newer Rock you may also want to consider the Haut Brion amp. I found it to have a lot more punch and dyanamics than my Montille.

I must urge caution! :scratch2:

You're already showing signs that you've decided to upgrade...:tresbon:

So while it is an extremely gratifying illness, it requires immediate attention...:icon_greenbouncer:

But in all seriousness, Adhesiv, I'd ask Matt over at PPA, since you're already dealing with him. That said,I think I'd opt for the Pre upgrade over a general amp upgrade. But I can appreciate your dilemma.

I'd definitely focus on an amp and/or even consider a speaker upgrade before ditching the Monbrison. It's a terrific pre-amp and I think you'll definitely get more bang-for-the-buck elsewhere. As for Shindo amps, the Cortese unfortunately isn't a good match (Nines do love power).

What is a reasonable amount of power for the nines?

I wish I could help with the Nines. If it helps any, Matt used the Corton Charlemagnes at 25w with the new DeVore Gibbon Tens (Xs) at his Greenhaus event.

The CC monos easily drove the Xs at volume, and his display room is a nice sized room. Actually I was blown away at how good the Xs were in that setting!

Tell us more about the X's!!

CJ,

Here's a photo of the X's:

Wizard High-End Audio Blog: DeVore Fidelity Gibbon X speakers

Candidly, I was a little surprised to read they cost $11K. For that money I'd jump up to the Os.

Thanks Franklin. Wow - those look interesting. John is making some cool new stuff. I wish he would drop by here and tell us about the new and future Devore's!

Hum....I saw the small report in Stereophile web's site. Interesting that DeVore did not choose Shindo to pair them. Maybe that association with ARC reduced his exhibitor's costs....

From what I've seen over the years, DeVore has not typically paired his equipment with Shindo at these events. In the reports that I've seen he's often used Leben. I can't fault the guy if he is trying to show his products working with other set-ups. It certainly wouldn't hurt business.

CJ,

I, too, would love to hear and or read John's thoughts. I really like his approach, and I think the Os are really incredible. It would be fun to learn more about what he's doing, his thoughts, and why he choses certain things. Hopefully, when he makes the reference Os I will have the opportunity before upgrading...

Having owned the Nines, and now the 0/96's, I think Old Grey's advice is spot on. I think the 0/96's will do two things for you. First: they have IMHO, better dynamic capabilities than the Nines. Second: All of a sudden, your amplifier choices become more wide open.
I am using the Corton EL-34, 25 watt mono's with great success. My preamp is the Monbrison. Perhaps checking out The Tens AND the 0/96's would be interesting.

Hmmm, would the O's work well with low power as well? I'd love to try Shindo's SET setup sometime.

Think I need to have a chat with Matt too...thanks for the replies and still interested in others thoughts combinations on the subject.

Adhesiv,

The Os' are terrific speakers. Here's my review on them. I currently use them with a pair of 300B mono blocks that are about 8-9 watts each. And while I am actively looking at a possible implementation involving some 211 tubes, which would put me up closer to 20-25 watts, I don't plan to get rid of my 300B amps. I love them, and they work well with low powered SET's!

And I am using the Devore O's with a Shindo Cortese. Sounds wonderful as well! Have not yet run out of power - 13' by 23' room.

Barr

fjn04... Welcome To AA!!!


:welcome2.:

Franklin,

Great review. With regards to the O96's bass, I didnt have much of a chance to position my O96's around the room, but overall I find them slightly elevated. This attribute does not diminish the enjoyment I get with the speaker, which is considerable, I just don’t think the pure "amount" of bass is particularly accurate.
I have owned Wilson Sophia's that bettered the O96's in this aspect. They had bass drive, impact and depth while not drawing attention to themselves. The bass of the O96's does better the Wilsons in texture and touch.
My system has been in storage for a few weeks and I really miss my Shindo/O96's combo.

Your 300B/O96 combination must be steller. With a VR that must be icing on the cake…I would love to move up to a VR!

Lowens,

Thanks for the kind words. I am intrigued by your statement that you found the O96s' "slightly elevated". Can you explain what that means for you? I'm not trying to be difficult, just wanting to understand. I am also interested in better understanding your comment about the "amount" of bass. Do you mean it in the context of there being "more" bass than what you would expect or believe to be there? Candidly, I just notice that there is more rumble than I heard with anything else. That in turn has provided a greater contrast with the rest of the music, much like the black levels do on a nice Plasma or the new OLED. Just how it might compare with the Sophia's would be interesting. But for me, ignorance is bliss...

BTW, that stinks that you're without everything for a while. Your situation is giving me some pause about a remodel we have planned for late this year. Fortunately, it should not require scuttling the system...

As for the VR - I can't wait! But it sounds like I may not get it and it's cousin, Mr. T until late February. So I'm without anything that I'd call "audiophile" right now. I am, however, able to use my HT Pre-Pro with an EAR phono stage.

You know, FWIW, I was planning on getting the masseto. However, I was able to sell some extra and replaced equipment off and get a little more than I expected. So the leap to the VR was not as bad as you'd have thought. I just hope I can stick to that and not hear the siren call of the Giscour... But then, someone else on this forum just heard the call. So I may soon find out how great it is...

For now, I'm lovin' the Os!

Take care, Lowens, and thanks in advance for the input! :thumbsup:

Yup! :thumbsup:

I lived with the Masseto, Cortese, DeVore 9 combination for over a year and found it to be compelling, musical and dynamic. The amp and the speaker have great synergy sounding much bigger than its 10 very lively watts.

If and when you want to sell your Monbrison to upgrade let me know!

Its a Masseto....

Still - keep me in mind. North Van is not far!

How would you compare/contrast the Cortese to your GM70?

I loved the sound of the Cortese and had trepidation about "upgrading" to the GM70's (Matt had them on exchange and the deal was too good to refuse). But, to my surprise, the amps are similar in their PRAT, dynamics and their "alive" open manner. The GM70's just have a great deal more of the good things: especially space, air, texture and bass. These amps handle rock with more authority and do orchestral in a big, big way. I read an Art Dudley quip about the 70's being the "least Shindo sounding of the Shindo amps". I'm mystified by this because they display all the finesse of the Cortese in my opinion--voices are uncanny--while beefing up some important aforementioned qualities. Truly another rung up on the Shindo amp ladder. If you use the GM70 copper plate tubes, you get more of what Art may be used to: a burnished, beautifully rounded sound that makes it hard to switch back to "reality". Like having another amp in your arsenal.

I'll throw in my $.02 as well. I currently own both F2a and GM-70 amps (non-Shindo) and have auditioned those Shindo amps (Cortese and Lafon) at Pitch Perfect. To me, the GM-70 does share a lot of the traits of the F2a with the benefit of more power, better bass and even more sense of presence. I think I mentioned in a different post that while my 300B amp gives me the sonic perspective of 10th row in a hall, the F2a puts me in the front row and the GM-70 has me up on stage. In addition, copper plated GM-70's have a warmer, more liquid midrange than their graphite counterpart. My only issue with F2a tubes is that after a while I do end up missing some of the midrange warmth I find in other tubes (especially when listening to orchestral strings). Copper plated GM-70's adds a bit of warmth back over the graphite plated GM-70's.

So overall I agree with Steve from New Mexico (awesome system!). While F2a and GM-70's are both wonderful tubes, I prefer the GM-70 (especially with copper plated tubes). Only downside is I find the GM-70 tubes themselves pretty ugly.

The Lafon GM70's are by far my favorite Shindo amps of all those I have heard.

Very interesting stuff! I actually think the GM-70's sound like a great amp, but the CC-34 is the one that has caught my attention... Time will tell, and I'll review at some point whatever I do!

Thanks jw613, I appreciate the welcome. shindostevesan- Did notice that GM-70 comment by AD some time ago. Since Art failed to elaborate, it really didn't mean a whole lot. He did have an interesting column this month (Jan. issue) about the new Haut Brion, also referencing the previous HB, and the CC34's. I assume he was referring to the new version of CC34's, which came out around a year ago. I am referring to the 25 wpc CC's, not the CC-Q's. FranklinLG- the CC34's are great on the 0/96's. I think it would be worth your while to give them a listen. Enjoy that V/R, bet it will change the game for you.

cortnipper... Welcome! :wave:

fjn04... Welcome! :wave:

Thanks everyone so far for all the feedback and sorry for the limited interaction. My weeks have just been crazy lately as i wind up to the final weeks before taking leave for when my wife and I have our first child. I still owe Matt a message offline since we've been chatting a bit via email.

Based on some of the feedback above and my own internal wish washing on actually investing in it, I finally decided to make a change to explore the analog hole in my system as a near term change. I believe from all i've heard is that Shindo just does analog right and i need to explore that. So to free up some funds, I'm selling my Arome...it's listed in the marketplace.

now to spend countless hours researching analog options...:banana:...I think i'm leaning towards a Well Tempered Amadeus...not too grandiose but from what i've heard very competitive with the price multiples.

Thanks for the welcome, and the comments on the GM70. The tube sounds very interesting. I have heard the Cortese, and quite liked it, and the exta juice may be a welcome addition as my 2A3 amp is great, but I sometimes need a bit more.

Adhesive,

I think this is most interesting. If I were in your shoes, and my budget permitted it, I would definitely look at the new WT Versalex. From what little I can gather via the available imagery, I think it is a terrific update and step up from the Amadeus. Be patient on this one.

Best wishes in your efforts, and if there is anything we can offer via thoughts or opinions, please ask!

Finally, and most importantly, congratulations on your impending arrival! What a blessed gift. May God keep you and yours!

+1...

Dave

gortnipper, welcome aboard! :wave:

Small update, my idea has just turned into a reality but jumped up a few tiers from my original post due to an extremely good opportunity I stumbled into.

Giscours on the way!!! :)

Now I gotta find a new home for the excellent Monbrison :(

I wish I could keep them both but alas it's now in the marketplace.

FranklinLG,
I should've listened!! :icon_greenbouncer:

Ha! Hook line and Sinker!

Good Listening,

Des