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maril555 12-02-2015 11:04 PM

New member
 
Hello,
I'm a new member here.
I have always wanted to have Shindo preamp, so when the opportunity presented itself, I purchased Vosne Romanee.
The rest of my system is:
Avantgarde Duo Omega G2
Lamm ML2
PAss LAbs XVR1 active crossover
Stereo JL Audio Phathom 110 subs
Hanss T-60 turntable
Graham Supreme II 10" tonearm
Koetsu Urushi Blue cartridge
My previous preamp, that I still have, is Tron Syren Ultimate II
I'm going to listen to both, Tron and VR, and keep the one, I like better.
After a couple of weeks of having VR, I have some preliminary impressions:
Shindo has more forward midrange, somewhat more impactful bass and overall
more robust and 'bottom up" presentation.
it's is very musical has plenty of detail and has very organic presentation.
Anyhow, I have a few questions, please:
I'm going to try a SUT, as everyone here seems to prefer, so my first question is- what SUT will match my Koetsu?
According to my research, the candidates could be:
Koetsu SUT
Auditorium 23 Hommage (not sure which one, T1, or T2?)
Any other SUT suggestions?
Oh, and I do have Shindo ICs b/w VR and crossover

jdandy 12-02-2015 11:07 PM

maril555.......Welcome to Audio Aficionado. :wave:

tweet 12-02-2015 11:17 PM

maril555... Welcome to AA! :wave:

Masterlu 12-03-2015 12:31 AM

maril555... Welcome to AA! :wave:

ducman748 12-03-2015 04:50 AM

welkom to this beutifull forum

Robert_Anderson 12-03-2015 05:32 AM

Welcome to AA!

Antonmb 12-03-2015 06:18 AM

Welcome Maril555.

fjn04 12-06-2015 11:25 PM

I had a Jade Platinum when I initially bought my Shindo setup. I had very little success making it work with my Shindo preamp. I tried Direct in to MC on my Shindo Monbrison, a Silver-Core SUT, a Choir Hashimoto HM-7, and both Auditorium 23 Standard SUT's. The latter being the low impedance SPU version, and the Denon 103 version. I remember my best results were the Hashimoto, set to it's LOW impedance setting. The worst was direct in to the preamps MC input. All that said, I got too soft of a sound with the Koetsu. It didn't have any PRAT, and was slow and uninvolving. My EMT Tsd-15 was so locked in with the A23 Denon, so that's what I kept, until moving to the T2. I notice you use a Graham, and FWIW, my Jade was on a Basis Vector 3 arm. My best sound from a Koetsu was an RSP on a Graham 2.2, but the system was too different to say I had a mismatch with the Vector/Jade. Not only that, but I did get better sound with the Koetsu/Vector going in to a different preamp prior to the Shindo. I also plan on trying an alternative cartridge soon, hopefully on a second turntable. I am considering the Kiseki, and also intrigued by the Charisma carts. It sounds as if you're getting good sound out of your VR, which is a tremendous preamp.

Alki 12-06-2015 11:27 PM

Welcome aboard, look forward to seeing you around.

shindojo 12-07-2015 02:00 PM

Hi Everyone,

I am also new to the club. The webpage says that I do not have privilege to post new thread (???). So, posting here.

I do have a question to Shindo experts.

I am currently using VR pre with CC34. Expecting to receive Shindo 301 TT by end of this year. How do you compare A23 homage T1 to VR MC stage? Is it really worth for another $5k? With my Dynavector 17d3 (low output, high impedance cartridge), I got much better result when I used VR with A23 standard SUT. But, this could be because CR MC stage is designed for low impedance pickup. Correct?

Here is the photo of my system. VPI Scoutmaster will be replaced with Shindo 301. :)

https://goo.gl/photos/mNt45iiQM1EHWDBY6

maril555 12-07-2015 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 745426)
I had a Jade Platinum when I initially bought my Shindo setup. I had very little success making it work with my Shindo preamp. I tried Direct in to MC on my Shindo Monbrison, a Silver-Core SUT, a Choir Hashimoto HM-7, and both Auditorium 23 Standard SUT's. The latter being the low impedance SPU version, and the Denon 103 version. I remember my best results were the Hashimoto, set to it's LOW impedance setting. The worst was direct in to the preamps MC input. All that said, I got too soft of a sound with the Koetsu. It didn't have any PRAT, and was slow and uninvolving. My EMT Tsd-15 was so locked in with the A23 Denon, so that's what I kept, until moving to the T2. I notice you use a Graham, and FWIW, my Jade was on a Basis Vector 3 arm. My best sound from a Koetsu was an RSP on a Graham 2.2, but the system was too different to say I had a mismatch with the Vector/Jade. Not only that, but I did get better sound with the Koetsu/Vector going in to a different preamp prior to the Shindo. I also plan on trying an alternative cartridge soon, hopefully on a second turntable. I am considering the Kiseki, and also intrigued by the Charisma carts. It sounds as if you're getting good sound out of your VR, which is a tremendous preamp.

Thanks so much for responding to my questions.
I'm using MC input on Shindo, as I don't have SUT yet, and I have to tell you, my experience is very different form what you describe.
It is very dynamic, not soft, "slow", or rolled-off at all.
In that sense, Shindo VR is not much different from my other preamp, Tron Syren Ultimate- the only difference is timbral balance.
As a matter of fact, I had our audiophile club meeting at my place, where I used Shindo, and it seems, people universally liked, what they heard. It even got an applause on a couple of pieces.
I do have a few reservations though with my present arrangement
1. VR has a little bit too much gain for my 108 dB system
2. MC input is not completely quiet, as it is with Tron, hum is VERY low, but present.
A question- what is the cartridge loading value in VR?
I know, Koetsu "likes" 100 Ohm.
Will an outboard SUT potentially minimize the residual hum, I'm experiencing with the bult-in SUT?

junker 12-07-2015 04:13 PM

Phono Input‐Switchable
Phono MC(RCA Pin Jack)Input Sensitivity/Impedance:0.2mV/2 - 100Ω.
Phono MM(RCA Pin Jack)Input Sensitivity/Impedance:3mV/100KΩ.
Output(XLR Jack) Impedance: 8V/600Ω.
Phono Max. Input Voltage:1,200 mV.
Total Harmonic Distortion:0.01%.
Signal to Noise Ratio:119 dB.
Frequency Responce:20 - 20,000 Hz.
Power Consumption:80W.
Power Requirements:AC 120V or 220V - 230V 50/60 Hz.
Dimesions:W 400×H 165×D 270 mm.
Weight:10.5 Kg.

fjn04 12-07-2015 05:34 PM

Byung-Hyun- VERY nice looking setup you have there. Congrats on the potential acquisition of a Shindo 301, I've enjoyed it every time I've heard it. This is my opinion, and obviously there are others who know more.... I have preferred an outboard SUT with Dynavector, Koetsu, and as you might imagine, EMT. The latter not a fair fight, as the built in Shindo MC is optimized for LO impedance. I would just enjoy the ride. Get that wonderful table, and run the SPU in to your V/R. Then of course, you can always get a Homage T1. maril555- tough one there. That's where it would be nice if you had an attenuator on you amp, like Shindo uses. Obviously, this doesn't appear to be an issue with your Tron PRE in to your AMP. It doesn't sound like a 12AU7, or 12AT7 if it's just a hum. I get this occasionally only when I move my SUT, and moving it an inch or so alleviates the hum. Either that, or re-dressing one of the interconnects. Again, there are others who know more, but that's been my experience. Cheers -Don

junker 12-07-2015 06:07 PM

With 108 db speakers you will hear hum/noise with just about anything... transformers don't generate any noise, only distortion (mostly 2nd order). That's the beauty about transformers... they are passive devices that both increase gain and reduce impedance - both desirable with MC cartridges. An external SUT may be less influenced by other EMF sources but it's hard to say if so, and how much. Shindo uses mu metal shielded phono transformers.

maril555 12-07-2015 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junker (Post 745561)
With 108 db speakers you will hear hum/noise with just about anything... transformers don't generate any noise, only distortion (mostly 2nd order). That's the beauty about transformers... they are passive devices that both increase gain and reduce impedance - both desirable with MC cartridges. An external SUT may be less influenced by other EMF sources but it's hard to say if so, and how much. Shindo uses mu metal shielded phono transformers.

I agree. Hum is most likely due to the power supply-generated EMF being picked-up by the SUT.
Here lies the reason for my initial question. Since the internal SUT, no matter how well shielded, is in close proximity to the internal PS, it hums. Then physically removing an external SUT away from the VR power supply, in theory may produce less hum

junker 12-08-2015 01:07 AM

Yes that seems about right, but don't forget that the V-R has pretty extensive interior sectioning. It would be interesting to hear your results if you audition an external SUT. Also, consider trying out a Mr. T. - it clearly improved AC hum in my apartment.

Loop4fun 12-08-2015 04:02 AM

SUTs are very cartridge specific. The Shindo's are designed for the the SPU type cartridges and I felt like I had too much gain for the Dynavector. I had the same very low volume hum you describe with the internal VR's SUT, but none at all with the A23.

I just switched to the Teatro and have ordered a Bob's Sky 20. The Giscours works really well with the Teatro and Bob's 1131 at 1:20 but Bob said the Sky 1:20 uses the whole transformer rather than half of it. I'm looking forward to trying it. I also have a Lyra Etna and use a Lyra Erodion SUT with it. The Etna does not sound as good with the Bob's at 1:20. For it, he recommends the Sky 1:30.

While the VR's internal transformer worked ok with my Dynavector, I learned it was not the optimum choice and was never meant to be. The T1 would not be either for that matter.

vinod_david 12-08-2015 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shindojo (Post 745520)
Hi Everyone, I am also new to the club.

Welcome to AA.

maril555 12-08-2015 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loop4fun (Post 745697)
SUTs are very cartridge specific. The Shindo's are designed for the the SPU type cartridges and I felt like I had too much gain for the Dynavector. I had the same very low volume hum you describe with the internal VR's SUT, but none at all with the A23.

I just switched to the Teatro and have ordered a Bob's Sky 20. The Giscours works really well with the Teatro and Bob's 1131 at 1:20 but Bob said the Sky 1:20 uses the whole transformer rather than half of it. I'm looking forward to trying it. I also have a Lyra Etna and use a Lyra Erodion SUT with it. The Etna does not sound as good with the Bob's at 1:20. For it, he recommends the Sky 1:30.

While the VR's internal transformer worked ok with my Dynavector, I learned it was not the optimum choice and was never meant to be. The T1 would not be either for that matter.

Teatro is an AMG cart, right?
My Koetsu Urushi Blue has a source impedance of 5 Ohm (considered low),
so, to my understanding, A 23 Hommage T1 should be a good match?
and so is Koetsu SUT.
Please, correct me, if I'm wrong
You confirmed my suspicion with regards to the origin of the MC input hum, I'm hoping external SUT will take care of that, and maybe will lower the gain?
Do you think Bob's devices might be a good match for Koetsu?
Tx

fjn04 12-08-2015 12:54 PM

Bob Satin has a lot of experience with Koetsu. See what he says. You may have hit upon something there. I'm sorry I didn't at least give the 1131 a shot…. The Sky did not exist at that time. With the 30-day trial, you have little to lose.
"While the VR's internal transformer worked ok with my Dynavector, I learned it was not the optimum choice and was never meant to be. The T1 would not be either for that matter." This is also my understanding as far as Dynavector/Shindo/Homage matching.

maril555 12-08-2015 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjn04 (Post 745744)
Bob Satin has a lot of experience with Koetsu. See what he says. You may have hit upon something there. I'm sorry I didn't at least give the 1131 a shot…. The Sky did not exist at that time. With the 30-day trial, you have little to lose.
"While the VR's internal transformer worked ok with my Dynavector, I learned it was not the optimum choice and was never meant to be. The T1 would not be either for that matter." This is also my understanding as far as Dynavector/Shindo/Homage matching.

I wrote to Bob Satin. Will see, what he got to say.

Vinyljh 12-08-2015 01:33 PM

I see a lot of talk about how to make Shindo work in ways its not meant to work. So rather than try to answer all these questions, I'll just say make some statements to try to set things straight. Just about everything in this thread is wrong. Sorry, don't mean to sound like a jerk.

Shindo is a system with very specific goals and mates. Hum is not the VR's fault, they don't hum. Cables cause hum, component placement causes hum.

I have a few very good dealers that can help sort these systems into something true to Shindo's vision, the rest is just the usual mix and match with varying degrees of success. Why buy a Shindo preamp and not use it as it was designed? Its a bit baffling to me. I see incompatible speakers, rooms(not so easy to fix), turntables, racks and amps. In the case of the photos provided, a Shindo 301 has no chance of working on that rack. Lots of talk about using other non-system matched pieces being suggested. To what end?

Shindo system should have high impedance, high efficiency speakers. (In the case of a Shindo amp, I would not use AG speakers as they seem to have some back EMF issues which makes them sound better with lower output impedance amps- just my personal experience) Matching preamp, amp and cabling. Shindo cartridge (or a real Ortofon SPU, not the higher impedance non bakelite ones) or the Denon 103, or EMT with the matching step up from Auditorium 23. The rest is not getting what you paid for. And before I'm told I'm being a salesman or biased, which is true, most of the posters here seem to not be in my market. I'm just stating some facts.

If a dealer or distributor has sold these pieces and did not advise how it should be done correctly, I would immediately complain directly to Shindo. I wouldn't stand for it in my market. We would always pass on any sale where we knew it would not be used correctly and thats exactly what Shindo wants. On occasion, we flex a little with the hopes and ideas the clients will finish the system correctly as funds permit. Sometimes clients simply wont listen to solid advice and go round and round and round. Frustrating.

This reply is not meant to insult anyone, hurt anyones feelings or to be a jerk. It just seems lately the only posts are about shoe horning part of a total system into a mix and match system.

Over and out.

Jonathan

maril555 12-08-2015 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinyljh (Post 745750)
I see a lot of talk about how to make Shindo work in ways its not meant to work. So rather than try to answer all these questions, I'll just say make some statements to try to set things straight. Just about everything in this thread is wrong. Sorry, don't mean to sound like a jerk.

Shindo is a system with very specific goals and mates. Hum is not the VR's fault, they don't hum. Cables cause hum, component placement causes hum.

I have a few very good dealers that can help sort these systems into something true to Shindo's vision, the rest is just the usual mix and match with varying degrees of success. Why buy a Shindo preamp and not use it as it was designed? Its a bit baffling to me. I see incompatible speakers, rooms(not so easy to fix), turntables, racks and amps. In the case of the photos provided, a Shindo 301 has no chance of working on that rack. Lots of talk about using other non-system matched pieces being suggested. To what end?

Shindo system should have high impedance, high efficiency speakers. (In the case of a Shindo amp, I would not use AG speakers as they seem to have some back EMF issues which makes them sound better with lower output impedance amps- just my personal experience) Matching preamp, amp and cabling. Shindo cartridge (or a real Ortofon SPU, not the higher impedance non bakelite ones) or the Denon 103, or EMT with the matching step up from Auditorium 23. The rest is not getting what you paid for. And before I'm told I'm being a salesman or biased, which is true, most of the posters here seem to not be in my market. I'm just stating some facts.

If a dealer or distributor has sold these pieces and did not advise how it should be done correctly, I would immediately complain directly to Shindo. I wouldn't stand for it in my market. We would always pass on any sale where we knew it would not be used correctly and thats exactly what Shindo wants. On occasion, we flex a little with the hopes and ideas the clients will finish the system correctly as funds permit. Sometimes clients simply wont listen to solid advice and go round and round and round. Frustrating.

This reply is not meant to insult anyone, hurt anyones feelings or to be a jerk. It just seems lately the only posts are about shoe horning part of a total system into a mix and match system.

Over and out.

Jonathan

Jonathan,
I can feel your frustration. I feel exactly the same way, when my patients "improvise" and deviate from my advice.
In my own defense, I have a system, that has been 'sorted out" to a significant degree, especially speakers- amplifiers part of it.
So, introducing VR into the system, I fully realize a risk of potential mismatch, and am far from blaming Shindo for less, than optimal outcome.
Nevertheless, I feel there is a sizable population of audiophiles out there, who use Shindo preamp outside of the full Shindo system concept.
If I may speak on behalf of that group, I'd personally would greatly appreciate your input, with the understanding, that almost any solution, than a full Shindo system, might be suboptimal.
And since we are on the topic, I'd love to hear your opinion on what SUT would be a good match for Koetsu Urushi, to be used with VR.
PS. I do use Shindo ICs, if that can earn me some liniency

McKen 12-08-2015 07:16 PM

I was seriously considering buying a Cortese or Montille last year. The northeast rep would only sell me a complete system. I gave up and bought something else.

Masterlu 12-08-2015 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McKen (Post 745810)
I was seriously considering buying a Cortese or Montille last year. The northeast rep would only sell me a complete system. I gave up and bought something else.

Their loss :dunno:

Vinyljh 12-08-2015 08:03 PM

They did the honorable thing by not taking his money knowing it wouldn't work correctly. Shindo amp without its preamp and cables is a huge waste of money and almost guarantees failure. Yes, their financial loss. They did the right thing in an industry that sells cables that cost $50k.

Transformers- I can only guess because Koetsu is not part of the system. How does the pre sound with the amp, with the speakers with the room... So many variables, no simple answers. My best guess would be a T2. Just a guess. A transformer can only be designed with one cartridge.

Jonathan

McKen 12-08-2015 08:10 PM

I ended up buying Crimson DAC from Gordon Rankin and a FW SET from Nelson Pass, both of who took the time and care to speak to me directly over email about my purchases to ensure I selected the right product. I get your whole system sell strategy but frankly it comes across as snobbery. Heck the rep even cancelled an in home demo on me.

Vinyljh 12-08-2015 08:20 PM

I have no idea whom this "rep" is. An in home demo is not something most do. How can you bring a whole system to someones home and even hope to get it set up in a few hours, let alone a few days. Can you tell me who this rep is? Must be another part to this story I'd like to learn about.

Its not snobbery, sorry you took it this way. Shindo is noI just another amp maker, the gear is far from universal like pretty much all the rest of the manufacturers out there. I'm glad you found things that work for you and your system.

Jonathan

McKen 12-08-2015 08:29 PM

Is there a way to PM you? I think it's "take it offline" time...thanks

Vinyljh 12-08-2015 08:31 PM

My contact email is on my website. Thanks.

Jonathan

Masterlu 12-08-2015 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McKen (Post 745824)
Is there a way to PM you? I think it's "take it offline" time...thanks

PM privileges are one of the many benefits in becoming a Subscriber.

755a 12-08-2015 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maril555 (Post 745786)
Jonathan, I can feel your frustration. I feel exactly the same way, when my patients "improvise" and deviate from my advice. In my own defense, I have a system, that has been 'sorted out" to a significant degree, especially speakers- amplifiers part of it. So, introducing VR into the system, I fully realize a risk of potential mismatch, and am far from blaming Shindo for less, than optimal outcome. Nevertheless, I feel there is a sizable population of audiophiles out there, who use Shindo preamp outside of the full Shindo system concept. If I may speak on behalf of that group, I'd personally would greatly appreciate your input, with the understanding, that almost any solution, than a full Shindo system, might be suboptimal. And since we are on the topic, I'd love to hear your opinion on what SUT would be a good match for Koetsu Urushi, to be used with VR. PS. I do use Shindo ICs, if that can earn me some liniency

This is like when your patients say "I understand what you are saying but what if .....".

I had a shindo pre and a Mac amp. It sounded good. Now I have an all shindo/a23 system and it sounds great. Take that for what it's worth. When my clients don't take my advice I fire them. I understand where JH is coming from now that I have a system that was built to work as a system.

755a 12-08-2015 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 755a (Post 745837)
This is like when your patients say "I understand what you are saying but what if .....". I had a shindo pre and a Mac amp. It sounded good. Now I have an all shindo/a23 system and it sounds great. Take that for what it's worth. When my clients don't take my advice I fire them. I understand where JH is coming from now that I have a system that was built to work as a system.

Actually it does not sound great. It sounds amazing. My all shindo and a23 system has taken me to hifi places that I never though I could achieve. Satisfied is an understatement. I think over the years I have spoken to every dealer and to JH many times. They have all been fantastic and without fault. I explained what I wanted to achieve and they helped me do it. I did not try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

maril555 12-08-2015 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 755a (Post 745837)
This is like when your patients say "I understand what you are saying but what if .....".

I had a shindo pre and a Mac amp. It sounded good. Now I have an all shindo/a23 system and it sounds great. Take that for what it's worth. When my clients don't take my advice I fire them. I understand where JH is coming from now that I have a system that was built to work as a system.

I'm not going to argue with that.
But at this point of time, I simply have no fortitude to build a whole new system from scratch
Too much time and effort invested in the current one.
Now, had I have a chance to hear the whole Shindo system, might have changed my mind

maril555 12-08-2015 10:34 PM

BTW, cam anyone tell me how much gain internal VR SUT provides?
In other words, what is the gain of the VR MM section vs. MC?
I couldn't find this info on Shindo website

755a 12-08-2015 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maril555 (Post 745843)
I'm not going to argue with that. But at this point of time, I simply have no fortitude to build a whole new system from scratch Too much time and effort invested in the current one. Now, had I have a chance to hear the whole Shindo system, might have changed my mind

I get it. I never had that luxury either. I had built a system I enjoyed but based on what I had read on line and in print I knew the system was not speaking to me the way I wanted it to. I bought my shindo and a23 system bit by bit. All without ever having the chance to demo in person. All based on reading and communicating with the dealers and the distributor. I took their advice with each step. I have never been disappointed .

Now some items required break in to sound how they should. My Auditorium A23 755a homage are a good example. I bought them with out hearing them and they were not cheap. They sounded good when I got them. Now after 600 hours (exactly what the manufacturer, distributor and dealer said) they sound sublime. I could not be happier.

McKen 12-09-2015 12:01 PM

I know I had less than positive things to say about Tone Imports in an earlier thread. Since then I have received very quick follow up of concern and care from Jonathan Halpern. I would therefore like to rescind my negative comment and enforce the very recent positive interaction where it is obvious they care very much about both their current and future customers. As such, I will keep Shindo systems on my future wish list of dream audio gear.

Ken

fjn04 12-09-2015 01:23 PM

My experience with the Shindo family has always been great. I have heard speaker A (90DB/4ohm), with amplifier B, in a system where a Shindo amp would not be appropriate. The pre was a Shindo, using Shindo interconnect. I'm not going to claim this system was my holy grail, but it was VERY good. I have no doubt, better than if the preamp was one of the other usual suspects. I ended up staying the course, and went with a Shindo preamp/amp/A23 cabling, and appropriate speakers. At this time, a nice pair of Valencia 846A's, and DeVore 96's. I'm certainly not looking back, only forward. I want to ad another TT setup next year, and am undecided as to which one. My Amadeus GTA, another great purchase via team Shindo, will stay. I can't see going Denon 103, although I'm sure it punches well above it's weight. Plus, I doubt it's the equal of my Tsd-15 SFL, and it apparently likes high mass arms. I am open to going with an appropriate SPU, but of course it makes the choice of tables a bit tougher. The consensus again, High mass 12" arm…. Price range is around 10K for table and arm. Here again, my price range will preclude consideration of Shindo 301, or the new SPEC table. It should be a fun and interesting year. Now back to our OP, and regularly scheduled programming. Cheers -Don

maril555 12-09-2015 01:42 PM

Nobody answered my question yet- what are the gain values for Vosne Romanee MM and MC stages?
This information cannot be a secret, can it?

junker 12-09-2015 02:34 PM

The gain values and loading are specific to the intended cartridge, and in the V-R MC design that is going to be for the Shindo Cartridge. You can estimate the step-up ratio by dividing the input sensitivity of the MM divided by the that of the MC as listed in the specs I posted for you earlier from the Shindo website.


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