Hey gort, I'm interested but your setup denies PM...have you used the Schick with a 301?

Hey, I am interested in the arm too, I sent you a personal message with some questions.
Thanks
Doug

You actually HAVE Lafites???? Let's see them.. how are they??? What did they replace???

Hmm...should work. Try again.

ah i just realized PM doesn't work if you're not a subscriber...i sent you a visitor message instead...not sure if that's similar or not...let me know if you still haven't gotten it.

Ok well now that's settled (thanks gortnipper) time to find a cartridge...I've done some research and both the Ortofon SPU 90 and Ortofon A90 have my interest. With the A90 I'll also have to buy a headshell (Yamamoto?).

The other option is the much more affordable Denon 103r in soundsmith body or zu103.

If you could pick one which would you go with to pair a 301/Schick combo?

The 90th Anniversary always tempted me, but I never did the deal.

My mate had both a SS re-tipped 103r in a Uwe body, and a Zu103. The SS killed the Zu.

IMHO, it depends a lot on what SUT you have or will have. I have really noticed that a lot recently as I have played with Jensen, Cinemag 3440, 1131 Blue, EAR MC4 and Shindo's inbuilt.

But, out of what you list I would pop for the SPU 90!

Question for you Shindo guys: some of the preamps already include step-ups for MC coil, but you are opting to go with a stand alone phono stage- I assume the built-in transformers are already optimized for an Ortofon cartridge? And that going stand alone is simply because you can improve on what is built in?
(and that purchasing preamp with built in phono is partly to build in steps and defray expense? otherwise, why not linestage sans phono and standalone phono?)
Not really up on Shindo equipment details, though I plan to take a listen, if I can to the full on system.
Best,
Bill Hart

Whart-That's a question most certainly best asked to Matt, but I will take a stab. The Shindo preamps all come with a built in phono stage, except for the Aurieges, which you can order WITH a phono stage. You are correct in stating the built in SUT(in the MC input) is optimized for low impedance cartridges such as an SPU. For some reason, 2 ohm impedance sticks in my mind...! Please don't take my word for sure on that. Then, if you use different higher impedance cartridges, it would be a better to use a stand alone SUT. A common example would be the EMT cartridges, for which I use either an A23Hi-Impedance (Denon) SUT or a Choir Hashimoto on it's Hi-Impedance setting.
A23 also makes the T1 Homage, and the newer T2 Homage. The former for lower Impedance such as SPU's, the latter for Hi such as EMT. I hope this basic info helps. I couldn't offer any more, but I am sure Matt or your local dealer could. Hell of a nice system BTW!
Countingbackward- I see where you're coming from, that's where my head is right now. I was just checking out the Ligno 301 setup on Matt's site. Out of my $$ range, but looks awesome. I would love to have that floating on my Lignolab BENCH. Shindoug-I have tried a Silvercore, I think it was a model above the 1-10 unit you are referring to. It sounded very good, and would be well worth checking out.

Simple - standalone tube MC phono stages would also be MM stage + step-up. Unless the step up happens to be optimal for your cartridge, you would need external step-ups even in case of a standalone phono. So the option you mention is really: Linestage + phono stage + step up.

Including the MM tube phono stage in the line stage in one package is much cleaner. You then optimize the part that needs optimization for the cart you use.

I'm using an A90 direct into the MC input on my Monbrison and it sounds phenomenal to me - it's an excellent match. I haven't compared it to other SUT's - other SUT's could be better just as any component can be improved, but the Shindo SUT is as well-matched to the A90 as it could be to any cartridge. The A90 is, if I remember properly, a 4 ohm cartridge. Anything 10 and under should work well, in theory at least.

fjn and restock- thank you both for replying. I guess my terminology was imprecise in referring to phono stage to cover both phono pre (with equalization) and step up transformer. And restock, i suppose you are right, i guess alot of freestanding phono stages may still force you to buy the precise step-up transformer. (i have not had good luck with those- i used an ortfon back in the early 70's and much more recently, my experience with Manley Steelhead led me to conclude that i liked my moving coil cartridges (a Lyra Titan i and now an Airtight PC1) through the MM inputs, rather than through the autoformers. For some reason, I found it difficult to adjust the Steelhead to get the autoformers to work smoothly- they were unbelievably alive at certain frequencies, but their performance across the spectrum was uneven).
I haven't experimented with the step up part of the Steelhead in some time, but may do so soon, because I think my line stage is heading to the shop and I may need to run the Steelhead as a linestage temporarily.
Thank you both.
I would like to hear the full-on Shindo system with the large field-coil speakers and gather than a trip to San Fran will be necessary. (i can think of worse towns to visit).
Best,
bill hart

Decisions, decisions, decisions. I went with the 401, Lignolab plinth, EMT 997 tonearm, and matching cartridges solution with Shindo platter, bearing and mat. I did not however compare them against the other options. I would have loved a Shindo 301 but it was outside my price point, however I am incredible satisfied with what I have and feel no desire to upgrade.

Barr

Hmmm...i have a good line on both an A90 and a SPU 90th. I'm new to the vinyl playback scene and haven't enough experience to know the sound characteristic differences between an SPU type cartridge (SPU 90th) and a non-SPU cartridge (A90).

I can pretty much get them both for about the same price, + or - a few hundred bucks so the price isn't a factor in selecting...I know one camp is big on SPU's and the Shindo was seemingly made for them but I'll likely be getting an SUT eventually anyway and the A90 seems to work well with the Shindo and has some calling it their "desert island" cartridge.

Countingbackwards, have you had any experience with SPU type cartridges? I'd be interested to hear the differences between those type cartridges and your A90 if so.

Barr, yes...decisions, decisions...i finally decided on the tonearm...a Schick with upgraded FinewireC37 cryo'd with Eichmann bullets. Now the cartridge is my next thought provoker.

Yes, I've had them for a few months. I've been reticent to write a review because they have taken such an incredibly long time to break in - and I'm still not even sure they are there yet. They do sound incredible. I won't hijack this thread - give me a couple of days and I'll get pics and a wee bit of a review on a new post.

Doug

FWIW, and I am not trying to hijack here either, my line stage is definitely bad, going back to Vlad, so this morning I ran the Steelhead straight in and decided to experiment with loading, same experience as 4 years ago- at 100 ohms, the Airtight sounds great in the middle, but lacks heft in the bottom. the Manley allows a lot of adjusments, easily. I wound up going back to the MM side, without the step-up, using NOS tubes.
Not sure if this bears on your Shindo experience with respect to SUT choices, I guess it is cartridge and system dependent but since you guys seem to be using SUTs, I'd be curious about the differences you hear.
Best,
Bill Hart

I haven't to my knowledge heard the SPU in any of it's forms - my local Shindo dealer doesn't tend to use Shindo turntables or speakers, instead using Brinkmann and Clearaudio tables usually with EMT cartridges. But even then...while their tables always sound good, I haven't even heard the EMT in a familiar enough system to compare it to my A90.

What I can say, is that the A90 is a much better match to my system than was the Benz Ruby I had before (and concurrently for a short while) - the latter, while still a great cart, needs a step up to sound properly balanced into the Shindo phono stage, while the A90 certainly does not.

Since so few SPU's are made for modern tone arms, and no A90's were made for the "pickup head" tone arms, it's probably a comparison that will be hard to come by.

Well I just picked up a Goldbug Ms. Brier that was given a full top line refresh by Soundsmith. I'm still interested in going the SPU route as well but had to pull the trigger on this rare gem that many have put on their all-time favorites list. Gotta find a headshell now, thinking i'll probably go with the Yamamoto HS-1As.

Good call. I have one of them somewhere...LOL.

The Goldbug or the Yamamoto?

Anyway just another calculation to consider when choosing the headshell...can't be too heavy or too light and posses as little resonant property as possible...now I know why a lot of people shy away from vinyl, theres a lot of complexity to consider in the setup...it's a part time job figuring all this stuff out.

LOL - agreed! I have a Yammy. Good shell, Herr Schick likes them too.

BTW - which Woodsong are you going with? They are very nice, but very spendy!

Chris found an amazing piece of walnut that we'll be wrapping up in. I was almost settled on going with a Lignolab setup but the appearance just didn't do it for me and it's just as expensive if not more so...Chris' work looks fantastic and I'm sure it'll be as good or better.

Did you also have the HS-1Sa or did you go with another version?

When i get this all built out and you're in town for a work meeting you'll have to check out the setup.

HS-1A with Oyaide HSR-AG leads.

Ok now that's done, what record weights are people using and/or what is the ideal weight for a Garrard 301 original grease bearing?

How can you resist the look of the Thorens?

But, this looks good too and is a good value - TTClassic, Weight Style (1LB/454 Grams) Aluminum

Not sure if you can view the Lenco forum market place but there's a guy in uk making beautiful record weight in various exotic wood and slate combination.


http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=6467.0

I have the shinny Thorens weight too but I prefer the Kingswood/slate weight on my Garrard.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52...woodslate4.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a52...2armnight2.jpg

Funny, I find that the use of my Clearaudio Twister record weight actually takes away from the sound on my Lenco table, so I never use it.

Agree with Mikeyc. I have three record weights to choose from at home and in the end like the Garrard best sans weight. However I do add a weight when the TT is off for purely cosmetic purposes.

Mikeyc / Sibelius

Are there any particular mats that your guys are using which seems to obviate the need for a record weight?

Also, those of you who have Garrard turntables, do you use the little rubber washers between the actual turntable and your various plinths ? (I'm currently building a plywood plinth - and not sure if I mount the 401 directly to the wood or use the rubber washers inbetween)

Cool, Jaspert. How do you like your Apparition? I have one on my 401, and am quite fond of it.

A lot of debate on this over time. General consensus is use the washers.

My rubber washers were perished when I got the decks, and Perfect Sounds washers were a bit pricey for, errr...washers. I ended up using fibre plumbing washers, to good effect.

A lot of debate over mats as well, since the aluminium platters are somewhat bell-like at times. I have found that a 3mm cork under-mat (found at a crafts store) with a sorbethane mat works very well. Much better than with the stock mat wiht/without cork. Didnt bust the bank either!

all the subtle little tweaks add up to the final outcome. For the mats has anyone ever tried damping material like dynamat or 3M?

I think I recall that being discussed either on VA or VE Garrard forum, with not so good results. You may want do do a search cuz I could be way off base.

I know it is a popular tweak for under certain Thorens' chassis.

I have also heard the honeycomb like foam throw-carpet non-slip underlay works, but have not tried that!

Big fan of Apparition. Bargain!

Yes, like Sebelius I've tried probably half a dozen weights, including some very expensive ones made out of ebony and aluminum and they never did make any noticeable improvement in the sound. It may have something to do with my mat, which is by Oracle. Its quite heavy and dense, made out of methacrylate which resembles a very dense acrylic. Its permanently glued to the platter and works quite well in my system.

Interesting difference of opinion on the weights. I'm sure i can find someone to lend me one and then see for myself if any difference or not. Since I'm still learning about all of this, can someone explain the difference between a suspended and non-suspended turntable design and which camp the Garrard 301 falls into?

Suspended has springs, air or some sort of compliant "suspension" the deck rides on - like a LP12, SME 20/12, VPI HRX, etc.

Strictly speaking, the Garrard is not a supsended deck design, since the motor unit itself is not wedded to specifice plinth design which use a suspension, as the decks mentioned above are. Generally, Garrards preform better on a high-mass and solid plinth design, so non-suspended.

Historically, Garrards were recommended to be used on a spring mounted platform by Garrard, since that was the design of the day back when. However, this caused a lot of the rumble issues that became part of the basis around the negative perception of idler decks. A modern exception to what I state is the Loricraft style plinth, which has a mounting platform which rests on squash balls as isolation and that you could argue is truly a suspended design and has a good reputation for working well.


Again, however, these are plinth designs and not the Garrard itself.

Capiche? ;-)

Stephen,
Are you serious ?
You're fond of this table. What's happening ?

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

I thought you're done with upgrading? What's happening?

talk about a cliffhanger...what's with the change in direction on the Shindo 301 Stephen?