Single Ended to Balanced Cables
 

I have QX-5 Twenty and AX-5 Twenty. Between the two units is single ended interconnect. I am told balanced is the way to go.

Has anyone made the change from single ended to balanced cables and if so, could you describe the change in sound? Thank you.

For the cost of a pair of XLR cables, you should try it for yourself and see which you like better.

Some folks say single ended sounds better sometimes.

You can get some Mogami 2549 XLR cables made by Redco, not expensive, but very good cable. If you like the sound of balanced connection better, you can go down the rabbit hole of "better" (read: more expensive) balanced cable.

Unless you use the same cable for both balance and single ended interconnects, it is not really a fair comparison.

I have always felt that balanced cables sound quieter in my system. But I think it depends on whether your gear is truly balanced or not. My gear is truly balanced and balanced cables sound better to me.

You can make unbalanced cables using any balanced cable if you feel the cable itself makes a difference.

Not all single ended cables can be made into truly balanced cables from what I was told. Sure you can take the RCA connectors off and slap on a pair of XLRs but you might not get a truly balanced cable.

That's true, for example a coaxial single ended cable cannot be made into a balanced cable since it only has two conductors. On the other hand a balanced cable (which has to have at least three conductors) can be made into a single ended cable by combining some conductors.

I believe most Ayre gear is fully balanced internally, a premium design with double the components vs. single ended. So if you use a single ended cable to communicate with a fully balanced unit, the single ended signal will be converted to balanced internally before it's processed (and converted to single ended prior to output on single ended cable) - unnecessary step(s) if you use balanced interconnects. The reverse is also true of other manufacturers who offer balanced connections into units that are not fully balanced internally. This is one reason why manufacturers (other than for long cable runs, which favor balanced) may favor one interconnect implementation over the other.

What would be the benefit of balancing the unbalanced line at the input of the next stage? The idea is to use a balanced line from the source output to the next stage input so it is balanced all the way. You're trying to keep the path balanced from output to input to avoid hum and RF being induced in the cable. If the signal is unbalanced at the source output and using unbalanced cable to the next stage input, what's the point of turning it into a balanced signal once it's in there?

If both components are fully balanced internally, there is no point in using an unbalanced IC (and forcing each component to do an internal conversion). Likewise, if both components are single ended internally, there is no point in using a balanced cable to connect them (unless there is an overriding need to take advantage of a balanced cable's noise cancellation properties over a long cable run). This was the point I was trying to make.

I understand. Blackstone's original question is whether to use unbalanced or balanced interconnects and he's using unbalanced now.

It seems he should be using balanced. Thanks for clarifying how Ayre handles it's inputs.

I went back and forth several times with balanced vs unbalanced connections trying to hear a difference on my MC1201's earlier this year. It wasn't a dramatic change but I found myself preferring the balanced connection. The specs say it's 4db quieter with the balanced connection so that may have something to do with my findings.

I’ve auditioned both balanced and unbalanced interconnects of the same brand and model between my fully balanced ARC preamp and Ayre amps. There’s is no contest in my system, as the balanced interconnects won hands down. However, YMMV, so it’s best to do a home audition with both unbalanced and balanced cables the same make and model in your own system and you be the judge of what sound best.

Helpful responses all. Thanks guys. I just wanted some opinions.

I have the same components for now and used the AQ WEL balanced. I used the Niagara balanced for a year or so. I had the single ended in too and it wasn't even close. The noise floor dropped big time and everything was better in balanced mode. It was also a bit louder, so I had to turn it down when in balanced mode. Not scientific, but it didn't need to be as the ears said it all and pretty quickly.

Ayre is all dual differentially balanced adn that's why it sounds best in balance mode. There is a reason the dealers show it this way too.

This seems to be the consensus opinion. I’m gonna give it a shot. It sounds good right now so reluctant to tamper with it but less noise is always a good thing.

Hey Blackstone,

There's a few reasons we use balanced over single-ended in Ayre's products. As mentioned, we are fully balanced in every portion of the circuit (we're one of the few companies that do not simply offer globally balanced units, but are also locally balanced in every stage). This helps the circuit reject generated noise from RFI, etc., just as balanced cables are better at rejecting external noise than single-ended cables. If you have unbalanced circuitry anywhere in the system, you have a vulnerability to external noise, so you really want to make sure if your balanced products are truly balanced for this reason, even at the power supply.

We pretty much exclusively listen to our products in balanced mode for this reason when dialing everything in, so if you want what we feel is the best experience with Ayre products, you'll definitely want to put an XLR between them.

Ryan,

Can you comment on the reason Ayre is one of the few companies that doesn't use locking XLR female jacks? Did Charley just find your current one sounds better, or is it the more pragmatic reason that there wouldn't be room on the back panel for jacks with the lock tabs?

That's actually kind of a funny story. We actually DID use locking female RCA jacks...the same ones that most companies use. But once they arrive, we modified them by cutting the chassis ground leg off of them and pull the locking mechanism out of them...a process that takes a lot of man hours to do.

The reason why we do this though may surprise you. First, the chassis ground path on the metal-faced versions is pretty easy to understand why it was undesirable to use stock. Linking your signal ground right to the chassis as it's bathing in neighboring component's RF fields isn't what you'd want. Having a short ground path there is nice for passing some tests, but terrible for the sound.

The locking pin was another matter entirely. Space is typically not an issue for us...since we're designing the components, we can make them about any size we want and high end Audio isn't about having 75 inputs, just making the fewer inputs a lot better. The issue is that these mechanisms are made pretty much 100% steel with a nickel plating that is all magnetic. The Ayre gear is sensitive enough that it picks up ferrous materials near the signal path, creating a significant negative sound impact. We first discovered this when using ferrite beads...they'd sound great at first, making us want to use more and more, but learned that after a few months/years in the system, really trashed the sound until you replaced them or, better yet, just removed them to avoid knowing that the sound is slowly degrading constantly.

They (Gary Mulder, our current domestic Sales Manager and Charley) later experimented with ferrous materials near the XLR lines and could hear the sound change significantly (for the worse) when such metals were near the signal path. That led to other tests what showed the same in-circuit. For this reason, we're really neurotic about avoiding such materials. All of our wire connectors are custom-made with materials that are non-ferrous, our capacitors and resistors are also custom-made for Ayre to avoid steel and nickel. This means that the components we use have to be hand-made instead of automated in their construction and we're always having to stay ahead on lead times, etc. since they're never stocked parts...nobody else that our vendors use request such parts. We then have the components further treated in other ways that aren't really relevant here that we've found improve the sound. Every screw is stainless or brass, the chassis is aluminum, and even the brackets are stainless steel. Of course stainless is slightly magnetic, but vastly better than steel, nickel, etc. Ultimately, the only real magnetic piece left is the transformer, which there's little we can do about that!

It's a ton of work and expense to deal with, but it's a very small part of what makes the Ayre products sound like they do. I don't mind sharing little secrets like this, as for most companies the amount of work for the payoff would seem insane to go through, so I doubt many are going to use this. I hope that explains in a very long way why we don't use such mechanisms. Also, we've never experienced an XLR connector just spontaneously getting loose without a cable end needing to get replaced anyway...if they can just fall out without being touched, you're going to want to replace the female cable end. Leaving it alone and relying on the mechanism to hold it in place just means that you're likely not getting much of an airtight connection between the surfaces, leading to oxidation over time of the mating surfaces and degrading sound over time. This can happen when you're unplugging or plugging in regularly. You really want a tight connection to minimize the amount of air getting between the surfaces.

Hope that helps!

Wow, thanks!!

I knew there was a reason but always got so engrossed in other topics when I had a chance to talk to Charley I never remembered to ask. :D

3d parts
 

Ryan - amazing attention to detail! Impressive.

This might be old news for you, but have you looked into printing the XLR bodies?
I work in a small tech company and we have amazing parts printed regularly for not much money. Materials choices keep growing as well.
Of course you would need the full 3D solid models.

We haven't thought about it, but that's a great idea. I design all the chassis work in SolidWorks as it is, so I have a model of every component we use in our units. I'll have to look into it!

Going balanced was a big improvement for me.

GrubTheHedgehog... Welcome to AA! :wave:

Thank you kind sir. I have been lurking too long. I am looking forward to getting to know you all better.

My son (Autistic) is a jr at Penn College of Tech. He's in a manufacturing major, but will specialize in 3D printing. He is always on the one I got him making models. The materials they can spool now is just amazing. Even some PLC and ABS with carbon imbedded. There are other forms of 3D printing now that use metals and don't use spools at all, but that's not something you will do in house yet, lol.

The biggest thing is that in order to do it properly you need a very high Rez printer and they still aren't 'inexpensive". JMHO

Single Ended to Balanced Cables
 

I recently tried a balanced cable myself after using AX-5 and QX-5 with single ended for a few years. The reason iI stayed single ended is that going balanced would mean significant investment in upgrading my already very good single ended cable.



Immediately there was a about a 4.5 db or three AX-5 volume increment difference between the two cables, with the balanced being louder. However it was not just louder. I could not achieve the same result as the balanced bringing the single ended cable up to match. The balanced just sounded fuller. The bass was more palpable but the tonal balance did not change or darken. Instruments in the midrange, like guitars that were previously more buried in the mix became more easily discernible. There was more slam. There was more of everything. I got more stage depth, not so much widening. On live recordings, I felt like I was hearing the same performance but I got better seats! Music was just more in my room.



Female vocals became more focused and intense. Without loosing any detail (actually enhancing slightly) while loosing a little fatiguing edge



The single ended cable sounded a bit anemic in comparison, but still good. Balanced was a solid step in the right direction to be sure. It wasn’t earth shattering, but it was undeniably better in all respects.



It was one of those upgrades that makes you want to run through your whole catalog of music again to pick out the new details.

That the best part of listening for me. It's really rare to find something that makes something sound "twice as good", but those incremental bumps add up to something rather spectacular. Getting to discover your music all over again makes listening fun.

Use the same brand and model of interconnect (balanced and unbalanced) for a fair comparison. Generally balanced operation tends to be a bit quieter and have greater gain (inherent in the electronics design) which often translates to slightly better bass control and dynamics. I've also experienced a bit of improvement in midrange "body" using balanced connections vs. unbalanced with the same gear. This tends to make the highs a bit less strident too. These effects are subtle (usually) but can eek the last little bit of smoothness out of a system (sometimes).

I'm not sure these comparisons are entirely without bias. So you know, I own highly respected conrad-johnson equipment, all unbalanced. Not sure how you do these comparisons in an unbiased way. Comparing the outputs of well designed balanced equipment with it's own unbalanced outputs should show a better result from the primary balanced outputs. Seems to me that well designed single ended equipment works best with RCA cables, balanced equipment with balanced cables.

Not bias, per se. The question was what works best with Ayre Gear. You can’t draw any conclusions about other gear.

Agree... my point is; as Ayre is designed for balanced operation, why even consider using SE cables where there's the option of balanced.
Not that anyone cares but I use the SE output from the QB9 with good results as it's my only option. Guess that's why it's there. Great DAC. Wish it did HDCD.
Best,

We wouldn't post if we didn't care Coppy. It's all good and you are right. I used a single ended MIT 360 shotgun from years back if I recall when I first got my Ayre AX7e and it sounded awesome. I then saved and got a pair of Audioquest Niagara balance and it opened a new world (selling the Niagara as I went to the AQ WEL when I got the AX5/20). The WEL cable on the AX5/20 is the best I've ever heard the amp sound. Takes it to near reference heights and I like a lot of what it does better than the stereo ref amp and the KX5 pre (or whatever the nomenclature is). It's a damn great integrated. ;)

Single Ended to Balanced Cables
 

I tried a new cable. Audio Bliss! Wider stage! Cavernous reverbs! Less noise.

From my conversations with Ralph Karsten at Atmasphere, Balanced interconnects are less likely to show effects of cable design. One of the most positive effects is that you don't have to spend a fortune on interconnects. I bought a 25 foot XLR-XLR cable from him, and haven't looked back.
Bob

I continue to be amazed about how much confusion (and therefore misinformation) surrounds the “single ended vs balanced cable” discussions I see on line. In summary:

• XLR inputs / outputs do not necessarily mean the associated circuit is balanced.
  
• A “balanced” designation does not necessarily mean the associated circuit is balanced “to the spec”.
  
• XLR terminations do not necessarily mean the associated cable is balanced “to the spec”.
  
• If the output circuit is balanced “to the spec”, the input circuit is balanced “to the spec”, and the associated cable is balanced “to the spec”, the impact of the cable itself is significantly reduced.
  
• If the output circuit is balanced “to the spec”, and the input circuit is balanced “to the spec”, a cable that is is balanced “to the spec” will generally yield preferred results over a single ended option.

Fortunately we’re talking Ayre, which is balanced “to the spec”, and therefore a balanced cable - any balanced cable - will yield preferred results over a single ended alternative.

The balanced cable will yield preferred results over a a singled ended cable at the same performance level. So Transparent Reference Balanced cable should be better than a Transparent Reference Cable that is single ended with Ayre gear. But if you drop down a level to balanced Ultra, going from an older single ended Reference to their newest Balanced Ultra (Gen 5) was almost a draw, with the balanced Ultra winning by a small margin, but going from single ended Reference to impedance matched Balanced Reference Gen 5 was a HUGE improvement with QX-5 and AX-5 in every way. You can’t just go from single ended to balanced and expect a significant improvement unless you are getting a better cable than what you have.

I totally disagree with the notion that balanced operation makes cables less important. They are essential in my opinion.

nrenter... Welcome to AA! :wave:

We shall agree to disagree. The balanced spec was designed to minimize the affect of the cable. What you are hearing is induced coloration due to the single ended cable, which you may prefer.