Component Isolation

[lowens]

Yes I know this is a touchy subject, but I still think it has merit.
I currently have my components sitting on/within a custom walnut cabinet, with 2 sliding doors. The top is solid walnut, the internal shelves are plywood veneer.

My questions to Shindo owners:
I have heard that shindo amps/preamps prefer a wood surface to sit on, but have heard conflicting experience on the effectiveness of isolation platforms and footers.
Where do your components reside? , what rack/shelf are you using? What isolation have you tried with your Shindo pieces, footers, platforms?
What has worked for you? , what has not?

[sibelius]

I have a custom made rack by Steve Blinn (Solid Maple shelving on CNC machined aircraft aluminum frame). While I've tried some other isolation products (Walker Audio , Herbies, etc..) I find I like the gear sitting directly on the wood rack. Most of my audio tweaks I've purchased over the years are either sold or sitting in a storage box. While the rack was not cheap ($5K) I think a solid rack is a good investment.

[TommyC]

I believe Mr. Shindo voices his gears on thick maple shelf. You can't go wrong with wooden shelf.

[pitch perfect]

I believe Mr. Shindo voices his gears on thick maple shelf. You can't go wrong with wooden shelf.

Hi Tommy, I don't believe this to be the case regarding what Ken uses.

Stacked plywoods will sound better than a single piece of dense maple, from my experience.

-M

[TommyC]

Hi Tommy, I don't believe this to be the case regarding what Ken uses.

Stacked plywoods will sound better than a single piece of dense maple, from my experience.

-M

I swear I read that online, somewhere. Goes to show you can't trust anything you read online :D

[pitch perfect]

I swear I read that online, somewhere. Goes to show you can't trust anything you read online :D

Indeed. :yes:

Didn't mean to be so blunt in my reply--

To expound on this, the only equipment support guaranteed to sound great with Shindo is the LignoLab equipment support and the Box Furniture components.. Others may work well and sound good, of course. The Box, in particular does not cost much - relatively speaking - and is sturdy and sonically sound.

The LignoLab is a revelation, and I've recommended it to customers, instead of upgrading a preamp or amp. It's that dramatic.


-M

[lowens]

Matt - what is your take on using aftermarket footers to replace the stock rubber feet on shindo gear.

shindo seems to use regular rubber feet that have limited resonance control ability. Perhaps using herbie tender feet would help?

[pitch perfect]

Matt - what is your take on using aftermarket footers to replace the stock rubber feet on shindo gear.

shindo seems to use regular rubber feet that have limited resonance control ability. Perhaps using herbie tender feet would help?

Hey Larry,

As you know, Shindo chooses all the components in the circuit for a sonic reason.

Which leads me to the chassis design - It's an integral part of the sound. It has been thoroughly thought through, with separate chambers containing various areas of the circuit. I always recommend the gear sits direct on a solid, stable surface using the stock footers. :yes:

-M

[jazzhead]

Hi Guys,
I am a great believer in Isolation. Try a Stillpoint Component stand below your gear and I am sure you will see the light :music:

[lowens]

Hi Matt:

I have no doubt that Ken Shindo is a master at circuit design and layout using various chambers to reach his goal. But if you look at his footers, they
certainly don’t appear to be anything special. A well thought out chassis design will help, but perhaps the footers can be improved on to enrich the sound, not harm it's sonic structure in anyway.
Aftermarket footer manufacturers claim that "they don't color the music or change the tone/harmonics, they reduce distortions caused by micro-vibrations, resulting in a truer rendering of the music, more faithful to the components' intent"
Also, what is your take on Silent Running Audio (SRA) & HRS isolation platforms. I have seen Shindo equipment utilize these many times to great effect.

[pitch perfect]

Hi Matt:

I have no doubt that Ken Shindo is a master at circuit design and layout using various chambers to reach his goal. But if you look at his footers, they
certainly don’t appear to be anything special.

The same can be said for the basic a/c cords that are included with the Shindo products. They are all designed for the equipment. Leave well enough alone, from my experience.

Also, what is your take on Silent Running Audio (SRA) & HRS isolation platforms. I have seen Shindo equipment utilize these many times to great effect.

These are the antithesis of what I recommend. The SRA stands have never helped Shindo products truly be what they can be. :no: See other threads to see what equipment supports, I recommend, that are ideal for Shindo.

Best,
-M

[pitch perfect]

Aftermarket footer manufacturers claim that "they don't color the music or change the tone/harmonics, they reduce distortions caused by micro-vibrations, resulting in a truer rendering of the music, more faithful to the components' intent"

Pure BS. As if footer manufacturers would dare market themselves as changing the sound? Of course they change the sound. You are EQ'ing the sound... Why else use them? :nono:

Folks need to stop listening with their eyes.. There is a reason for every material and component that Shindo is using. :yes:

It's not necessary to spend money on these sort of tweaks..... You should be thanking me. :yes: :D

-M

[Still-One]

Pure BS. As if footer manufacturers would dare market themselves as changing the sound? Of course they change the sound. You are EQ'ing the sound... Why else use them? :nono:

Folks need to stop listening with their eyes.. There is a reason for every material and component that Shindo is using. :yes:

I'm telling you not to waste your money on these things. You should be thanking me. :yes: :D

-M
Of course everything can change the sound in a system. If you buy into what Shindo is selling and how his gear is voiced/colored/pick your term, then why would you want to swap out power cords, roll tubes, add isolation etc. Just stick it in your rack and you have found Valhalla. It is just that most people in this crazy hobby want to tailor the sound to what they want to hear, not what someone else likes. So we tweak.

Jim

[lowens]

Matt:

Thanks for your insight. Given your thoughts what does the LingoLab equipment support do? If it causes such an improvement in the sound of ones system, then surely it is acting as some kind of isolation enhancement device? I see it has these big, round feet to support the rack.

P.S. I am not a tweeker, I generally let things be and have never really utilized aftermarket footers, spikes or anything. But I have often wondered.

[TommyC]

From Matt's posts, my impression is that an aftermarket tweak can change the sound, but not improve it.

[Shindoug]

I guess the difficulty with equipment isolation is that there is little uniformity between the environments in which we place our systems, so we are all going to get slightly different results from different isolation devices. I agree that all isolation devices are probably acting as equalization products – but in some cases a particular equalization may be beneficial in compensating for an environmental deficiency and may consequently appear to “improve” the sound. So there will always be differences of opinion here. Presumably the better the equipment rack is at eliminating the environmental differences the more uniform our results will be. To that end I’m sure we’d all be getting very similar results if we all had the amazing Lingo Labs racks (I can’t imagine how much they cost – perhaps we could get a bulk discount if we all ordered one) Until then various “magic” isolation gizmos will work for some but not for others. In my system – spikes under my turntable platform sound horrible but Herbies tender feet sound fantastic – unfortunately all that speaks to is the deficiencies of my rack rather than the superiority of Herbies feet.

Doug

[Masterlu]

Plink... Welcome! :wave:

[pitch perfect]

Matt:

Thanks for your insight. Given your thoughts what does the LingoLab equipment support do? If it causes such an improvement in the sound of ones system, then surely it is acting as some kind of isolation enhancement device? I see it has these big, round feet to support the rack.

P.S. I am not a tweeker, I generally let things be and have never really utilized aftermarket footers, spikes or anything. But I have often wondered.

Hi Larry,

The footers, in conjunction with the stand, do a great job at isolating the equipment from the environment, down to about 3Hz from my understanding. It's as if the equipment support is literally 'floating'. It sways slowly and gently if pushed, for example, but is solid in normal use. I provide one of three spring compression ratios to provide proper resistance for a range of weight variations.

-Matt

[Shindoug]

Interesting, I didn't know one could purchase the LingoLab footers separately. I wonder if one could modify a box furniture rack to accept these: adding some weight to the lower shelf to get appropriate mass. This might make for a workable, relatively cheaper solution than getting the whole LingoLab rack. Anyone ever looked into that?

Doug

[pitch perfect]

Interesting, I didn't know one could purchase the LingoLab footers separately. I wonder if one could modify a box furniture rack to accept these: adding some weight to the lower shelf to get appropriate mass. This might make for a workable, relatively cheaper solution than getting the whole LingoLab rack. Anyone ever looked into that?

Doug

The special footers plus a double wide three shelf Sapele finished Box rack are only about $1,800 less than the price of a LignoLab in Birch finish (comes in Walnut and Birch & Walnut), so it's really not cheaper.

If you are going to 'do it' at this level, you go all the way...

-Matt

[lowens]

Hi Matt:

What isolation other than a lingolab or box furniture stand do you recommend? and how much are the linolab feet?

I value your thoughts as you are the expert.

[pitch perfect]

Hi Matt:

What isolation other than a lingolab or box furniture stand do you recommend? and how much are the linolab feet?

I value your thoughts as you are the expert.

Thanks Larry - I'm far from an expert on many things in life - but I do know what sounds good. :D

Stands are tough, since there are so many of them - and aesthetics play a large part in peoples living spaces. This is why the BOX furniture integrates so well, since it's really pretty and the price is right.

In terms of other stands, I can't really think of too many others off hand, but stay away from: glass shelving, lots of metal, metallic and carbon fiber elements.

To name names, for example, I rather have a relatively humble 'salamander' designs component rack than a 'grand prix' audio rack.

-M

[TommyC]

Hi Matt,

What don't you like about carbon fiber isolation devices, just curious.

[Altec Green]

Thanks for the advise Matt.

In the past I have owned this rack; finite elemente pagode, silent running audio ohio class xl, critical mass systems, yamamoto, audiophile base.

Quadraspire sunoko vent is my current rack and they look humble compare to the previous rack I have but its better.

The Lignolab system is next on my radar.:thumbsup:

[lowens]

Hi Matt:

Thanks once agian for the advise. So I guess you are dead set against using aftermarket footers, cones or platforms (SRA/HRS come to mind) for shindo amps a preamps? No benefit whatsoever? Waste of money?

[TommyC]

Thanks for the advise Matt.

In the past I have owned this rack; finite elemente pagode, silent running audio ohio class xl, critical mass systems, yamamoto, audiophile base.

Quadraspire sunoko vent is my current rack and they look humble compare to the previous rack I have but its better.

The Lignolab system is next on my radar.:thumbsup:

This is very interesting. The racks you mentioned were a lot more expensive than the Quadraspire!

[Altec Green]

This is very interesting. The racks you mentioned were a lot more expensive than the Quadraspire!

Yes, seems unlikely but its true.:yes:

[Stercom]

I've tried all kinds of "tweaks" on my Shindo gear such as isolation feet, brass cones, Herbie's footers, etc. You can change the sound but it throws the system out of balance so you try to compensate for it by changing something else and suddenly you're back on the merry-go-round.......

[HNY]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but, hey, there's a lot of good information down in the bowels of this place!

I'm thinking of upgrading my equipment rack, and I'd be curious to hear from fellow forum-goers what they are currently using and what they have used in the past to house their Shindo gear. Most helpful of all would be opinions from those that have upgraded to something like a BOX or LignoLabs, and whether they feel the extra expense was justified.

I'm currently considering either a BOX rack on the high-end of the spectrum or something like a Yamamoto rack on the low-end of the spectrum (I have some Yammy gear to go along with my Shindo stuff, so both seem like logical starting points). The BOX certainly has that "stamp of approval" within the Shindo world that would give me piece of mind, but it is somewhat pricey. I haven't done any testing with various racks--they aren't exactly easy to "demo"--so I don't really have a good feeling as to where the sweet spot might be in the rack world for price and performance. So any help would be much appreciated.

[Freestone]

^^


I have. a Box. More practical and far better looking than lingolab. Needing those insulators depends on whether you will have a lot of floor vibration during your listening sessions.

Jules Coleman reviewed it with Shindo - and offline to me strongly recommended it.

It has a high WAF factor if that is relevant on your room.

[dirtbag]

I'm just in the process of renovating my Shindo room, and part of that includes a new equipment cabinet I built. Instead of explaining what I did I will post some pices next week when I start to install it. It is at the furniture finishers right now getting sprayed with lacquer.:banana:

[TommyC]

I'm just in the process of renovating my Shindo room, and part of that includes a new equipment cabinet I built. Instead of explaining what I did I will post some pices next week when I start to install it. It is at the furniture finishers right now getting sprayed with lacquer.:banana:

Can't wait for the pics :thumbsup:

[dirtbag]

Tommy,

You'll have to come over

[Cucumber_Jones]

Me to Dale. I cannot wait to see it. I can bring some vinyl this time!

[dirtbag]

Probably need another month or so to get it all back together.
Good thing NFL is over. Now I can get more done on the weekends.

[Freestone]

I'm just in the process of renovating my Shindo room, and part of that includes a new equipment cabinet I built. Instead of explaining what I did I will post some pices next week when I start to install it. It is at the furniture finishers right now getting sprayed with lacquer.:banana:

I know you did a great job.

[HNY]

I'm just in the process of renovating my Shindo room, and part of that includes a new equipment cabinet I built. Instead of explaining what I did I will post some pices next week when I start to install it. It is at the furniture finishers right now getting sprayed with lacquer.:banana:

Sounds very cool, looking forward to seeing pictures of it. My current stand is actually homemade, as well. Some beautiful TE for the legs, with glass shelves. Linseed oil and several coats of shellac for the finish, rubbed out to high gloss. I spend many a weekend putting it together, so it will definitely be repurposed elsewhere (perhaps for a secondary system), but as do I have more gear than shelves now (inevitable in this hobby, I guess), I'm looking for a single unit on which to rack everything. The BOX is certainly a nice looking piece that would work great in the space. Freestone, did you go through other racks on the same gear before, or it was part of the "Shindo package"?

[Freestone]

I was using built in benches for rack space while i awaited the Box rack.

[dirtbag]

The box rack is a beautiful unit How much are they worth ? Actually it would be quite simple for someone with good woodworking skills to duplicate. But by the time you buy good quality hardwoods to build one it most likely would not be much cheaper.

[HNY]

I was using built in benches for rack space while i awaited the Box rack.

Out of curiosity, did you notice any changes when you switched racks?

I read the Jules Coleman review a while back, and he seems to think it's well worth the investment. And though Mr. Coleman is one of the few audio reviewers who I think is a worthwhile read, I do, nonetheless, take all such things with a grain of salt...

The box rack is a beautiful unit How much are they worth ? Actually it would be quite simple for someone with good woodworking skills to duplicate. But by the time you buy good quality hardwoods to build one it most likely would not be much cheaper.

From the prices I've seen, they start around 3k for the single model, and move up to 4-5k for the D3S variants, which are the ones I'm looking at.

They are beautiful racks, very well made. Cost of materials alone has to be almost 1k, depending on the wood option. If I'm not mistaken, though, the shelves themselves are not hardwood, but a custom-made plywood with a hardwood frame (which seems to align with Matt's advice to use plywood rather than hardwood under Shindo equipment). Perhaps like speaker manufacturers, they use a proprietary "blend" of laminates and glues to get a particular sonic character. How much impact that might have, I haven't a clue. :)

[Freestone]

Yes I noticed a big difference but my bench was less stable and closer to the speakers.

Jules is sincere in his recommendation of the Box rack.

I do agree it is really nice quality and appearance.

The width is quite nice too. Plenty of room for me.

[dirtbag]

Perhaps like speaker manufacturers, they use a proprietary "blend" of laminates and glues to get a particular sonic character. How much impact that might have, I haven't a clue. :)
I'm just guessing but I really doubt they are laminating their own plywood.
At best they are using good quality plywood (possibly Baltic Birch which is a plywood made up of all hardwood veneers as opposed to softwood veneers) and then laying up their own face veneers. I really like their simple design and craftsmanship. If I wasn't building my own theirs would be on the top of my list.

[MyPal]

Check out Pro Audio Bono AVP Reference Platforms. :banana:

I am looking at a custom Reference AVP for the MT10. Bonded veneered birch & other tonewoods are their specialty. They do triple wrap feet which are much like Stillpoints.

[Freestone]

Jules' review:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0809/box_furniture_d3s.htm

Note the new one I have has additional vertical support in the middle.

They do talk about these being "tuned" to a certain frequency. I generally am skeptical but I respect Jules' opinion, it is a great rack and very high quality, and definitely sounds better than where I had it.

[miles]

The shelves are a laminate of five different woods and three different glues that are recessed and glued into the frame for increased rigidity.

BOX "Press"

Reviews from:

Dagogo
Enjoy The Music
Stereophile (read pdf)


Box Audio Rack Reviews (http://www.boxfurnitureco.com/press.html)

[TheMagus]

The shelves are a laminate of five different woods and three different glues that are recessed and glued into the frame for increased rigidity.

BOX "Press"

Reviews from:

Dagogo
Enjoy The Music
Stereophile (read pdf)


Box Audio Rack Reviews (http://www.boxfurnitureco.com/press.html)

Box furniture's racks are certainly easy on the eye. I'm just not sure about gluing the shelves to the frame. I'd have thought that it would be better to decouple the shelves from the frame.

[jondkaufman]

So here's the next Shindo upgrade question: given that we have upgraded speakers, electronics, source materials to a reasonable level, which "change" will be most beneficial in a Shindo-based system: the stand (and I am a Box fan, although I do not have it) or a power conditioner like the Mr. T? Stated differently - All things being equal, where is the next place to put the kid's inheritance? Jonathan K.

[countingbackwards]

With most equipment racks, what the designers are looking for is coupling, not decoupling/isolation.

What you're trying to do is give the vibrations inherent in the power transformers, spinning CD drives, etc. a route to escape through the rack, so that they don't get transmitted through the cables. Tube gear in particular seems to like to be coupled to the floor to allow energy to escape through the feet and onto the floor, rather than through the signal cables.

I've seen this demonstrated on solid state gear at RMAF - though of course you can't always believe what you see at a show!

So - the Box racks seem to me to be a perfect design for tube gear. What I'm less sure about us their efficiency with turntables - particularly the non-suspended type of tables, which I would think need isolation and not coupling.

[NeilNZ]

All things being equal, where is the next place to put the kid's inheritance? Jonathan K.

If it was me I would invest in a Lignolab support with the Dampers. They really are essential. I was once told by someone that they would rather have an Aurieges and a Montille on a Lignolab, than a Petrus and Lafon 300B Limiteds on anything else.

Failing that, the Box Racks are excellent value for money compared with some of the audiophile bling out there, and they perform very well.

[TheMagus]

With most equipment racks, what the designers are looking for is coupling, not decoupling/isolation.

What you're trying to do is give the vibrations inherent in the power transformers, spinning CD drives, etc. a route to escape through the rack, so that they don't get transmitted through the cables. Tube gear in particular seems to like to be coupled to the floor to allow energy to escape through the feet and onto the floor, rather than through the signal cables.

I've seen this demonstrated on solid state gear at RMAF - though of course you can't always believe what you see at a show!

So - the Box racks seem to me to be a perfect design for tube gear. What I'm less sure about us their efficiency with turntables - particularly the non-suspended type of tables, which I would think need isolation and not coupling.

Yes, but the REALLY clever designers are looking to float and decouple each platform. And believe me, they are out there.

[kev313]

If it was me I would invest in a Lignolab support with the Dampers. They really are essential. I was once told by someone that they would rather have an Aurieges and a Montille on a Lignolab, than a Petrus and Lafon 300B Limiteds on anything else.

Failing that, the Box Racks are excellent value for money compared with some of the audiophile bling out there, and they perform very well.

Neil, I know those are nice racks, but that guy was crazy.

[Freestone]

Neil, I know those are nice racks, but that guy was crazy.

+1

[NeilNZ]

You wouldn't say that if you knew who it was! And I'm not really prepared to disclose it either. Suffice to say they have extensive experience with Shindo gear...

[kev313]

You wouldn't say that if you knew who it was! And I'm not really prepared to disclose it either. Suffice to say they have extensive experience with Shindo gear...

Im looking at your Beaker and I've got a pretty good idea.

[jondkaufman]

To followup on my question - within a Shindo-based system and sticking to about the same $$$ outlay - which additional element, the stand/rack (whether wood, isolating, floating, decoupling, etc.) or auxillaries (i.e., Mr. T) will have the most impact or tuning on the Shindo System...This question may fit better under the Upgrade thread, but it also seems pertinent here under Component Isolation...For example: Would a comparable size Box Furniture rack "add more" than a Mr. T and a bamboo Quadra spire (for instance). Without getting into which is the "best" rack, the question involves value-added up the chain, after one has taken relative care of the fundamentals...Best, jdk

[TheMagus]

To followup on my question - within a Shindo-based system and sticking to about the same $$$ outlay - which additional element, the stand/rack (whether wood, isolating, floating, decoupling, etc.) or auxillaries (i.e., Mr. T) will have the most impact or tuning on the Shindo System...This question may fit better under the Upgrade thread, but it also seems pertinent here under Component Isolation...For example: Would a comparable size Box Furniture rack "add more" than a Mr. T and a bamboo Quadra spire (for instance). Without getting into which is the "best" rack, the question involves value-added up the chain, after one has taken relative care of the fundamentals...Best, jdk

That will depend on what is the weakest link in your audio chain (power or component isolation). Without doing a comparative analysis of both possible upgrades, in your system, there's no definitive way of knowing.

[fjn04]

I think w/ PC's, it depends on your current power situation. So someone w/ good clean power and dedicated lines may not benefit at all, or as much...!

[Seemore]

My first posting . . . I gave up on footers and many accessories when I went over to Shindo equipment and started simplifying. My Vosne Romanee and Haut Brion sit on the original footers on a Finite Elemente Pagode rack with good success. The HB has never sat level on anything and I have to insert a piece of folded thick paper stock under the right rear footer to level it. Of course, you have to use the right brand and weight of audiophile approved paper folded just so, but it works out fine in the end.

[dirtbag]

I think w/ PC's, it depends on your current power situation. So someone w/ good clean power and dedicated lines may not benefit at all, or as much...!
But who has good clean power on a consistent basis? Mine always sounds better at 2:00 in the morning.

[Volks]

My first posting . . . I gave up on footers and many accessories when I went over to Shindo equipment and started simplifying. My Vosne Romanee and Haut Brion sit on the original footers on a Finite Elemente Pagode rack with good success. The HB has never sat level on anything and I have to insert a piece of folded thick paper stock under the right rear footer to level it. Of course, you have to use the right brand and weight of audiophile approved paper folded just so, but it works out fine in the end.



Welcome Seemore:thumbsup:

[FranklinLG]

Welcome Seemore!

[Masterlu]

Seemore... Welcome! :wave:

[Seemore]

Thank you friends! I discovered Shindo gear about 7 years ago and recently found this forum. I have been regularly lurking and the component isolation thread made me decided to register.

I know it seems ridiculous to level expensive gear with a piece of paper, but I think that it goes to show that you don't need to blow a lot of money on isolation if you have a good gear and rack to set it upon, especially if it is Shindo gear.

[fjn04]

"But who has good clean power on a consistent basis? Mine always sounds better at 2:00 in the morning. "

Absolutely see your point, likely no one. But this guy is weighing the option of which choice is more valuable to address. I think the rack is a better bet. I think the PLC importance greatly depends on what you are starting with. I have only tried one in my Shindo setup, and it was not better in all areas. There were trade-offs. I decided to sit tight on that for now. I will explore again in the near future though. Dedicated lines MAY be a more logical starting point. If dedicated lines aren't feasible, then maybe a PLC becomes more of a necessity.

[jdandy]

Seemore.......Welcome to Audio Aficionado. :wave:

[Seemore]

Why thank you very much.