The LP advantage....

[Jerome W]

Currently listening to a vinyl on my system, I could not resist to copy and paste the introduction of Stereophile's review of the Brinkmann TT :

"I won't debate here how to make a turntable's platter go around. Choose your favorite: belt vs direct drive, idler wheel vs belt, spring-windup vs wind power, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to debate. Each of these technologies has its pluses and minuses, but none can produce CD's accuracy of speed and inherent freedom from wow and flutter.
Despite that, you'll never convince me that CDs produce music that sounds better or more lifelike than LPs, or that CDs even come close to communicating music's ability to evoke emotions from listeners, or the sensation that you've been transported to the concert hall, or that the musicians are in your room performing for you. They just don't.

Play the best CDs for an hour and convince yourself that the technology has gotten really good—and it has—then play an LP on even a modestly priced turntable, and the sensations of quiet, relaxation, and relief are profound. As one friend who hadn't heard vinyl in years said when he heard The Clash on my turntable, "That's the sound I've been missing!" His decision was made in an instant: He got rid of most of his CDs and replaced them with the LPs he'd ditched when he went digital."

We live in an "analog world".
Don't want to start a new debate here, but I just can't understand how many people can prefer the sound of digital playback over the "dark side"....:scratch2:

[jdandy]

Don't want to start a new debate here, but I just can't understand how many people can prefer the sound of digital playback over the "dark side"....:scratch2:

Jérôme.......Nice way to NOT start a new debate. :D

I like both sources, but prefer digital when it is done right. And let me add, the MCD1100 is digital done right. :thumbsup:

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......Nice way to NOT start a new debate. :D

I like both sources, but prefer digital when it is done right. And let me add, the MCD1100 is digital done right. :thumbsup:

:roflmao: : I was waiting for you Dan ! :D
Indeed, that was not to create a debate, I posted in the analog forum : this was for Stephen, Dave, Bill.... ! You did not have to read :D ! Just kidding....I know that you read everything !

[Alberto]

I find it very unfortunate, but that the audio technologies I find most practical and convenient (i.e. digital and transistors) are much less satisfying to me than the impractical and inconvenient ones (i.e. vinyl and tubes.)

Vinyl - aside from all the proper set-up, issues has wear and tear issues for both the cartridge and - to a lesser extent - the LPs.

Tubes are either breaking in or slowly "dying" - and the specter of random tube failure is always around the corner. There is also the heat issue.

But nothing gets me lost in delicious music as much as an LP played through a all-tube system. So it's all worthwhile in the end.

Alberto

[Jerome W]

I find it very unfortunate, but that the audio technologies I find most practical and convenient (i.e. digital and transistors) are much less satisfying to me than the impractical and inconvenient ones (i.e. vinyl and tubes.)

Vinyl - aside from all the proper set-up, issues has wear and tear issues for both the cartridge and - to a lesser extent - the LPs.

Tubes are either breaking in or slowly "dying" - and the specter of random tube failure is always around the corner. There is also the heat issue.

But nothing gets me lost in delicious music as much as an LP played through a all-tube system. So it's all worthwhile in the end.

Alberto

Exactly the same feelings here.
Very well said Alberto. :thumbsup:

[hkval]

The MCD1100 is my audio dream come true - corny, but honest. HOWEVER, having said that, I am looking into a modest vinyl rig. I am not looking for any kind of improvement, just something different once in a while.
The Olive-04 is so darn good through the MCD1100 that it has become my most used source. I still enjoy physically putting a CD in the tray, and now I am looking forward to placing vinyl on a platter.:thumbsup:

[Puma Cat]

:roflmao: : I was waiting for you Dan ! :D
Indeed, that was not to create a debate, I posted in the analog forum : this was for Stephen, Dave, Bill.... ! You did not have to read :D ! Just kidding....I know that you read everything !

Jérôme, which Stephen were you referring to? ;)

[Puma Cat]

The MCD1100 is my audio dream come true - corny, but honest. HOWEVER, having said that, I am looking into a modest vinyl rig. I am not looking for any kind of improvement, just something different once in a while.
The Olive-04 is so darn good through the MCD1100 that it has become my most used source. I still enjoy physically putting a CD in the tray, and now I am looking forward to placing vinyl on a platter.:thumbsup:

My recommendation for a modest vinyl rig would be a Clearaudio Concept.

[darkstar]

Up until 12- 18 months ago, which is about the time I started my journey listening to many systems to find "the one", I would have told anybody that CD rules and I have no desire to go back to vinyl.

But after hearing Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Hugh Masekela's Hope on vinyl just to name a few, the truth of the matter for me is vinyl is superior. And as much as vinyl is so inconvenient, my system, once complete, will no doubt have significant phono components.

[Still-One]

Oh Jerome', here we are waiting for the World to end today and you tweak us with another Vinyl post. :lmao:

Jim

[Jerome W]

Oh Jerome', here we are waiting for the World to end today and you tweak us with another Vinyl post. :lmao:

Jim

:roflmao:
Jim, we'll have to make choices in the "olam abaa" ( future world...) !

[Jerome W]

Jérôme, which Stephen were you referring to? ;)

Two Dot !

[JSCC]

Jérôme.......Nice way to NOT start a new debate. :D

I like both sources, but prefer digital when it is done right. And let me add, the MCD1100 is digital done right. :thumbsup:

Technology progresses as each day passes.

Where once when Sooloos was first introduced, my very first impression was its simply cost way too much for "convenience listening". Then I had the McIntosh MS750 in my all McIntosh rig, the simplicity turns to addiction. Nice ... still with a capital "BUT" .... CD's still sounded better thru the then MCD1000+MDA1000 (and later the MCD500).

Tried the Thorens with a humble Ortofon 2M Blue when I moved to an all Meridian setup and things started to sound different as it like "something" that is so "sweet and alluring, with all imperfections thrown in - a la the pops and cackles".

When I decided to go for broke, I changed my entire combo to the latest Meridian revision had to offer, plus a Sooloos & a better TT combo, things started to becomes clear.

Digital done right is so close ... the 808.3 CD performance is so anlogue sounding. And the Sooloos is not too far away when played thru the ID40. Wait .... ANALOGUE .... thats the word!!! And when I played the same piece of music via the 3 mediums, Vinyl, Sooloos (ripped) and redbook CD, the vinyl do come up the most preferred medium, IF the cackles and pops are missing in the performance. Setback? Well, before I can start drifting to audio nirvana, I had to get up and lift the arm, flip the record and start all over again! Seriously, being a couch potato, this is a setback for me ....

However, all smiles whenever I play the CD thru the 808.3 as I can sit back and lost my way into the music! Still, the Sooloos, being the third most preferred medium somehow got the most play time .... as continuously, I can flip flop whenever and wherever I care to via my iPad or iPhone and after a while, the pleasure of lazing, drinking coke and listening to my music at random pleasure always put me thru a process of focus listening, then slowly to a daze ... and then dozing off!

Digital done right? Yes siree, I agree! Vinyl, a pleasure with a price and seriously, I dont give a "x$%", cause its all MUSIC ... and I cant ask for more, after searching all these time and thru the years, I finally found my Music .... thanks to Howie and Meridian! :thumbsup:

Sorry, I just have to let this out .... cause I never had been so happy and CONTENDED ... and the best way to sum it for me is ... THE SEARCH IS OVER! For STEREO that is ....

And now, one more thing ..... (OK, leave that for sometime later). Now back to Sunday listening.

So Dan, Jermome, "Two Dot", Jeff, Serge, Ivan, Victor and all the nice friends in this forun, I love all of it ... Vinyl, CDs or servers - if done right ... and indeed to me, I finally found it! :banana:

[jwhite613]

Jerome. I am a huge fan of vinyl. I started in my teens. I did cd's for around 10 years. Now I only buy a cd if the band/musician does not release on vinyl or the LP is oop and impossible to find (or super expensive). To me personally nothing sounds better than the dark side.

[two dot]

Jerome,

I think you know how I feel and Alberto put it very well.

Getting rid of cd's are spinners was one of the best things that I ever did for my enjoyment of music. Now I concentrate on one medium, the one that I have loved the most and always been drawn to.

I would LOVE to love digital and solid state... but, for me, there is just no comparison to the amount of enjoyment I get listening to tubes and vinyl.

I am drawn into the music on a much deeper level.

[Jerome W]

Jeff, Stephen,

Yes, it's all about the music. There must be analog and digital ears in order to explain how much difference we hear between these two medias.
My pleasure with vinyl has nothing to see with what I get with digital.
I just hear more music, more emotions, more life when I play a vinyl.
I recognize that not everyone who listens to my system feels the same. My wife and my audiophile friends do. But some "regular" friends don't and prefer cds by a large margin.

Jerry, you 're right : convenience of a great server is terrific and playing a vinyl is a lot of "work" compared to this. But my ears are rewarded with analog. Since a few months that I set up my server, I was gaining a lot for rediscovering my music library at a fingertip on the ipad and I love it, but trully, I was missing the essence of music. Hence my quest for other tube amps designs. But playing vinyls again reopened my ears and I rediscovered the real music. Talking of amps now, it seems to me that no other amp could do more than the 2301's can do in my system but I will try the Verdier Triode Spirit anyway...

[Tonepub]

I've got no complaints with digital and while the analog still wins with the best recordings, it's not by that much. I'm still very happy with the digital front end and it does not bother me.

[jimtranr]

After all but forsaking vinyl for digital an eon ago, I hauled my 1984-vintage SOTA Sapphire out of the closet about nine years ago (it was there because my wife would NOT let me sell it under any circumstances), had my local dealer (a SOTA owner himself) recondition it, install a Grado Gold on its Jelco-OEM'd arm, and sell me a Rotel phono stage.

I started spinning what few LP's I hadn't given away, and said, "Hmm." "See?" responded my wife. I then invested in a VPI record cleaning machine, and not a few pops and crackles disappeared. Then last year I upgraded the phono stage. Made quite a difference.

The upshot is that vinyl is on balance my ear-and-gut-friendliest disc-spinning listening medium these days. I've somehow even managed to restore most of the LP collection I once had. Digital, including SACD and the few DAD's I have, still gets its innings--a lot of them, but primarily for convenience and program material availability.

[Jerome W]

After all but forsaking vinyl for digital an eon ago, I hauled my 1984-vintage SOTA Sapphire out of the closet about nine years ago (it was there because my wife would NOT let me sell it under any circumstances), had my local dealer (a SOTA owner himself) recondition it, install a Grado Gold on its Jelco-OEM'd arm, and sell me a Rotel phono stage.

I started spinning what few LP's I hadn't given away, and said, "Hmm." "See?" responded my wife. I then invested in a VPI record cleaning machine, and not a few pops and crackles disappeared. Then last year I upgraded the phono stage. Made quite a difference.

The upshot is that vinyl is on balance my ear-and-gut-friendliest disc-spinning listening medium these days. I've somehow even managed to restore most of the LP collection I once had. Digital, including SACD and the few DAD's I have, still gets its innings--a lot of them, but primarily for convenience and program material availability.

Yes, our wives have very good ears.
When I got my Clearaudio rig, my wife told me : now your music is really moving. Oh, and of course, she also preferred the LP12 to the MDA....
Go vinyl Go !

[Rilands]

The sound of Vinyl is tops for me, but the convenience of my music server wins over and gets played much more. I like a remote control.:yes:

[Alberto]

With the MDA1000 going through a tube preamp and an SET tube power amp - all traces of digital sound (etched sound, digital "glare", etc.) disappear for me. I haven't suffered from "digititis" and listening fatigue due to digital in quite a while.

Recently I compared vinyl to digital by playing the same recordings on both media. Vinyl gives me a more spacious and holographic sound with an extended soundstage in all dimensions (height, depth and width) and it is a bit more involving. So, in my case, the "sins" of digital in my system are sins of omission (slightly smaller soundstage and flatter sound) - much less troubling than sins of commission (digital glare, fatigue from etched sound, etc.)

Alberto

[Still-One]

Yes, our wives have very good ears.
When I got my Clearaudio rig, my wife told me : now your music is really moving. Oh, and of course, she also preferred the LP12 to the MDA....
Go vinyl Go !
Jérôme

I a not sure my wife has good ears. She never seems to hear what I am saying. :D

Of course she says the same about me.

Jim

[Jerome W]

Jérôme

I a not sure my wife has good ears. She never seems to hear what I am saying. :D

Of course she says the same about me.

Jim

Very funny Jim ! :tresbon:

[f1 fan]

Currently listening to a vinyl on my system, I could not resist to copy and paste the introduction of Stereophile's review of the Brinkmann TT :

"I won't debate here how to make a turntable's platter go around. Choose your favorite: belt vs direct drive, idler wheel vs belt, spring-windup vs wind power, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to debate. Each of these technologies has its pluses and minuses, but none can produce CD's accuracy of speed and inherent freedom from wow and flutter.
Despite that, you'll never convince me that CDs produce music that sounds better or more lifelike than LPs, or that CDs even come close to communicating music's ability to evoke emotions from listeners, or the sensation that you've been transported to the concert hall, or that the musicians are in your room performing for you. They just don't.

Play the best CDs for an hour and convince yourself that the technology has gotten really good—and it has—then play an LP on even a modestly priced turntable, and the sensations of quiet, relaxation, and relief are profound. As one friend who hadn't heard vinyl in years said when he heard The Clash on my turntable, "That's the sound I've been missing!" His decision was made in an instant: He got rid of most of his CDs and replaced them with the LPs he'd ditched when he went digital."

We live in an "analog world".
Don't want to start a new debate here, but I just can't understand how many people can prefer the sound of digital playback over the "dark side"....:scratch2:

Jerome...well said my friend. While I still have many cd's, dvd-a's & sacd's I just don't play them anymore. The Marantz universal player is a fine player and warm sounding but the lp has always had more playing time in my system. Long Live Analog.

Dave

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[Tonepub]

Currently listening to a vinyl on my system, I could not resist to copy and paste the introduction of Stereophile's review of the Brinkmann TT :

"I won't debate here how to make a turntable's platter go around. Choose your favorite: belt vs direct drive, idler wheel vs belt, spring-windup vs wind power, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to debate. Each of these technologies has its pluses and minuses, but none can produce CD's accuracy of speed and inherent freedom from wow and flutter.
Despite that, you'll never convince me that CDs produce music that sounds better or more lifelike than LPs, or that CDs even come close to communicating music's ability to evoke emotions from listeners, or the sensation that you've been transported to the concert hall, or that the musicians are in your room performing for you. They just don't.

Play the best CDs for an hour and convince yourself that the technology has gotten really good—and it has—then play an LP on even a modestly priced turntable, and the sensations of quiet, relaxation, and relief are profound. As one friend who hadn't heard vinyl in years said when he heard The Clash on my turntable, "That's the sound I've been missing!" His decision was made in an instant: He got rid of most of his CDs and replaced them with the LPs he'd ditched when he went digital."

We live in an "analog world".
Don't want to start a new debate here, but I just can't understand how many people can prefer the sound of digital playback over the "dark side"....:scratch2:

What you're forgetting is that Mikey said this last month when reviewing the dCS Debussy:


You can't really fight it, nor should you: The Blu-ray disc excepted, the future of digital storage and playback is not any sort of silver optical disc. Rather, it will be hi-rez files downloaded from the Internet, stored on a hard drive, and decoded by an outboard, multi-input D/A converter such as the dCS Debussy. I don't see how even the most committed analog diehard would not enjoy the sound of high-resolution digital files decoded by the Debussy, fed via S/PDIF from either a dedicated music server like the Sooloos or via USB from a computer hard drive.





Having spent a lot of time and money upgrading my digital and analog front ends over the past few years, I still love analog, when everything is perfect.

However, I've heard plenty of bad examples of each. Also, having the opportunity to compare analog hardware to the dCS stack at all price points, I would not take a "modestly priced turntable" to the dCS, it doesn't even come close. I'll take great digital over mediocre analog any day of the week and with all the new digital hardware on the market, they've raised the bar significantly.

Mikey's vision of analog is probably as equally distorted as mine is of digital. Who's got a 100,000 dollar turntable or a 60,000 CD player?

Sometimes those of us in the industry lose sight of what's really going on and I'll be the first one to plead guilty as charged.

Sure, when you are listening to LP's on a truly reference analog setup on a $300k + system, as Mikey and I are both fortunate enough to do every day, these differences are readily apparent. But right now, listening to a pair of Klipsch Heresy III's and a Rega Brio R integrated, the diff between a Rega P3 and Elys cartridge (about 1200 bucks) and a Rega DAC (about $1000) fed by my laptop is negligible and in many cases the digital sounds better.

Of course, here at AA we've got a lot of above average systems, which is pretty cool and it is great to see the passion involved. But I've got no problem being transported by good digital files.

And as much as I hate to take a poke at Mikey, for all his talk about conveying the "realism of the live performance" next time you meet him at a show, ask him how many live performances he's been to in the last five years....

I attend 50 - 100 shows per year across the board, amplified and non. Our editor, Bob Gendron (who writes for the Chicago Tribune in his spare time) sees close to 100 - 150 live performances a year.

[jimtranr]

I know this goes almost without saying, but one of the problems in the "debate"--and it's a problem not limited simply to the ongoing digital-versus-analog issue--is defining what "sounds better" means. It's in large part a perceptual, preference, and--pardon the use of the term--"values" problem that is further complicated by variables uncontrollable by the listener: among them, mike selection, number, and placement as well as mixing, mastering, and other production decisions (and I'm confining myself to two-channel media). Which is why some analog will sound better than some digital and vice versa, whether--and here I'll go out to the edge of a long, extremely slender limb--the playback equipment for one medium is "mediocre" and the other is Mikey's or any other reviewer's latest swoon-over toy.

Having said that, I'm not quite a fence straddler. My preference remains vinyl, which in most instances I find more satisfying to listen to.

[Jerome W]

What you're forgetting is that Mikey said this last month when reviewing the dCS Debussy:
[B]I don't see how even the most committed analog diehard would not enjoy the sound of high-resolution digital files

Jeff,

My english is not very good but I understand something else from this statement. He said that a die hard analog guy can enjoy digital. No problem about that. I enjoy very much my MDA, but I clearly prefer, and not by a small margin, my Clearaudio and it is not a 100k rig. This statement is not opposite to the one I quoted.
He's just saying that you can enjoy digital at this level. He 's not saying that he prefers digital.

I know very well the P3 / Elys : that was my first real TT when I was a student. I had wonderful moments with it. As good as it can sound, it has some shortcomings and isn't in my view a very good example of a great sounding TT. A second hand basic LP12 will cost the same and is miles away in performance. I have no trouble believing that the REGA dac could sound better than the P3 / Elys, although I never heard the Dac.

There is something happening with vinyl that is not really objective and can't be described. Just a question of taste, but I prefer analog over digital so much that I can hardly understand why not all the people hear like me !
A few months ago, I have described how in the absolute sense, the MR85 is far superior to the MR77. But as would say Alberto, the 77 is more delicious to my ears : i just have more fun, more pleasure, more involvment when I listen to the 77.
Vinyl is the same. Digital seems to be superior for all aspects of the sound, except for micro and macro dynamics, but to me, the music is just more alive and natural with analog.
As Dave said many times, Long Live Analog :beerchug:

[blacsno]

Well.... at least when I rip an LP into a digital format. I'm able to make my own Hi-REZ files, that allows me to get closer to the turntable sound. Sorry CD's owners you get whatever info they put onto the disc!! Case in point I have the Rippingtons Moonlighting on CD and LP. The Hi-Rez conversion trumps the CD ripped EAC all day long!

Ivan are you still costing out my digital implant hearing system? :) I'm still plague with hearing in only analog......

Live Long and Prosper Analog
Ken

[two dot]

It really is more simple than we are making it.

Humans hear in analog.

Vinyl is analog.

Period.

There is no music on a ceedee only numbers, digits...

[hkval]

It really is more simple than we are making it.

Humans hear in analog.

Vinyl is analog.

Period.

There is no music on a ceedee only numbers, digits...

My only answer to that is 920198417371092370912309840234802MCD1100.:D

[two dot]

Good One!!!

[almandog]

Yes I am also enjoying my analog setup. I don't listen to CD at home, only in the car. I won't say that Cd are not good listening but it takes away all interactivity that I have with vinyl. I listen vinyl for at least two hours every day. It's a great experience as you all know already. My wife thinks I am crazy!!!