Best TT under 20k ?

[Jerome W]

Hello friends,

Which TT / arm / cart combo would you choose for a budget under 20k ?
Please, state if you listened to your suggestion or if your opinion is based solely on reviews and technical data.

Many thanks in advance !
Cheers,

[metaphacts]

Hello friends,

Which TT / arm / cart combo would you choose for a budget under 20k ?
Please, state if you listened to your suggestion or if your opinion is based solely on reviews and technical data.

Many thanks in advance !
Cheers,

This one:

SME - Model 20/3 Review hi-fi news (http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Model-203a-Review-hifi-news-1587.shtml)

Have heard it mounted with a Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation Cartridge into an ARC REF2 Phono Stage, ARC REF Anniversary Preamp, ARC REF610Ts (w/KT120s), Transparent Cables and Power and The Sonus faber.

Disclaimer: Sumiko imports SME. :thumbsup:

[Tonepub]

If you have 20k to spend, there are a LOT of good choices...

My absolute favorite would be the AVID Acutus SP (not the Ref, more money) and the SME V
this is about $17k and most dealers will probably cut you a little slack if you are buying a cart as well.

Carts I've tried with excellent luck on this combination, all in the $4k range:

Koetsu Urushi Blue
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
Lyra Skala
Grado Statement 1
SoundSmith Sussurro Paua
Clearaudio DaVinci



SME 20/SME iV.Vi would be an alt. excellent choice around the same price.

Both tables are built like tanks and should be good enough that you probably don't need to upgrade further.

And I have to say that this Sumiko Palo Santos is rapidly becoming one of my favorite cartridges ever!

[Masterlu]

http://www.glamour.com/beauty/blogs/girls-in-the-beauty-department/0518-gold-finger_bd.jpg

:naughty:

[metaphacts]

If you have 20k to spend, there are a LOT of good choices...

My absolute favorite would be the AVID Acutus SP (not the Ref, more money) and the SME V
this is about $17k and most dealers will probably cut you a little slack if you are buying a cart as well.

Carts I've tried with excellent luck on this combination, all in the $4k range:

Koetsu Urushi Blue
Sumiko Palo Santos Presentation
Lyra Skala
Grado Statement 1
SoundSmith Sussurro Paua
Clearaudio DaVinci



SME 20/SME iV.Vi would be an alt. excellent choice around the same price.

Both tables are built like tanks and should be good enough that you probably don't need to upgrade further.

And I have to say that this Sumiko Palo Santos is rapidly becoming one of my favorite cartridges ever!

Jeff, FYI the new 20/3 with a IV.Vi is a $17k package and the 20/3 with a V is $18k. There's also a special package price on the cartridge if you add a Sumiko model.

Any 20/2 would have to be a dealer demo or used. NTTAWWT - it's an SME. :D

[Jerome W]

All very good suggestions !
Thanks a lot !
Keep them coming !

[Tonepub]

Seriously, if you're in this budget range, it's going to be tough to get a clunker. Most of it will be getting synergy with your taste, system and software.

It's the guys that have $2500 to spend that makes it a lot tougher.

[Jerome W]

Jeff, FYI the new 20/3 with a IV.Vi is a $17k package and the 20/3 with a V is $18k. There's also a special package price on the cartridge if you add a Sumiko model.

Any 20/2 would have to be a dealer demo or used. NTTAWWT - it's an SME. :D

In France, the SME 20/3 with the V arm costs 9600 euros : much cheaper than in the US ! i would be left with around 6000 euros for a cart ! That should give many options....

[two dot]

I would love to have an SME in my system. Seems like a great choice.


Since... you cant have the Shindo 301 player system...

[Tonepub]

I'd seriously go for the SME or the AVID, grab that Sumiko cartridge (Palo Santos), sell your current setup and invest in a much better phono stage.

I'd say the AVID Acutus REF, the SME 20 are two of my all time favorite tables.

[Jerome W]

I'd seriously go for the SME or the AVID, grab that Sumiko cartridge (Palo Santos), sell your current setup and invest in a much better phono stage.

I'd say the AVID Acutus REF, the SME 20 are two of my all time favorite tables.

Jeff,

If I go for the 20/3 and the Sumiko Palo Santos, I will wait a bit before upgrading my phono stage :D !
But I will remember the advice !

[Tonepub]

That's still an awesome place to start.

This Palo Santos is killer...

It's so close to a Koetsu Rosewood Sig. Platinum for almost 3k less. So, if you can call that a "bargain"....

:)

[Puma Cat]

In France, the SME 20/3 with the V arm costs 9600 euros : much cheaper than in the US ! i would be left with around 6000 euros for a cart ! That should give many options....

You could spend 3000 Euro for a cart, and 3000 Euro for a phono stage....that might be an option.

[BlueChiaro]

Jerome, I'm far (infinitely so) from a vinyl aficionado, but I love my SME 20/2 with the SME V arm. I bought it with the intent of it being my table for life, and I'm sure it will be. When the time is right, I will next focus on a phono stage worthy of the table such as the ARC Ref Phono 2.

Best of luck in your search!

[Jerome W]

You could spend 3000 Euro for a cart, and 3000 Euro for a phono stage....that might be an option.

Yes, but I'm not sure if a 3000 euros phono stage will be better than what is in the C1000. I actually doubt it. But at 2500 euros, I will give a try to the Linn Uphorik.
I won't buy a 6000 euros cart anyway. 3000 euros for the Sumiko Palo Santos will be more than enough. I don't like the idea of spending high amounts of money on a cart, which will need a stylus change once every 3 years in my case....

[Jerome W]

Jerome, I'm far (infinitely so) from a vinyl aficionado, but I love my SME 20/2 with the SME V arm. I bought it with the intent of it being my table for life, and I'm sure it will be. When the time is right, I will next focus on a phono stage worthy of the table such as the ARC Ref Phono 2.

Best of luck in your search!

Thanks a lot !

From what I read on the web, a Linn Uphorik will do much more than the Ray Samuels phono stage you're using and will cost less, at least here in Europe, than the Ref 2. But I don't know its price in the US....:scratch2:

[Jerome W]

About the SME rig, let me paste you a comment often read on the web about these tables :

"You are quite correct the sme sounds dead. Probably an upgrade if you have an lp12 but really there are much better options out there like the Yorke, Brinkmann, Avid etc etc. All three of the sme decks sound flat and un-involving though it is somewhat improved by using non-sme arms on the decks. Rock sounds completely lifeless and smoothed. A deck for classical lovers only and even then an Amazon reference would be much better."

Last thing I'm looking for is a non involving sound. I like neutrality, but it must rocks to please me. Like the 2301's.....

[metaphacts]

About the SME rig, let me paste you a comment often read on the web about these tables :

"You are quite correct the sme sounds dead. Probably an upgrade if you have an lp12 but really there are much better options out there like the Yorke, Brinkmann, Avid etc etc. All three of the sme decks sound flat and un-involving though it is somewhat improved by using non-sme arms on the decks. Rock sounds completely lifeless and smoothed. A deck for classical lovers only and even then an Amazon reference would be much better."

Last thing I'm looking for is a non involving sound. I like neutrality, but it must rocks to please me. Like the 2301's.....


Must..be..patient...

At the end of the day you may prefer another table and that's perfectly fine. However..

Those who set up an SME table and do not understand how to move beyond the basic starting set up point end up with dead sound.

Those who use set up techniques made famous by a certain Scottish brand end up with dynamically dead but bright sound. The technique works on the table for which it was developed, it just doesn't work on an SME.

Those who do not finish the job of setting up an SME arm (hint: no you do not adjust VTA with each record) end up with unresolving sound.

Those who are friends with one or more of the three above repeat the myth ad infinitum on the web. BTW, how old must that post be? SME make 5 tables, not 3. And 3 of the 5 did not exist or exist in their current incarnation when they did make just 3.

FWIW, I don't know any more about mechanical turntable set up than I do about speaker set up. :no:

Sorry if I'm a little testy on a Monday morning.

[Tonepub]

Also, many use way too much damping on the SME arms, which deadens the sound and gives the "wooly bass" that SME arms are noted for - that is ALWAYS the result of improper setup.

The problem with buying any table at this price is that like a high performance car, they are easier to set up WRONG. A REGA P3 is tough to get wrong, but a precision instrument like the SME 20 needs a little care to sound its best...

Keep that in mind with any table in this range...

[Jerome W]

I got it guys ! Thanks a lot !
There is only one dealer in France for SME. He is the importer. He is a very good electronician who worked for McIntosh in Binghampton. I suppose that he will be good to set it up.

[Tonepub]

I'm going to be in France in September, I'll stop by for a listen if you have time!

[Jerome W]

I'm going to be in France in September, I'll stop by for a listen if you have time!

Jeff, that will be my pleasure !

[patrick]

In France, the SME 20/3 with the V arm costs 9600 euros : much cheaper than in the US ! i would be left with around 6000 euros for a cart ! That should give many options....

Yes, the mark up in the US for SME tables is tough to swallow.

[Jerome W]

Avid Acutus Ref is out of the game because it costs in France 18600 euros without arm :sigh: !!!

[Tonepub]

Understandable!

That's a big jump...

[metaphacts]

Yes, the mark up in the US for SME tables is tough to swallow.

Right because actually having a country big enough to require a distributor and dealers (2 levels) should cost the same as a country with factory to dealer (UK) or factory to distributor who acts as his only dealer (1 level).

I understand that you want it to be less expensive. Don't we all?

Nobody is asking you to like the pricing but at least understand what exactly you are bashing. Hopefully you do now.

Oh and welcome to AA.

:welcome2.:

[Jerome W]

Right because actually having a country big enough to require a distributor and dealers (2 levels) should cost the same as a country with factory to dealer (UK) or factory to distributor who acts as his only dealer (1 level).

I understand that you want it to be less expensive. Don't we all?

Nobody is asking you to like the pricing but at least understand what exactly you are bashing. Hopefully you do now.

Oh and welcome to AA.

:welcome2.:

Yes, in France, prices of SME tables are kept low because the importer is also the dealer.

Now, what would be interesting, is to compare the increase in price between different brands who also have an importer and dealers.
Is the increased price in the US, over the price in the country of origin, of the same magnitude for Clearaudio, SME, Avid, Linn for example ?

For example, Avid has in France one importer, and dealers, and the price is higher than in the US, who probably also has 1 importer and dealers !!
I thought we were closer to UK than the US :D !

[metaphacts]

Yes, in France, prices of SME tables are kept low because the importer is also the dealer.

Now, what would be interesting, is to compare the increase in price between different brands who also have an importer and dealers.
Is the increased price in the US, over the price in the country of origin, of the same magnitude for Clearaudio, SME, Avid, Linn for example ?

For example, Avid has in France one importer, and dealers, and the price is higher than in the US, who probably also has 1 importer and dealers !!
I thought we were closer to UK than the US :D !

Not so much. In order to compare, you would need to know factory pricing policies of the manufacturers in question.

Pricing is determined by the factory cost. Some manufacturers have a different domestic dealer and export price. Some do not. In some cases the difference is minimal, in others it supports a distributor with a dealer network. Still others may have a sliding scale to their distributors based on volume.

As with Patrick's comment above, unless you know the individual factories' pricing methodology, you're making assumptions that likely have little basis in fact.

[patrick]

Not so fast. I am not making the assumptions you assume I am making (can I say that? :) I do understand well the structure you outline, I also realize the US is a long way from the UK and gear has to ship far and be warrantied internally to the end market. I wonder however, why the distributor of SME makes such a mark up on this line when it's not uniform across other imported audio products.

But thanks for the welcome, I think I know exactly what you meant by it.

[Jerome W]

Not so fast. I am not making the assumptions you assume I am making (can I say that? :) I do understand well the structure you outline, I also realize the US is a long way from the UK and gear has to ship far and be warrantied internally to the end market. I wonder however, why the distributor of SME makes such a mark up on this line when it's not uniform across other imported audio products.

But thanks for the welcome, I think I know exactly what you mean by it.

Patrick,

Very good point. This is also what I tried to express but my english is not as good as yours.
Bill ( Metaphacts) answered my question without seeming to understand that factory cost and policies towards importers are not in the equation here. Factory cost is the same for the local market and for the abroad market.
The welcome was a bit " fresh " because you're talking to someone from Sumiko, the US importer of SME. So Bill defends his position. But you probably knew that already !

Bill,
I understand clearly the usefulness of importers and the fact that their work has to be paid, as for dealers.
But I can easily understand Patrick's point.
We have the same problem here in France with McIntosh. Hence, a lot of people buy McIntosh outside France ! In Belgium and Italy ! ( when it's not elsewhere I can't mention here ! ). I have had 8 different McIntosh pieces over time and no one was bought in France !
Are the importation costs differences justified between european countries in regard to the same brand ?
No.
The truth is that importers and dealers have the right to establish their prices freely in their country and when they do that, they ask themselves " does my customer have a real choice to buy elsewhere than from my circuit ?" If the answer is "yes but it will be very tough for him", then the price can go up easily ! Sometimes, but it's not often, the answer is "No, but I don't care " like for the french McIntosh importer !
Let me give you an other example. A few years ago I bought my center channel speaker CB6i. I called my dealer : the list price was 3600 euros. He could make me a discount at 3200 euros. I called a dealer in UK. He could send me the speaker at 1800 euros, shipping included ! I finally got it from my dealer at 1700 euros ! Less than 50 % of the list price !! too bad I did not know that when I bought my big speakers !
Concurrence and the ability or not to buy elsewhere, is ultimately the unique factor towards the ending price in different countries. IMHO. All the rest are diplomatic speeches : air.
As an american audiophile won't go to Mexico to buy a pair of speakers ( as we can go to Belgium or Italy....) or a TT, the following is just a logical suite.....

[metaphacts]

Not so fast. I am not making the assumptions you assume I am making (can I say that? :) I do understand well the structure you outline, I also realize the US is a long way from the UK and gear has to ship far and be warrantied internally to the end market. I wonder however, why the distributor of SME makes such a mark up on this line when it's not uniform across other imported audio products.

But thanks for the welcome, I think I know exactly what you mean by it.

Actually you are doing just that. There is no uniformity across other products because manufacturers don't do things uniformly manufacturer to manufacturer. Further, some even have different pricing structure in different parts of their lines.

I said nothing about the costs of being a distributor but of the cost of purchasing the product from the factory. Read again the examples I gave of different manufacturers' models. Do you even know which structure SME uses? What other manufacturers use? Somehow I doubt it. If you did, you probably wouldn't be making the blanket statement you are.

I understand that it's really easy to just moan about a distributor to justify buying something cheaper. All many people care about is the end price and that's ok. We all want a deal. Until you want to have it set up or undo the myth about how it sounds. Then you're on your own. As some people here on AA can attest, sometimes it's better to have a little bit of support. :dunno:

As for the welcome, I meant it. This is a pretty cool and certainly unique community. I think you'll enjoy it. :thumbsup:

[metaphacts]

Patrick,

Very good point. This is also what I tried to express but my english is not as good as yours.
Bill ( Metaphacts) answered my question without seeming to understand that factory cost and policies towards importers are not in the equation here. Factory cost is the same for the local market and for the abroad market.
The welcome was a bit " fresh " because you're talking to someone from Sumiko, the US importer of SME. So Bill defends his position. But you probably knew that already !




Jerome,

The welcome was a friendly en garde! Not just from a Sumiko guy but a veteran of the ups and downs of our high end audio industry since the mid 70s. My response is nothing new nor were Patrick's assumptions. And factory cost is not only in the equation, it is the basis for all the equations.

With the advent of the EU what you have is more like US dealers in different states than distributors in different countries. Add in the term "distributor" being used to describe both a true distributor and a dealer/distributor and you get a real pricing morass and huge variations. And assuming that ex factory cost is the same in the home market and the export market is a mistake. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

Today there are many ways to get a price. Most all of them end up circumventing the guy who did the demo for you because you thought his price was too high. Something about the price of everything and the value of nothing comes to mind. You don't feel that you should contribute to his cost of doing business so you take your business to someone else. Usually that somebody else is somebody who simply lowballed your local guy and took the sale. He had no carrying costs, it's found money. Again that is your call. But the guy who paid for you to hear the product, whose facilities helped you to make the decision, the guy who would dial in your purchase is not a bad guy for covering his costs and making sufficient profit to sustain his business.

Now with the internet and people supposedly knowing more and more about what they are buying, am I just a bit out of touch? Perhaps. Yet I see system after system set up and tweaked to within a inch of it's life, but so far below the basic performance potential of when it came out of the box, you have to ask yourself how far have we really come? For example, would the SME really be a deal if yours sounds like your previous forum post claims it does while my customer gets one that plays music the way it's supposed to (and does)? Hmm.

Next time you do an A/B of a couple of really expensive components that are thousands of $$ apart with a commensurate performance difference, ask yourself how much you would pay for someone to come in and make your system sound as much better as the component upgrade does. If you are honest, you will probably give a figure much, much smaller than the cost difference between the two components. We'll always pay for hardware but rarely for the knowledge used to optimize it's performance. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Yes I am old fashioned and I think you should support your service and facilities based and if possible local dealer, even if it means paying a bit more. I won't apologize for it.

[Jerome W]

Bill,
You're talking of many different things here.
I agree for most of it.
My example with the center channel is different of what you describe, because my dealer did not have the speaker in demo. He was just ordering it for me if I paid for. So basically, he was acting like a web business site.
You're not old fashionned when you say that we have to pay for the listening and the set up. That is my thinking too and it is a question of honesty.
I will never buy a product in store A if I had the demo in store B, just because A is less expensive. Having a real auditorium is a service we have to pay for.
I agree 100%. And also the set up of the gear we buy. In Paris, I only had a very pro set up in my audiophile history and it was from my Linn dealer.
For a pair of Keilidh speakers, costing about 1000 euros at this time, they stayed more than 1 hour to fine tune the position of the speakers in my room.
To compare, think that when I bought my EB1i at an official dealer audio shop, they just delivered the speakers to me : no set up of any kind !!
Many dealers are paid for the demo and for the set up and few of them really make the set up or, when they make it, they know no more than me and it is not well done at all ! I have seen many examples like that around me and not only in my home, for speakers and TT. ( no set up work is required for other stuff of course....)

I believe that the importation market in the US is just too complicated for me to understand !

BTW, talking about set up, you and your wife are invited to stay in my home near Paris when you wish to and for the time you want, and you'll tune my speakers position, and you'll check my TT, ok ? :D

Cheers,


Jerome,

The welcome was a friendly en garde! Not just from a Sumiko guy but a veteran of the ups and downs of our high end audio industry since the mid 70s. My response is nothing new nor were Patrick's assumptions. And factory cost is not only in the equation, it is the basis for all the equations.

With the advent of the EU what you have is more like US dealers in different states than distributors in different countries. Add in the term "distributor" being used to describe both a true distributor and a dealer/distributor and you get a real pricing morass and huge variations. And assuming that ex factory cost is the same in the home market and the export market is a mistake. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.

Today there are many ways to get a price. Most all of them end up circumventing the guy who did the demo for you because you thought his price was too high. Something about the price of everything and the value of nothing comes to mind. You don't feel that you should contribute to his cost of doing business so you take your business to someone else. Usually that somebody else is somebody who simply lowballed your local guy and took the sale. He had no carrying costs, it's found money. Again that is your call. But the guy who paid for you to hear the product, whose facilities helped you to make the decision, the guy who would dial in your purchase is not a bad guy for covering his costs and making sufficient profit to sustain his business.

Now with the internet and people supposedly knowing more and more about what they are buying, am I just a bit out of touch? Perhaps. Yet I see system after system set up and tweaked to within a inch of it's life, but so far below the basic performance potential of when it came out of the box, you have to ask yourself how far have we really come? For example, would the SME really be a deal if yours sounds like your previous forum post claims it does while my customer gets one that plays music the way it's supposed to (and does)? Hmm.

Next time you do an A/B of a couple of really expensive components that are thousands of $$ apart with a commensurate performance difference, ask yourself how much you would pay for someone to come in and make your system sound as much better as the component upgrade does. If you are honest, you will probably give a figure much, much smaller than the cost difference between the two components. We'll always pay for hardware but rarely for the knowledge used to optimize it's performance. Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Yes I am old fashioned and I think you should support your service and facilities based and if possible local dealer, even if it means paying a bit more. I won't apologize for it.

[Jerome W]

Bill,

The more I listen to my TT set up, the more I like it and find that improvements needed are finally very small and could be dependant only on the cart.
On my way for upgrading, I could start by the cart and see what it does.
Do you think that the Sumiko Palo Santos cart could be fitted on my Clearaudio Satisfy Ebony arm ?
Thanks a lot !

[two dot]

Hey Jerome,

Why can't I PM you? Shoot me a PM with your email.

Stephen

[Jerome W]

Hey Stephen,

It looks that you're no more a subscriber, that's why you can't pm me and I don't get your mail !
Just renew your subscription.
My email is jeromewanono@yahoo.fr !

Cheers,

[two dot]

I didn't know that I had expired.... I payaled my fee.

I also sent you an email.

[Jerome W]

I didn't know that I had expired.... I payaled my fee.

I also sent you an email.

Thanks Stephen,

Email reply sent !

[two dot]

Wow that was fast... I even got banner back.

[Formerly YB-2]

Mikey Fremer thinks the new Brinkman DD TT might be the best under $20K (though this thread seems to have morphed a bit). As a DD fan, I might be easilly persuaded that he is correct.

[two dot]

Which Brinkman??? The Oasis???

I love the looks of this DD TT

Anyone know how much?

[patrick]

Actually you are doing just that. There is no uniformity across other products because manufacturers don't do things uniformly manufacturer to manufacturer. Further, some even have different pricing structure in different parts of their lines.

I said nothing about the costs of being a distributor but of the cost of purchasing the product from the factory. Read again the examples I gave of different manufacturers' models. Do you even know which structure SME uses? What other manufacturers use? Somehow I doubt it. If you did, you probably wouldn't be making the blanket statement you are.

I understand that it's really easy to just moan about a distributor to justify buying something cheaper. All many people care about is the end price and that's ok. We all want a deal. Until you want to have it set up or undo the myth about how it sounds. Then you're on your own. As some people here on AA can attest, sometimes it's better to have a little bit of support. :dunno:

As for the welcome, I meant it. This is a pretty cool and certainly unique community. I think you'll enjoy it. :thumbsup:

Man, I am having a hard time communicating here, I suspect and I have no desire to flog a dead horse. I stand by my argument that the cost of an SME product in the US is more than the cost of other UK-manufactured tables imported here and it's not clear to the purchaser what they are getting for this extra mark-up. If the cause is a 'structure', so be it. I think ordinary purchasers (if there are such people in the high end table market) can see it for what it is.

Sorry if I seem touchy here but I find the tone of your responses and the content of your replies to be a little patronizing.

[metaphacts]

Man, I am having a hard time communicating here, I suspect and I have no desire to flog a dead horse. I stand by my argument that the cost of an SME product in the US is more than the cost of other UK-manufactured tables imported here and it's not clear to the purchaser what they are getting for this extra mark-up. If the cause is a 'structure', so be it. I think ordinary purchasers (if there are such people in the high end table market) can see it for what it is.

Sorry if I seem touchy here but I find the tone of your responses and the content of your replies to be a little patronizing.

I think you are beginning to see. There is no set rule to which all manufacturers adhere. That it appears that way is not your fault nor the manufacturers, but it appears that way to those who don't, or can't look deeper. As a consumer why should you have to look deeper? It all seems the same. Again all the consumer typically wants is the best price.

If you had simply said you thought the price was too high in the US, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I have no issue with the fact that you don't like the prices (clearly an informed opinion) but I do have an issue with the fact that you think the margins are out of line with other manufacturers and distributors(an issue where you have insufficient data to have an informed opinion.)

[metaphacts]

Bill,


I believe that the importation market in the US is just too complicated for me to understand !

BTW, talking about set up, you and your wife are invited to stay in my home near Paris when you wish to and for the time you want, and you'll tune my speakers position, and you'll check my TT, ok ? :D

Cheers,

Jerome,

Nothing is so complex as do be undecipherable in the face of big Bordeaux or a supple Rhone. It make take us multiple varietals and vintages but I am sure we could help you to understand. :D

Your invitation is too kind. You understand far more than you let on. But we'll play together. It's always more fun that way.

Now I just need to get to Paris!

Bill

[Jerome W]

Jerome,

Nothing is so complex as do be undecipherable in the face of big Bordeaux or a supple Rhone. It make take us multiple varietals and vintages but I am sure we could help you to understand. :D

Your invitation is too kind. You understand far more than you let on. But we'll play together. It's always more fun that way.

Now I just need to get to Paris!

Bill

Great Bill !
Road Trip ! :boatin:

:wine:

Oh, and do you think that the Palo Santos cart could be fitted on the Satisfy Ebony arm : http://www.clearaudio.de/eng/ta_satisfy.html ? Or I would need to change the arm ?
I could also fit a SME V on my Clearaudio, with the Palo Santos and see how it sounds. If I'm not happy, then I will just have to buy the SME 20/3 !

[metaphacts]

Great Bill !
Road Trip ! :boatin:

:wine:

Oh, and do you think that the Palo Santos cart could be fitted on the Satisfy Ebony arm : clearaudio - Tonearm / Satisfy (http://www.clearaudio.de/eng/ta_satisfy.html) ? Or I would need to change the arm ?

I could also fit a SME V on my Clearaudio, with the Palo Santos and see how it sounds. If I'm not happy, then I will just have to buy the SME 20/3 !

Not sure how it would work. But the Palo Santos is a pretty darned good deal, imo.

An SME table would probably sound so dull and lifeless - until a serious SME guy showed up :D

[Puma Cat]

Man, I am having a hard time communicating here, I suspect and I have no desire to flog a dead horse. I stand by my argument that the cost of an SME product in the US is more than the cost of other UK-manufactured tables imported here and it's not clear to the purchaser what they are getting for this extra mark-up. If the cause is a 'structure', so be it. I think ordinary purchasers (if there are such people in the high end table market) can see it for what it is.

Sorry if I seem touchy here but I find the tone of your responses and the content of your replies to be a little patronizing.

It's not the extra markup; it's the off the charts design, engineering, execution, durability, and support from SME you are paying for. Anyone who has owned, or more appropriately lived with, SME products understands this.

[Puma Cat]

Mikey Fremer thinks the new Brinkman DD TT might be the best under $20K (though this thread seems to have morphed a bit). As a DD fan, I might be easilly persuaded that he is correct.

Mikey is known to be very fond of a product....until the next issue when something new comes along. I'm completely confident that when he reviews the new SME 20/3, it will become the best table under $20K in his opinion. It's just that in that case, he'll actually be right!

[Jerome W]

Not sure how it would work. But the Palo Santos is a pretty darned good deal, imo.

An SME table would probably sound so dull and lifeless - until a serious SME guy showed up . :D

This is a must indeed if one gets serious about analog sound and is not able to do it himself ! Much more touchy than what we can simply read in the manuals.
I've heard lp12 sounding just average while the same ones could sound brilliant when properly set up.
Elite Linn dealers get near a week of training at Linn to learn how to set up properly a LP12. And most people think that it is simple to do it !

[metaphacts]

Mikey is known to be very fond of a product....until the next issue when something new comes along. I'm completely confident that when he reviews the new SME 20/3, it will become the best table under $20K in his opinion. It's just that in that case, he'll actually be right!

:respect:

To be fair Mikey (Auntie Enid in another life but that's a long and embarrassing AAHEA story) was waving the analog flag when the only guys buying records were hip hop artists and a poor kid named Kurt shopping at the Goodwill in Seattle.

As long as he's walking the walk, Mikey's okay with me. But I do suspect you are right about what he will say about 20/3.

[Puma Cat]

:respect:

To be fair Mikey (Auntie Enid in another life but that's a long and embarrassing AAHEA story) was waving the analog flag when the only guys buying records were hip hop artists and a poor kid named Kurt shopping at the Goodwill in Seattle.

As long as he's walking the walk, Mikey's okay with me. But I do suspect you are right about what he will say about 20/3.

I, for one, bought LPs until they were simply no longer carried in record stores, approximately the early 90s. The first time I bought a CD player, used from a friend, I was stunned at how bad it sounded compared to my Rega.

[metaphacts]

I, for one, bought LPs until they were simply no longer carried in record stores, approximately the early 90s. The first time I bought a CD player, used from a friend, I was stunned at how bad it sounded compared to my Rega.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[metaphacts]

Elite Linn dealers get near a week of training at Linn to learn how to set up properly a LP12. And most people think that it is simple to do it !

I think there is more to that week than LP-12 training. It just takes a week.:D

http://scotchaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/6-classicmalts-samlet-468b.jpg

[two dot]

I, for one, bought LPs until they were simply no longer carried in record stores, approximately the early 90s. The first time I bought a CD player, used from a friend, I was stunned at how bad it sounded compared to my Rega.

Ditto... I took my first one back to the dealer.... he thought I was crazy... everyone was going "digital" ...

Not me.

[Tonepub]

Mikey is known to be very fond of a product....until the next issue when something new comes along. I'm completely confident that when he reviews the new SME 20/3, it will become the best table under $20K in his opinion. It's just that in that case, he'll actually be right!

There is no "Best" turntable under 20k. There are about a dozen (if not a few more) EXCELLENT turntables at that price point. Almost all of them are made by great companies that have been around for some time, with major expertise.

How can you be so confident about what someone you don't know will say about a product you haven't heard?

At this price point, it's more about the flavor than one being the "best."

While I've only heard the 20/3 at a few shows, I've spent a lot of time with the 20/2 and 20/12; they are both excellent turntables. Of course the SME tables will do a great job with the SME arms, which they are designed around, but there are quite a few excellent tables at this level and having lived with quite a few of them (SME, Clearaudio, Spiral Groove and AVID) I could live happily ever after with either.

You shouldn't put words in other peoples mouths.

[AudioNut]

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

[Masterlu]

It is a lot of money... I'm completely numb by what top of the line things cost today.

[two dot]

No Julian.... you're not. $20K would be a lot of money for a whole system...

My TT cost ~$350... although my cart was about 2K.

Spending 20K for a record player is a great luxury indeed...

[BlueChiaro]

It's a ton of dough. Maybe I should sell mine and buy something practical...like a nice dining room set I'd use twice a year...nah! :no:

Enjoying AA on my DROIDX

[two dot]

An excellent point... we all use and enjoy our audio systems everyday...

A lot of bang for the buck when you look at it that way.

[Tonepub]

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

I couldn't agree with you more, and as I said earlier, when you get to this price point, it's pretty tough if not impossible to make a BAD choice.

20k is a lot of money. I paid $145k for my house 9 years ago!

[metaphacts]

It's a ton of dough. Maybe I should sell mine and buy something practical...like a nice dining room set I'd use twice a year...nah! :no:

Enjoying AA on my DROIDX

That would be a perfect place to do the set up on your next $20k turntable. :D

[Jerome W]

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

Julian,

I think that we all think 20k is a lot of money for a TT ( BTW my question was including a cart, but that does not change much ).
But it is much more money for me, who has around 200 vinyls, than for you who has 14000 vinyls if I remember correctly your signature !
Your vinyl collection costs 70000 dollars at only 5 dollars for one record.
20000 dollars to play them does not sound horrible to me.
But I don't want to calculate the price of playing one record in my case :D !
But each and everyone of my records give me an intense pleasure.
I don't get any pleasure if I buy a 20k watch.
I also think that at this level, improvements are very small and I'm not 100% sure that they will be satisfying compared to my actual set up.
My combo costs around 6000 euros, with the accessories I bought for it ( Ginkgo platfform, TT weights outer ring....). Spending 16000 euros for a new combo, will probably add just minor improvements for this 10000 euros more.
It is true that we don't get as much for our money from a TT than for amps and especially for speakers. If I spend 10k more than my speakers price at PMC, I will be rewarded much more, that's for sure.
To go with Stephen, my previous LP12 set up cost me around 1000 euros with a new cart. My actual rig is slightly better. Not night and day. And I preferred the bloom of my LP12, although all around I'm happier with the better authority and precision of the Clearaudio. I would expect a big improvement for this new 16k euros set up, but indeed, deep inside I think that I will get the same kind of improvement than with my previous upgrade.

So you're right Julian, 20k for a TT rig is probably too much regarding my set up, and even besides any comparison.
BTW, Alberto and Stephen have lighted something in me and I want now to try other tube amps in my system, and get different colors of sound depending on my mood / records/ time of the day and son on.
My dream would be to have different systems ( living in an audio store actually) but my home does not allow that. So I'm thinking about multiple systems in the same room instead.
I will try some SET amps on my speakers, to see how they sound.
If I like the sound, I will keep them connected to the C1000, as for my 2301's.
And I will just have to change the speaker cables on the speakers to switch amps. So 20k will be just enough to buy a set of high end SET amps !
You're right once again.
We are completely nuts.
But you know what. My wife is jealous. She tells me all the time that she would like to be passionate for something as I am with audio.
As Dan would say, this is a great hobby ! Expensive for sure, but truly rewarding for each day of our life.
Cheers,

[two dot]

Jerome,

I think that you hit the nail on the head with the sentence about your wife...

We are very lucky to have the passion that we do... many people go through this life without such a passion... I feel for them.

Right now I am sitting in my favorite chair, listening to an old MONO recording of Louis Armstrong, sipping a Scotch and couldn't be happier...

Cheers,

Stephen

[jdandy]

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

Julian.......$20K is a serious chunk of change. I just parted with $25K in less than 45 days for two source components and an amplifier, none of which I really "needed". I would love to have a $20K turntable rig, but with my 150 albums it is hard to justify that expense no matter what fuzzy logic I apply to the ploy. That doesn't stop my lust for a new turntable rig, but for now it has held me in check.

Your point is well taken, but it made me think back to the list you once posted of the speakers that have come and gone from your systems. That wasn't chump change, either. :D

[cmalak]

Julian,

I think that we all think 20k is a lot of money for a TT ( BTW my question was including a cart, but that does not change much ).
But it is much more money for me, who has around 200 vinyls, than for you who has 14000 vinyls if I remember correctly your signature !
Your vinyl collection costs 70000 dollars at only 5 dollars for one record.
20000 dollars to play them does not sound horrible to me.
But I don't want to calculate the price of playing one record in my case :D !
But each and everyone of my records give me an intense pleasure.
I don't get any pleasure if I buy a 20k watch.
I also think that at this level, improvements are very small and I'm not 100% sure that they will be satisfying compared to my actual set up.
My combo costs around 6000 euros, with the accessories I bought for it ( Ginkgo platfform, TT weights outer ring....). Spending 16000 euros for a new combo, will probably add just minor improvements for this 10000 euros more.
It is true that we don't get as much for our money from a TT than for amps and especially for speakers. If I spend 10k more than my speakers price at PMC, I will be rewarded much more, that's for sure.
To go with Stephen, my previous LP12 set up cost me around 1000 euros with a new cart. My actual rig is slightly better. Not night and day. And I preferred the bloom of my LP12, although all around I'm happier with the better authority and precision of the Clearaudio. I would expect a big improvement for this new 16k euros set up, but indeed, deep inside I think that I will get the same kind of improvement than with my previous upgrade.

So you're right Julian, 20k for a TT rig is probably too much regarding my set up, and even besides any comparison.
BTW, Alberto and Stephen have lighted something in me and I want now to try other tube amps in my system, and get different colors of sound depending on my mood / records/ time of the day and son on.
My dream would be to have different systems ( living in an audio store actually) but my home does not allow that. So I'm thinking about multiple systems in the same room instead.
I will try some SET amps on my speakers, to see how they sound.
If I like the sound, I will keep them connected to the C1000, as for my 2301's.
And I will just have to change the speaker cables on the speakers to switch amps. So 20k will be just enough to buy a set of high end SET amps !
You're right once again.
We are completely nuts.
But you know what. My wife is jealous. She tells me all the time that she would like to be passionate for something as I am with audio.
As Dan would say, this is a great hobby ! Expensive for sure, but truly rewarding for each day of our life.
Cheers,

Jerome...sorry to sidetrack the discussion, but I will answer your question in Alberto's thread about why you need more than 10wpc SET amp since you almost never go over 3W on your MC2301s with your PMC speakers. You should be careful mating low watt SET amps with your PMCs for the following reasons (at least please try to audition with your speakers before buying):

1) tube amps in general do not like to see variations in impedance in the speaker load that they are partnered to. When you mate a high-powered tube amp (like your MC2301s), they usually also have overbuilt power supplies and when they see a low impedance at some point in the frequency band, they are still capable of delivering enough current so you will not experience any attenuation in that region of the frequency band where the amp is especially a tough load. Low watt SET amps will be much less capable of doing this. So if your PMCs have points in the frequency curve where they dip below 4ohms, the SET amp will not be able to deliver enough current (unless they have overbuilt power supplies) to meet the current demands at that point in the pass band, causing attenuation. Your PMC amps are a nominal 4ohm load, but they could easily dip below that at any point in the frequency band. Let's say they dip down to 3ohms or below at 80Hz (or even worse they dip below 3ohms and there is also a significant negative phase angle combo with that dip in impedance), then your SET amp will have to deliver current beyond its ability to deliver at that point. So what happens? The bass is attenuated and your speakers will sound thin and tipped up, meaning there is a suck out of bass info at 80Hz, and the speakers will have more midrange and treble info coming through than mid-bass, sounding thin.
2) You are right that your speakers are 89dB and Alberto's are 90dB but remember when you think about speakers sensitivity, and matching amps power rating to the speaker's sensitivity, we are talking about the speaker-amp match in the "power" delivery mode which is primarily trying to get at how loud an amp can drive its matching speaker. So you may not need a lot of watts (think power delivery) to drive your PMCs in a moderate sized room, but you may still have a shift in tonal balance (as described above) because of current delivery limitations of SET amps (think current delivery mode).
3) In power delivery mode, what the extra watts give you is dynamic headroom. An SET amp will most likely sound lifeless or dull because of a lack of dynamic range with your speakers.

In general when you think about tube amps, especially low watt SET tube amps, you want to partner them with 8ohm speakers that have relatively flat impedance across the frequency band and preferably that don't dip below 6ohms.

I just think if you are going down the SET amp route you should have an appropriate speaker match to get what the SET amps have to offer.

Just my 2c worth. Sorry to derail this discussion but I just realized I never answered your question in Albertos thread and since you mentioned wanting to explore SET amps here again, I thought I would answer. I hope this helps.

Cyril

[Tonepub]

I agree with Cyril on the SET thing. I had a couple of Wavac amps that were a lot of fun with 90db speakers for a while, they possessed an extraordinary amount of inner detail which was really captivating, but once I got an amplifier with high power and refinement, there was no looking back.

Now, every time I listen to small amps they are a ton of fun, but with the dynamic component and perhaps the control of the speakers that a small amp can't provide, I just can't do it anymore.

But like a certain kind of car or girlfriend, the SET thing is definitely worth the experience...

:)

[Jerome W]

Jeff,
Cyril, thanks a lot for your advices. I understand. Yes we derive a bit from the TT original question but that's ok for me !! :D
The Greek Shindo importer, adviced me these PP monoblocks, Corton Charlemagne EL34 at 25 W per channel, class A :
Shindo Labs Amplification (http://www.toneimports.com/shindo/shindoamplifiers.html#)
He told me that their sound is really special.
I think that the power should be adequate for listening at moderate volumes no ?

[cmalak]

Jerome...unfortunately no way of telling until you try them. Is there a way for you to see if there is anyone in Paris who owns these amps through a local forum that you can ask if they would be willing to bring the amp over to your place so you can audition? If not, you will have to trust the importer if he thinks the amps can adequately drive the speakers. There are no detailed specs on the web site link you posted beyond 25wpc class A. The other way to do it Jerome is if you have travel plans (either personal or business) that may take you to a country where you can audition the Shindo amps either with your PMC speakers, or speakers with similar specs, then you can test it out for yourself. Again, not ideal, but maybe an option. Ultimately, if you think there is a good resale value in france for Shindo products, you can always buy and if they are not what you are looking for resell for hopefully a minimal loss. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[Jerome W]

Jerome...unfortunately no way of telling until you try them. Is there a way for you to see if there is anyone in Paris who owns these amps through a local forum that you can ask if they would be willing to bring the amp over to your place so you can audition? If not, you will have to trust the importer if he thinks the amps can adequately drive the speakers. There are no detailed specs on the web site link you posted beyond 25wpc class A. The other way to do it Jerome is if you have travel plans (either personal or business) that may take you to a country where you can audition the Shindo amps either with your PMC speakers, or speakers with similar specs, then you can test it out for yourself. Again, not ideal, but maybe an option. Ultimately, if you think there is a good resale value in france for Shindo products, you can always buy and if they are not what you are looking for resell for hopefully a minimal loss. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Thank you Cyril, all good advices !
I will try to hear them somewhere but that won't be easy.
Yes resale value is very fair for Shindo gear in France, they are highly sought after, so this could be an option too : sell them if they don't satisfy me..,.

[Tonepub]

I agree with Cyril.

You'll only know once you hear them in your room with your speakers. Personally, I think they will be a big step down from your 2301's....

But you never know! Certainly a lot cheaper to re-tube!

:)

[Jerome W]

I agree with Cyril.

You'll only know once you hear them in your room with your speakers. Personally, I think they will be a big step down from your 2301's....

But you never know! Certainly a lot cheaper to re-tube!

:)

Hi Jeff,

We'll see !
I will call the former Shindo dealer in Paris and will ask him if he could sell at a fair price for me the Corton Charlemagne EL34 monoblocks ( these are the ones I'm about to order ) if they don't fit my needs. If his answer is yes ( and I suppose it is because these amps are highly wanted ), I will try them !
Stephen and Alberto lighted a fire that I just can't extinguish !

[Tonepub]

It's always great to investigate first hand. Even if you don't care for the Shindo's or they don't work in your system, it's another box to check off the list!

Depending on what the cost is though, you can get a very similar sound from a restored Marantz 8B. I know Alberto will freak out at my saying this, but the 8B is a very "delicious" amp.

[Jerome W]

It's always great to investigate first hand. Even if you don't care for the Shindo's or they don't work in your system, it's another box to check off the list!

Depending on what the cost is though, you can get a very similar sound from a restored Marantz 8B. I know Alberto will freak out at my saying this, but the 8B is a very "delicious" amp.

Interesting !
Thanks Jeff !

[KMC45]

Jerome,

There's a SME 30/2 V on audiogon for $16,500. Sellers right up the road from you in Belgium.

[Tonepub]

That's a great deal...

[Jerome W]

Jerome,

There's a SME 30/2 V on audiogon for $16,500. Sellers right up the road from you in Belgium.

Yes, nice deal ! Thanks !
But I only want a new table : I'm too bad to set it up...
Will check this one anyway....

[tjnif]

I have a Basis Debut signature vacuum table....IMO the SME's do not compare

[AudioNut]

I have a Basis Debut signature vacuum table....IMO the SME's do not compare

I have a Basis Debut V, Vacuum TT also and I can't think of any reason to ever think about anything else. I've had the table for almost ten years and it is "as good as new".

I am quite satisfied with the Basis and hope it will last forever. the performance is stunning and it is built like a tank.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[Rafale]

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication .....LP 12 SE.......Jérôme
Linn have sold more than 100 000 LP12, ask yourself why
The UK market is probably the hardest : Roksan, Funk Firm/pink triangle, Rega, SME, Nothingham A, Origin live, systemdeck, Townshed, Michell, Avid, Creek, EAR, Wilson B, garrard,lumley ....now add the overseas contenders .....
Philippe : happy LP12 owner since 1980

[metaphacts]

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication .....LP 12 SE.......Jérôme
Linn have sold more than 100 000 LP12, ask yourself why
The UK market is probably the hardest : Roksan, Funk Firm/pink triangle, Rega, SME, Nothingham A, Origin live, systemdeck, Townshed, Michell, Avid, Creek, EAR, Wilson B, garrard,lumley ....now add the overseas contenders .....
Philippe : happy LP12 owner since 1980


As a happy Linn owner you might want to research who designed the Keel and find out where the first ones were built and ask yourself why. :dunno:

[metaphacts]

I have a Basis Debut signature vacuum table....IMO the SME's do not compare

No problem. I'm on the other side of the fence. A Basis is a great table and sounds wonderful. Be happy with it. But don't bring it to my house. You might be in for an expensive surprise. :D

[Rafale]

As a happy Linn owner you might want to research who designed the Keel and find out where the first ones were built and ask yourself why. :dunno:

no need to search
we all know that SME is involved in metal work....

[Tonepub]

As you can see from the wide range of responses, there are quite a few excellent choices for $20k.

To argue about which is the best will just raise your blood pressure. I think when buying a table at this price level, I would be most concerned with dealer support, because you will probably need some setup help and you may even be interested in other cartridge and phono stage options. A great dealer (with a lot of setup expertise) will be able to help you optimize whatever choice you make.

While I like the AVID, and we've had people chime in with love for the SME, Basis, LP12 and others, I guarantee a poorly setup example of any of these tables will be highly disappointing, where you will probably be happy with either when set up properly. Granted the tonal character and strengths of each will be a little different, but again a good dealer should be able to help you sort through the maze.

[metaphacts]

As you can see from the wide range of responses, there are quite a few excellent choices for $20k.

To argue about which is the best will just raise your blood pressure. I think when buying a table at this price level, I would be most concerned with dealer support, because you will probably need some setup help and you may even be interested in other cartridge and phono stage options. A great dealer (with a lot of setup expertise) will be able to help you optimize whatever choice you make.

While I like the AVID, and we've had people chime in with love for the SME, Basis, LP12 and others, I guarantee a poorly setup example of any of these tables will be highly disappointing, where you will probably be happy with either when set up properly. Granted the tonal character and strengths of each will be a little different, but again a good dealer should be able to help you sort through the maze.

Are you sure you are a reviewer? This makes way too much sense my friend!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Rafale]

no need to search
we all know that SME is involved in metal work....

Oh and you have also SME plug on some LINN armcable
and it s not an issue....:thumbsup:

[metaphacts]

Oh and you have also SME plug on some LINN armcable
and it s not an issue....:thumbsup:

what?

Non knocking the Linn. Owned one 5 years by the time you got yours. Great table. But it is not magic nor is it unique.

Now Ivor is another story - Both magic and unique :D

[Rafale]

what?

Non knocking the Linn. Owned one 5 years by the time you got yours. Great table. But it is not magic nor is it unique.

Now Ivor is another story - Both magic and unique :D

YES Bill both are magique et unique ......in the hall of fame of the HIFI industry:thumbsup:
SME are mighty good .......but sorry i love the wood and this why i m in love with SF too

[Jerome W]

Hey Bill,

I'm glad to see that you're doing better :thumbsup: !

Jeff, you're right : excellent set up is the key.

Bill and Philippe : an SME TT and a LP12SE perfectly set up will both be excellent. The Linn is warmer I think ( I listened to a 20/2 2 years ago but I'm not sure if it was well set up ) and that is why I tend to love it. I think that the SME is more neutral.

Bill : why is Ivor so magic ?

[metaphacts]

Hey Bill,

I'm glad to see that you're doing better :thumbsup: !

Jeff, you're right : excellent set up is the key.

Bill and Philippe : an SME TT and a LP12SE perfectly set up will both be excellent. The Linn is warmer I think ( I listened to a 20/2 2 years ago but I'm not sure if it was well set up ) and that is why I tend to love it. I think that the SME is more neutral.

Bill : why is Ivor so magic ?

Simple. Back in the dark ages when all turntables were considered sonically the same except for rumble and wow and flutter figures, Ivor had the audacity to call BS and prove it. I met him at the 75 CES where he was demoing an LP-12 against a Technics SP10 in the Obsidian Base. Both tables were fitted with a Keith Monks arm and Supex moving coil, SD900 I believe. Of course when you would tell him that the difference you heard was really the cartridge, he simply switched the arm tubes - the KMAL had mercury contact baths that would cause a neighborhood wide hazerdous material shutdown today. The Linn continued to demolish the SP10.

Then I made the mistake of suggesting to a Scotch fueled Ivor that setup was important but not that important. I mean it's just a turntable. get the geometry and tracking force right and off you go. He proceeded to show me in no uncertain terms how each table set up step undone degraded the table's performance. Only when the table was fully undone did he go back to the things I thought wer all that mattered. Ivor repeated this demonstration to ridicule for years but to those who listened, he was the one that showed how sonically different the table itself could be.

Ivor is certainly a controversial figure but there is no doubt that he was the most ardent and vocal champion of turntable differences before most audiophiles even knew what a moving coil cartridge was.

As for set up, I've done hundreds more Linns than SMEs. Certainly the SMEs are easier to get to their baseline performance (though contrary to the myth, neither are difficult) but I also think there is more to wring out of the SME and not by a small amount.

But again take nothing from Ivor and the Linn. Without him most of the tables we know today would not exist.

[Jerome W]

Simple. Back in the dark ages when all turntables were considered sonically the same except for rumble and wow and flutter figures, Ivor had the audacity to call BS and prove it. I met him at the 75 CES where he was demoing an LP-12 against a Technics SP10 in the Obsidian Base. Both tables were fitted with a Keith Monks arm and Supex moving coil, SD900 I believe. Of course when you would tell him that the difference you heard was really the cartridge, he simply switched the arm tubes - the KMAL had mercury contact baths that would cause a neighborhood wide hazerdous material shutdown today. The Linn continued to demolish the SP10.

Then I made the mistake of suggesting to a Scotch fueled Ivor that setup was important but not that important. I mean it's just a turntable. get the geometry and tracking force right and off you go. He proceeded to show me in no uncertain terms how each table set up step undone degraded the table's performance. Only when the table was fully undone did he go back to the things I thought wer all that mattered. Ivor repeated this demonstration to ridicule for years but to those who listened, he was the one that showed how sonically different the table itself could be.

Ivor is certainly a controversial figure but there is no doubt that he was the most ardent and vocal champion of turntable differences before most audiophiles even knew what a moving coil cartridge was.

As for set up, I've done hundreds more Linns than SMEs. Certainly the SMEs are easier to get to their baseline performance (though contrary to the myth, neither are difficult) but I also think there is more to wring out of the SME and not by a small amount.

But again take nothing from Ivor and the Linn. Without him most of the tables we know today would not exist.

Very interesting story Bill.
Thank you !

[Tonepub]

Are you sure you are a reviewer? This makes way too much sense my friend!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'm a reviewer that actually BUYS gear. Big diff!

I've owned all of those turntables (except the current LP12) and they are all excellent, while having a different flavor.

I think what so many people lose track of is that people like what they like at the end of the day. The BMW guy is still going to like his M3 better than an Audi S4, even if three car magazines say the Audi is "better." And so it goes with hifi. I like what I like.

And hopefully, if I do my job well, I can tell you enough about a product so that you will take a listen for yourself and see if it lines up with what you like.

Personally, I hope the day of hifi reviewers as the "grand pubahs" of audio is coming to an end. I am always trying to build interest for what is out there, and help if I can. But at the end of the day, you're still going to buy what you like. If we've helped, that's awesome.

[metaphacts]

Personally, I hope the day of hifi reviewers as the "grand pubahs" of audio is coming to an end. I am always trying to build interest for what is out there, and help if I can. But at the end of the day, you're still going to buy what you like. If we've helped, that's awesome.

Perfectly stated. :tresbon:

[Rafale]

Simple. Back in the dark ages when all turntables were considered sonically the same except for rumble and wow and flutter figures, Ivor had the audacity to call BS and prove it. I met him at the 75 CES where he was demoing an LP-12 against a Technics SP10 in the Obsidian Base. Both tables were fitted with a Keith Monks arm and Supex moving coil, SD900 I believe. Of course when you would tell him that the difference you heard was really the cartridge, he simply switched the arm tubes - the KMAL had mercury contact baths that would cause a neighborhood wide hazerdous material shutdown today. The Linn continued to demolish the SP10.

Then I made the mistake of suggesting to a Scotch fueled Ivor that setup was important but not that important. I mean it's just a turntable. get the geometry and tracking force right and off you go. He proceeded to show me in no uncertain terms how each table set up step undone degraded the table's performance. Only when the table was fully undone did he go back to the things I thought wer all that mattered. Ivor repeated this demonstration to ridicule for years but to those who listened, he was the one that showed how sonically different the table itself could be.

Ivor is certainly a controversial figure but there is no doubt that he was the most ardent and vocal champion of turntable differences before most audiophiles even knew what a moving coil cartridge was.

As for set up, I've done hundreds more Linns than SMEs. Certainly the SMEs are easier to get to their baseline performance (though contrary to the myth, neither are difficult) but I also think there is more to wring out of the SME and not by a small amount.

But again take nothing from Ivor and the Linn. Without him most of the tables we know today would not exist.

it is not rocket science but the set up is the key
mechanical integrity is mandatory, you will loose musicality and energy if the deck is not perfectly torqued, for example if the bearing is overtighted on the subchassis or if the cartridge bolts are loose or overtighted on the headshell...
of course a precision dynamometric screwdriver is required for the set up
guess that unfortunately a high number of decks are underperforming.....
the best dealers knows all the torque value of the deck and the difference is huge and clearly audible
sorry for my bad english....let me know if i m unclear
Philippe

[metaphacts]

it is not rocket science but the set up is the key
mechanical integrity is mandatory, you will loose musicality and energy if the deck is not perfectly torqued, for example if the bearing is overtighted on the subchassis or if the cartridge bolts are loose or overtighted on the headshell...
of course a precision dynamometric screwdriver is required for the set up
guess that unfortunately a high number of decks are underperforming.....
the best dealers knows all the torque value of the deck and the difference is huge and clearly audible
sorry for my bad english....let me know if i m unclear
Philippe


See that's where we disagree. Most Linn tables (I refuse to call turntables decks) are not underperforming. Most tables bought used or from a non Linn dealer might be underperforming but that's about it. It is not rocket science nor is it very difficult.

I used to take my Linn to and from the shop every day in the trunk of my car. About once a month I would throw it up on the jig, check all the parameters (which more often than not needed no adjustment whatsoever) take it down and carry on.

Set up is the key yes. But set up for Linn is not the same as for SME is not the same as for many others. And if you need a torque wrench you probably haven't set up very many. But that is probably a better gauge for the uninitiated than Ivor's old degrees of tightness adage:Tight, F***ing Tight, Linn Tight, and Broken.

My point is that correct set up is what you do if you are a professional. Yes everything matters, but that doesn't make it difficult. It simply makes it precise.

[Rafale]

See that's where we disagree. Most Linn tables (I refuse to call turntables decks) are not underperforming. Most tables bought used or from a non Linn dealer might be underperforming but that's about it. It is not rocket science nor is it very difficult.

I used to take my Linn to and from the shop every day in the trunk of my car. About once a month I would throw it up on the jig, check all the parameters (which more often than not needed no adjustment whatsoever) take it down and carry on.

Set up is the key yes. But set up for Linn is not the same as for SME is not the same as for many others. And if you need a torque wrench you probably haven't set up very many. But that is probably a better gauge for the uninitiated than Ivor's old degrees of tightness adage:Tight, F***ing Tight, Linn Tight, and Broken.

My point is that correct set up is what you do if you are a professional. Yes everything matters, but that doesn't make it difficult. It simply makes it precise.

it is not difficult it is a question of knowledge
BTW this adage is very very obsolete know...
attention to details and understanding of the product
3 points cartridges and 3 points bearings need EXACTLY the same torque unless you are Peter Swain setting xx decks/day you need dynamometric tool
and you need to know the right torque values for every bolt and screw

[metaphacts]

it is not difficult it is a question of knowledge
you need to know the right torque values for every bolt and screw

Exactly. Let's just say that I was always better at Linns than I ever was at speakers. But then I expect more from a Linn than Linn dealers do. I'm weird that way.

[Rafale]

Exactly. Let's just say that I was always better at Linns than I ever was at speakers. But then I expect more from a Linn than Linn dealers do. I'm weird that way.

Bill remember that i'm not english native
if you want me to understand that LINN dealers are not equal regarding LP12 set up I totaly agree it is why my sondek is checked by an english dealer and i' m happy to pay the extra fees for that:yes:

[Rafale]

Bill remember that i'm not english native
if you want me to understand that LINN dealers are not equal regarding LP12 set up I totaly agree it is why my sondek is checked by an english dealer and i' m happy to pay the extra fees for that:yes:

my elipsas are waiting for you:thumbsup:

[metaphacts]

Bill remember that i'm not english native
if you want me to understand that LINN dealers are not equal regarding LP12 set up I totaly agree it is why my sondek is checked by an english dealer and i' m happy to pay the extra fees for that:yes:

It is sad that the Linn set up myth persists. I think any dealer that does not take the time to learn to do it correctly should be shot! That said, it is not difficult to do if you take your profession seriously.

[Rafale]

It is sad that the Linn set up myth persists. I think any dealer that does not take the time to learn to do it correctly should be shot! That said, it is not difficult to do if you take your profession seriously.

+1

[Still-One]

It is sad that the Linn set up myth persists. I think any dealer that does not take the time to learn to do it correctly should be shot! That said, it is not difficult to do if you take your profession seriously.
I must have bought from one of those underperforming dealers. I owned 2 Linn's, one in the late 70's and another in the late 90'.s You can fool me once and fool me twice, its not happening a third time.

Jim

[Tonepub]

Add me to the list of one that can't really optimize a Linn. Bill, if I ever get another one, maybe I can fly you out for a lesson!

:)

[AndyPandy]

Jef,
with the Avids, where do you place them on the continuum of TT's sound: warm and full like Linn & Nottingham, punchy and fast like Rega or more accurate like Clear Audio/VPI?
I'm out of vinyl for the time being but am curious as they look a very nicely designed table.

[Jerome W]

Jef,
with the Avids, where do you place them on the continuum of TT's sound: warm and full like Linn & Nottingham, punchy and fast like Rega or more accurate like Clear Audio/VPI?
I'm out of vinyl for the time being but am curious as they look a very nicely designed table.

Interesting question....
But my basic Linn / K9 had more punch than my P3 / Elys set up....

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......You are up early. :)

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......You are up early. :)

Dan, you noticed well :
Geminox wakes me up every morning to play.... The son of a B...!:)

[Jerome W]

Bill,

All this discussion with Philippe about the Linn set up was very interesting. Thanks !
This explains why many people do not like the Linn : too many of them are not set up right.
So Bill, if I understand correctly, the SME tables are easier to set up ( by the dealers I mean. I won't set up one by myself ) ?

[Tonepub]

Jef,
with the Avids, where do you place them on the continuum of TT's sound: warm and full like Linn & Nottingham, punchy and fast like Rega or more accurate like Clear Audio/VPI?
I'm out of vinyl for the time being but am curious as they look a very nicely designed table.

For me, the AVID (especially the Acutus SP) is the perfect mix of my two favorite turntables. It's got the weight of an SME 20 with the pace and speed of a Rega P9...

The Volvere SP does not have as big of a sound as the Acutus SP (but it's 1/4 the price), but still has the same combination, though a smaller amount.

And, they work perfectly with SME, TriPlanar or Rega arms. I've had excellent luck with all three.

[AndyPandy]

Thanks Jef!

[Puma Cat]

Very interesting story Bill.
Thank you !

Along these lines, and 5 years after Bill's story of when he met Ivor, I did something of a similar experiment with another, now famous TT.

A buddy of mine had a Kenwood Direct Drive TT, the one with the synthetic marble base (was it the KD500?) along with an Infinity Black Widow carbon fibre arm; reputed by all the American mags to be the hot-sh*t and SOTA at the time.

Anyway, I brought my newly acquired TT over for an evening's shoot-out that no one had ever heard of in the U.S. before: a Rega Planar 3 with an SME III arm. This was before Rega was known in the U.S. or even manufacturing arms...so at the time it was either an SME or the Grace 707 that most folks were using. We both using the same cartridge: a Sonus Gold modified by Frank Van Alstine.

Long story short: The Rega blew the Kenwood/Infinity into the frickin' weeds. My friend couldn't believe it; the Rega was markedly superior on every record we played.

The very next week my friend went out and bought a new TT...a Linn-Sondek LP12.

He still owns that Linn to this day.

Speaking of which, here is that Rega:

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Sonata%203.jpg

And, I still own the Rega to this day!

On a fun note, when is the last time you saw an SME V on a Rega Planar 3?

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/SME_V%20and%20Rega-2.jpg

I put the V on the Rega just for sh*ts and giggles while awaiting for the Michell Gyro to arrive. The black arm looks good on a black Rega! :thumbsup:

[Jerome W]

Wow,
Very nice Stephen !
First time I see an SME V on a P3 ! Quite an upgrade : 10 x the price of the TT ! and not to mention the cart...

[Puma Cat]

Yes, Jérôme, it was fun, but a temporary setup. Right now, a friend is borrowing my Rega, which has my Soundsmith-retipped Grace F9E Ruby cartridge on it.

[Jerome W]

Yes, Jérôme, it was fun, but a temporary setup. Right now, a friend is borrowing my Rega, which has my Soundsmith-retipped Grace F9E Ruby cartridge on it.

Your friend is lucky :thumbsup: !

[1KW]

I am enjoying the turntable most of you steered me towards on the 5 k turntable thread. I ended up picking up a new pre amp, putting in Gold Lion tubes then came the Gyro SE/ SME 309 with Shelter 501 which sounds as good or better than my MCD500. It took some break in time as you all said it would but now when I put on a new or even a clean old LP it has a real WOW factor. I have heard some expensive tables such as the SME 20 turntable with a SMEV tonearm and it is wonderful table . If you don't want to spend over 10 k or 20 k on a new table you can get the same performance with a pre owned table . Then again Serge sold his SME 20 /SME V combo and is using my old Technics SL1200 :D I am very very happy with my 5 k table but there a few other tables such as avid hifi ltd :: reference (http://www.avidhifi.co.uk/turntable_acutus_reference.htm) I would not mind owning just on looks alone :D

[Jerome W]

I am enjoying the turntable most of you steered me towards on the 5 k turntable thread. I ended up picking up a new pre amp, putting in Gold Lion tubes then came the Gyro SE/ SME 309 with Shelter 501 which sounds as good or better than my MCD500. It took some break in time as you all said it would but now when I put on a new or even a clean old LP it has a real WOW factor. I have heard some expensive tables such as the SME 20 turntable with a SMEV tonearm and it is wonderful table . If you don't want to spend over 10 k or 20 k on a new table you can get the same performance with a pre owned table . Then again Serge sold his SME 20 /SME V combo and is using my old Technics SL1200 :D I am very very happy with my 5 k table but there a few other tables such as avid hifi ltd :: reference (http://www.avidhifi.co.uk/turntable_acutus_reference.htm) I would not mind owning just on looks alone :D

Hi David,

I'm glad to know that you enjoy so much your GYRODEC SE : that is a great table :thumbsup: !

[MC352]

I really can't believe that we are discussing turntables that cost Twenty Thousand Dollars like they are no big deal - My gosh, I remember when I bought my first turntable - a Garrard type A for $125.00 and a Shure cartridge for $17.00 and, golly was I proud.

I just shopped for a week to buy a new Honda for my daughter and it cost less than $20,000. Heck I bought my first house for under $20,000 and it probably had a twenty year mortgage.

I think I worked the first four years out of college for about $20,000 - total for all four years!

And here we are - talking about $20,000 turntables and that is probably without a decent cartridge - which may be another $5,000 or so.

Am I the only one here that thinks that $20,000 is a hell of a lot of money?

No your not the only one.
+1

[metaphacts]

Along these lines, and 5 years after Bill's story of when he met Ivor, I did something of a similar experiment with another, now famous TT.

A buddy of mine had a Kenwood Direct Drive TT, the one with the synthetic marble base (was it the KD500?) along with an Infinity Black Widow carbon fibre arm; reputed by all the American mags to be the hot-sh*t and SOTA at the time.

Anyway, I brought my newly acquired TT over for an evening's shoot-out that no one had ever heard of in the U.S. before: a Rega Planar 3 with an SME III arm. This was before Rega was known in the U.S. or even manufacturing arms...so at the time it was either an SME or the Grace 707 that most folks were using. We both using the same cartridge: a Sonus Gold modified by Frank Van Alstine.

Long story short: The Rega blew the Kenwood/Infinity into the frickin' weeds. My friend couldn't believe it; the Rega was markedly superior on every record we played.

The very next week my friend went out and bought a new TT...a Linn-Sondek LP12.

He still owns that Linn to this day.

Speaking of which, here is that Rega:

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Sonata%203.jpg



And, I still own the Rega to this day!

On a fun note, when is the last time you saw an SME V on a Rega Planar 3?

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/SME_V%20and%20Rega-2.jpg

I put the V on the Rega just for sh*ts and giggles while awaiting for the Michell Gyro to arrive. The black arm looks good on a black Rega! :thumbsup:

Great story. Rega humbled many a table back then. In my early days at Sound Components (1978 on), we certainly had the KD500, but the table we sold in huge quantities was the Rega. At the time, it came fitted with a Lustre tonearm. Trying to remember, I think the Rega 2 was $298 with arm and the 3 was $398. We bought them without arm about 3/1 and sold them with Grace 707MkIIs primarily. We were always on the lookout for a better version of an aftermarket arm lift so we could sell the table to a wider audience.

I remember well the in store shootouts with the KD500/BlackWidow/Sonus Blue combos. Avid magazine readers insisted that if we would just change the mat, the Kenwood would win. Of course it didn't and many could not accept the results, "But XYZ said.." Was interesting to see how little people were willing to question the magazines, even then. Pretty humorous thinking back on it now.

[Rafale]

Jérôme
browse the Sonus Faber official website ie the Value fold
and see the turntable:banana:... Just kidding:nono:
see you later
all the best

[Rafale]

Home English | Sonus Faber (http://www.sonusfaber.com/en/home/)

[Jerome W]

I saw it Philippe. And the cart is the Akyva !

[rockitman]

My $20K table if I had to do one right now would be:

Clearaudio Innovation Wood: $11,000
Clearaudio Universal Arm w/ VTA Lift: $4,500
Shelter Harmony Cart: $4,700

[Jerome W]

My $20K table if I had to do one right now would be:

Clearaudio Innovation Wood: $11,000
Clearaudio Universal Arm w/ VTA Lift: $4,500
Shelter Harmony Cart: $4,700

Nice !
I 'm about to order Howie's set up :
Avid Acutus SP
SME V
BENZ Micro LP

[MC352]

You folks spending 20K on TT setups. What size LP collections do you have?

[Jerome W]

You folks spending 20K on TT setups. What size LP collections do you have?

Chuck, the quantity does not matter.
The quality does. Like for the years of our life.
I have more joy with my 200 vinyls than with my 670 CDs.
A friend of mine had 20 vinyls when he bought his LP12SE. He now has around 500. I will buy more vinyls if I need to, that's all.

[MC352]

Jérôme,

I understand your point.

I was looking at this from a more practical point of view.

But perhaps, practicality isn't part of the decision process to spend $20K on a TT.

[Jerome W]

Jérôme,

I understand your point.

I was looking at this from a more practical point of view.

But perhaps, practicality isn't part of the decision process to spend $20K on a TT.

You're right Chuck.
Nothing logical here. We're all nuts.
Many people outside AA might consider that you have been crazy to spend all this money in your system, just to listen to music ! how many CDs do you have ?? :D

[MC352]

You're right Chuck.
Nothing logical here. We're all nuts.


Indeed :yes::D

It's fun being nuts.

[Jerome W]

Indeed :yes::D

It's fun being nuts.

Oh YEAH :) !

[rockitman]

You folks spending 20K on TT setups. What size LP collections do you have?

I haven't done a count yet, but I have spent at least $15K on Ebay for lots of NM to sealed lovelies of my favorite artists from the 60's and 70's since Feb of this year. Bought the Mofi Beatles collection, Parlophone blue box collection, Stones collection and many other Mofi, 1st pressings, jap Pressings (all my steely dan) ect...I'm a sick man, but never felt so good...:thumbsup:

[JemHadar]

Nice !
I 'm about to order Howie's set up :
Avid Acutus SP
SME V
BENZ Micro LP

I'm still in the stage of trying to justify the expense :headscrt:
It will most probably be a shootout between the Acutus and the SME20/3

since there will be no more budget left...I'm planning on starting with a Benz Ace SL

Please do post some pictures Jérôme, when the Avid is up and running :yes:

[Jerome W]

I'm still in the stage of trying to justify the expense :headscrt:
It will most probably be a shootout between the Acutus and the SME20/3

since there will be no more budget left...I'm planning on starting with a Benz Ace SL

Please do post some pictures Jérôme, when the Avid is up and running :yes:

I will Jacques !

[cmalak]

I haven't done a count yet, but I have spent at least $15K on Ebay for lots of NM to sealed lovelies of my favorite artists from the 60's and 70's since Feb of this year. Bought the Mofi Beatles collection, Parlophone blue box collection, Stones collection and many other Mofi, 1st pressings, jap Pressings (all my steely dan) ect...I'm a sick man, but never felt so good...:thumbsup:

How many LPs alltogether? Just curious...

[cmalak]

Jacques...what phono amp will you be using with either table and the Benz cart?

[PHC1]

And my journey, having went from Clearaudio mid-line to the expensive SME 20/V/Dynavector XX2 combo and back all the way down to Technics SL-1200, had really cleared my head. :yes: Yes, in absolute terms the top TTs do outperform the budget setups but at a very steep rate of diminishing returns. The essence of music still exists even with the budget tables minus a few ounces of detail, resolution, bass authority, imaging, etc. That however
didn't stop me from enjoying the music on the budget table either. Quite the opposite, I was amazed how good even a lowly table/arm/cart can sound for so much less money. :thumbsup: Those music sessions put a smile on my face as well.

I for one, am taking a different approach, seeking total system synergy without having to spend an arm and a leg. When the result is greater than the sum of it's parts, which does exist in audio, I'll feel a sense of accomplishment. :thumbsup: When a table is setup properly and everything gels in the system, well, that my friends is worth more than a very expensive setup that does not. That's not to say that someone who wants to spend big bucks and will set it up properly is wrong in their approach. It depends on what you are after really. :yes: There seems to be quite a few seasoned vinyl fans that are going after vintage stuff. :scratch2: Maybe they're on to something. I'm willing to try. :yes:

[Jerome W]

And my journey, having went from Clearaudio mid-line to the expensive SME 20/V/Dynavector XX2 combo and back all the way down to Technics SL-1200, had really cleared my head. :yes: Yes, in absolute terms the top TTs do outperform the budget setups but at a very steep rate of diminishing returns. The essence of music still exists even with the budget tables minus a few ounces of detail, resolution, bass authority, imaging, etc. That however
didn't stop me from enjoying the music on the budget table either. Quite the opposite, I was amazed how good even a lowly table/arm/cart can sound for so much less money. :thumbsup: Those music sessions put a smile on my face as well.

I for one, am taking a different approach, seeking total system synergy without having to spend an arm and a leg. When the result is greater than the sum of it's parts, which does exist in audio, I'll feel a sense of accomplishment. :thumbsup: When a table is setup properly and everything gels in the system, well, that my friends is worth more than a very expensive setup that does not. That's not to say that someone who wants to spend big bucks and will set it up properly is wrong in their approach. It depends on what you are after really. :yes: There seems to be quite a few seasoned vinyl fans that are going after vintage stuff. :scratch2: Maybe they're on to something. I'm willing to try. :yes:

Well stated Serge, as always. :thumbsup:

I 've had also budget tables and I can confirm your feelings. Sometimes we buy what is supposed to be the best or among the best, just because life is short and we want a gift or a reward. Certainly not because we "need" it, neither that the value of it is really justified compared to less expensive gear.

Before ordering the Avid big baby, I will listen to my TT with the ARC REF 2 PHONO.

[Jerome W]

But Serge, I would add something :

on high level systems as ours, small differences in sound make finally big ones on the long run.
Over my limited years of experience in upgrading my HiFi system, I 've learned how to appreciate and cherish those "small differences" in sound, but those differences got me closer to the musical "Nirvana". My ears are not the same now.
Of course I'm happy with "small systems" and I can enjoy the music with them too, but when I go back to the references, whoaa.... I say " Damn, I was missing that....!"

[two dot]

Serge,

I think you might be on to something...

I have yet to hear a TT that provides the detail, pace, timing, and overall listenability as my 1958 Garrard 301... albeit, upgraded and modified by Ken Shindo.

[Tonepub]

And my journey, having went from Clearaudio mid-line to the expensive SME 20/V/Dynavector XX2 combo and back all the way down to Technics SL-1200, had really cleared my head. :yes: Yes, in absolute terms the top TTs do outperform the budget setups but at a very steep rate of diminishing returns. The essence of music still exists even with the budget tables minus a few ounces of detail, resolution, bass authority, imaging, etc. That however
didn't stop me from enjoying the music on the budget table either. Quite the opposite, I was amazed how good even a lowly table/arm/cart can sound for so much less money. :thumbsup: Those music sessions put a smile on my face as well.

I for one, am taking a different approach, seeking total system synergy without having to spend an arm and a leg. When the result is greater than the sum of it's parts, which does exist in audio, I'll feel a sense of accomplishment. :thumbsup: When a table is setup properly and everything gels in the system, well, that my friends is worth more than a very expensive setup that does not. That's not to say that someone who wants to spend big bucks and will set it up properly is wrong in their approach. It depends on what you are after really. :yes: There seems to be quite a few seasoned vinyl fans that are going after vintage stuff. :scratch2: Maybe they're on to something. I'm willing to try. :yes:


I'd really have to disagree with this. With six turntables on hand here, from a Dual 1218 up to the AVID Acutus Reference SP, the difference between the budget tables and the better ones has been huge. As it has been with some very good yet inexpensive phono stages.

The budget tables have been fun on my budget system, but in the big system, it's like someone went under the hood of my Porsche and took four of the six sparkplug wires off.

If you aren't hearing a major diff between a budget table and a fairly high end one, you've set something up wrong, or you have lousy software, because the difference is pretty staggering.

[PHC1]

But Serge, I would add something :

on high level systems as ours, small differences in sound make finally big ones on the long run.
Over my limited years of experience in upgrading my HiFi system, I 've learned how to appreciate and cherish those "small differences" in sound, but those differences got me closer to the musical "Nirvana". My ears are not the same now.
Of course I'm happy with "small systems" and I can enjoy the music with them too, but when I go back to the references, whoaa.... I say " Damn, I was missing that....!"
Jerome, I don't want to sound like a hypocrite, I also enjoy big, bold dynamics, substantial SPL so you can feel as well as hear the music, resolution so that I can hear a gnat's fart on the windowsill of the recording studio. To be blown away with the width and depth of the soundstage that seems to defy the boundaries of the room. I have that in my theater that has been acoustically treated with the help of ASC to the tune of $20k and plenty of Bryston brutes that lock in with excellent synergy with the full compliment of 7 Sonus Faber speakers with Elipsas up front doing L and R duty. The kick in the gut is provided by JL Audio F212 beast of a sub. Krell pre/pro provides all the D to A conversion with supreme resolution. The results are jaw dropping for Blu movies multichannel and 2 Channel CD playback. I couldn't be happier. This system allows me to hear every minor change, good or bad.

Then there is the "analog room" where I listen to vinyl. This room has a more intimate space, it provides me with the type of music I listen to really relax and to be deeply moved and touched by it's message. This I find to be most effective with Class A or low powered SET tube setup and speakers that are appropriate for that type of gear. Over the years I've always found something very special and magical about this type of playback gear. It just sounds more human and my ears are able to digest the sound without complaints. :D My needs and expectations are different in this room. I want to hear music that comes across as natural, unforced, relaxed and without drawing attention to anything specific, just give me that musical message, the very essence that to me exists in the harmonics that are rich, tonal balance that has natural warmth, substance and body, just like it does in real life.

Lamm has taught me the parameters I mentioned above really exist in audio, much to my surprise. The quality and texture of bass alone was an eye opening experience when I had Lamm and tried analog. I've never heard bass like that with most CD's, the illusion that the drum kit was not only in the room but was actually in the room and sitting on my floor, that's how the speakers energized the room differently with analog. I've been hooked ever since. That was a class A hybrid amp. The recent SET Ayon amp has shown me that there is yet even more magic that exists in the midband, it breathed life into vocals that made them even more hauntingly real, even more emotions and essence of music poured fourth, the instruments playing in the same range became more real, more palpable. SET amp breathed real life into music.

Two different systems, two different results. I have learned to enjoy each one differently with different music. :yes:

[PHC1]

Serge,

I think you might be on to something...

I have yet to hear a TT that provides the detail, pace, timing, and overall listenability as my 1958 Garrard 301... albeit, upgraded and modified by Ken Shindo.

Stephen, I've heard plenty of SME, Avid, Brinkman, Basis, ProJect, SOTA, Simon Yorke, Transrotor, Spiral Groove, Acoustic Signature, Rega, Clearaudio and a few others that I can't even remember now. All different flavors, could hardly say I was really disappointed with any of them. They were all very good. :yes: But I have not had the pleasure of auditioning a Shindo/Garrard yet... :tears: Have not heard many vintage tables period. I am very curious to see why some after having top notch tables like TW Acustic Raven's, upper end Clearaudio, Basis, etc, would even own or mention that they like the vintage tables. :scratch2: I am willing to find out though. :yes:

[PHC1]

I'd really have to disagree with this. With six turntables on hand here, from a Dual 1218 up to the AVID Acutus Reference SP, the difference between the budget tables and the better ones has been huge. As it has been with some very good yet inexpensive phono stages.

The budget tables have been fun on my budget system, but in the big system, it's like someone went under the hood of my Porsche and took four of the six sparkplug wires off.

If you aren't hearing a major diff between a budget table and a fairly high end one, you've set something up wrong, or you have lousy software, because the difference is pretty staggering.

Yep, that must be it, lousy new LPs and wrong setup. I'll toss my Dr.Feickert and MINT LP Best Tractor protractors out, erase the Wally tools setups I have observed out of my memory, throw away my test LPs as well as all the new vinyl I have bought that I think sounds better than anything else I've heard and start from scratch.

What table do you recommend? I remember you gave the Spiral Groove an analog product of the year award only to sell it the next year at less than half the price. What's the flavor of the month in tables now? :D I already had the SME20 so that won't do. Is it Avid now? :smoking:

[Masterlu]

Yep, that must be it, lousy new LPs and wrong setup. I'll toss my Dr.Feickert and MINT LP Best Tractor protractors out, erase the Wally tools setups I have observed out of my memory, throw away my test LPs as well as all the new vinyl I have bought that I think sounds better than anything else I've heard and start from scratch.

What table do you recommend? I remember you gave the Spiral Groove an analog product of the year award only to sell it the next year at less than half the price. What's the flavor of the month in tables now? :D I already had the SME20 so that won't do. Is it Avid now? :smoking:

Why the sarcasm Serge?

[PHC1]

Why the sarcasm Serge?

Did that come across sarcastic? :scratch2: I was being serious. :yes: One has to spend mega bucks to get great results. :thumbsup: If Jeff thought my vinyl was no good as was my setup because I heard what I heard and got the results after endless tweaking of both tables, it must be so. :yes: I just wanted to know what the latest flavor is. :smoking:

[Masterlu]

Yup, it did come across sarcastic. He is entitled to his opinion, as you are the same.

[PHC1]

Yup, it did come across sarcastic. He is entitled to his opinion, as you are the same.

Then we are all on the same page. :thumbsup:

[Tonepub]

Yep, that must be it, lousy new LPs and wrong setup. I'll toss my Dr.Feickert and MINT LP Best Tractor protractors out, erase the Wally tools setups I have observed out of my memory, throw away my test LPs as well as all the new vinyl I have bought that I think sounds better than anything else I've heard and start from scratch.

What table do you recommend? I remember you gave the Spiral Groove an analog product of the year award only to sell it the next year at less than half the price. What's the flavor of the month in tables now? :D I already had the SME20 so that won't do. Is it Avid now? :smoking:

Actually, you aren't really paying attention. I had the Spiral Groove for over two years. I sold it at less than half the price because that's all the used market would bear. I got the AVID and liked it better, but never said that the SG was junk. I'd hardly call that "flavor of the month." I tend to rotate my reference components on a 2 - 3 year basis. No offense, but I don't know many audiophiles that even keep gear THAT long.

And I never said the SME20 was junk either. I believe as part of the "best turntable for 20k" thread I had mentioned somewhere that all of these tables were excellent. I've owned SME with excellent luck, I just prefer the sound of the AVID in my system. The main reason I got rid of the Spiral Groove table was that it will only work with the TriPlanar arm or SG's arm, which at the time of my selling the SG, still wasn't finished. (Allen Perkins has been promising this arm since well BEFORE I purchased my SG, so I had kind of given up at that point) As part of my reference setup, I have five SME arms (two V's, two 309s and a rebuilt 3009 on the way), so in the ultimate scheme of things, a table that wouldn't allow mounting of an SME arm didn't make sense. I think you mentioned in your own thread that you had certainly made some table changes over the last few years, so why is it so wrong for me to do that?

Because I review gear for a living, I'm always looking for a way to not only streamline my setup but make it easier to find components, but also make things interchangeable so that I can compare other components and pressings for my work.

What I did say was that if you couldn't hear a big difference between a budget table and your SME20 that your SME20 is set up wrong or you don't have very good software and I stick by that assessment.

If I only needed one turntable to listen to music and did not evaluate components for a living, I could live with either the SG, the SME 20 or the AVID Acutus, but again after owning all three, I prefer the AVID in my current system.

Rather jumpy I think.

[Masterlu]

http://www.moosaic.imonfort.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/20090416-img_2121-fullmoon001.jpg

Besides, we all know BSR makes the best tables. :lmao:

[PHC1]

Actually, you aren't really paying attention. I had the Spiral Groove for over two years. I sold it at less than half the price because that's all the used market would bear. I got the AVID and liked it better, but never said that the SG was junk. I'd hardly call that "flavor of the month." I tend to rotate my reference components on a 2 - 3 year basis. No offense, but I don't know many audiophiles that even keep gear THAT long.

And I never said the SME20 was junk either. I believe as part of the "best turntable for 20k" thread I had mentioned somewhere that all of these tables were excellent. I've owned SME with excellent luck, I just prefer the sound of the AVID in my system. The main reason I got rid of the Spiral Groove table was that it will only work with the TriPlanar arm or SG's arm, which at the time of my selling the SG, still wasn't finished. (Allen Perkins has been promising this arm since well BEFORE I purchased my SG, so I had kind of given up at that point) As part of my reference setup, I have five SME arms (two V's, two 309s and a rebuilt 3009 on the way), so in the ultimate scheme of things, a table that wouldn't allow mounting of an SME arm didn't make sense. I think you mentioned in your own thread that you had certainly made some table changes over the last few years, so why is it so wrong for me to do that?

Because I review gear for a living, I'm always looking for a way to not only streamline my setup but make it easier to find components, but also make things interchangeable so that I can compare other components and pressings for my work.

What I did say was that if you couldn't hear a big difference between a budget table and your SME20 that your SME20 is set up wrong or you don't have very good software and I stick by that assessment.

If I only needed one turntable to listen to music and did not evaluate components for a living, I could live with either the SG, the SME 20 or the AVID Acutus, but again after owning all three, I prefer the AVID in my current system.

Rather jumpy I think.

Jeff, I never said I didn't hear a difference in my original post. I am not completely deaf yet. I said the big buck tables will outperform budget setups but at very steep rate of diminishing returns. Obviously the words, "BIG", "HUGE", "Night and Day difference", "In a different league", etc... are used very often when one sells or reviews gear. Define "HUGE" please... Is a Clearaudio Concept or VPI Classic not able to convey the essence of music? Is something HUGE missing from the sound? Are notes and vocals omitted from the LP with the budget setups? Is the difference HUGE between the Avid and Spiral Groove or SME? What is that HUGE difference?

My own Clearaudio Performance after meticulous and obsessive setup sounded very, very close to the SME. The SME was also obsessively, compulsively setup and tweaked around with every parameter available to me. Suspension, SME V arm and cart setup were meticulously setup using the best protractors and tools I could find. Bill Peugh was consulted as well in person and gave me a few great tips on setup in terms of suspension and fluid damping of the V arm.

That the SME had a different flavor, I will admit to that readily. Darker, smoother, creamier, dreamier, more laid back once dialed in to my preference. Clearaudio was slightly more forward, incisive and livelier sounding and that was with an MM cart. Preference and system synergy would come into play here. Bass was stupendous from both, resolution, detail, soundstage, was very close. I honestly think that the biggest difference was in the Dynavector XX2MKII cart vs Maestro Wood than the tables themselves after the Clearaudio was mounted on a Gingko Cloud so both were sort of "suspended" in a way.

Technics SL1200 sounded like crap at first when I got it already setup. I would call that a huge difference! Guess what, just like I suspected, the cartridge was way off. Previous owner was not very experienced and didn't have proper tools. Those paper protractors that are printed off the internet are wonderful... NOT. I set it up with a Dr.Feickert protractor, played around with VTF and VTA and bingo! Awesome sound that is less resolving, dynamically less impressive but ultimately very enjoyable and forgiving and a tonal balance that is rich and creamy.

What is it that we want or need out of very expensive setups? Ultimate resolution, dynamics, imaging or is it OK to have a table that one can listen to for hours on end and be captivated and moved by the music on the LP even if it doesn't quite have it all?

IMHO, whatever gear moves you, be it a $500 table or $50K and makes you listen for hours on end, that is HUGE. Not the little things that might make a difference when one sits and analyzes the sound... Of course that is necessary in your profession, otherwise how could you convey the difference between the products you review?

I am not a reviewer, I am listener. :D Whatever moves me is good enough. :yes:

[PHC1]

The budget tables have been fun on my budget system, but in the big system, it's like someone went under the hood of my Porsche and took four of the six sparkplug wires off.



Really? :D Think that is a fair analogy? :scratch2: I guess all the budget guys are missing a lot of music... Can you even start your Porsche with only 2 sparkplug wires on?

[Tonepub]

Again, you aren't paying attention. I did not say the differences between the AVID, SG and SME were huge, I said (repeatedly) that they were all excellent tables, and I know both here and elsewhere that I've said purchasing any of these three tables was not a bad move.

However, on my system, something pretty major is missing from the sound of a VPI Classic or a Clearaudio Concept. Big dynamics, big weight and big air/soundstage to the presentation.

And I don't feel that the difference between a $1500 table and a $20k table is a "steep rate of diminishing returns" either. One more example of your not paying attention. We never use this terminology in our editorial content and we've only used the word "Best" once in six years (and almost 400 product reviews) I defy you to find any other publication that has shown that level of restraint.

Sorry, but a $500 table doesn't get the job done for me anymore. It doesn't mean I can't write about it and describe it in the context of other $300 - $1000 turntables, because that's my job. I'm not motivated or captivated (who's using the big, descriptive words now?) by a budget table.

What I fail to understand is the passive/aggressive analysis. First you defend the meticulous setup of your SME20, then you come full circle and say "whatever moves me is enough."

At least I've picked a spot.

[PHC1]

Again, you aren't paying attention. I did not say the differences between the AVID, SG and SME were huge, I said (repeatedly) that they were all excellent tables, and I know both here and elsewhere that I've said purchasing any of these three tables was not a bad move.

However, on my system, something pretty major is missing from the sound of a VPI Classic or a Clearaudio Concept. Big dynamics, big weight and big air/soundstage to the presentation.

And I don't feel that the difference between a $1500 table and a $20k table is a "steep rate of diminishing returns" either. One more example of your not paying attention. We never use this terminology in our editorial content and we've only used the word "Best" once in six years (and almost 400 product reviews) I defy you to find any other publication that has shown that level of restraint.

Sorry, but a $500 table doesn't get the job done for me anymore. It doesn't mean I can't write about it and describe it in the context of other $300 - $1000 turntables, because that's my job. I'm not motivated or captivated (who's using the big, descriptive words now?) by a budget table.

What I fail to understand is the passive/aggressive analysis. First you defend the meticulous setup of your SME20, then you come full circle and say "whatever moves me is enough."

At least I've picked a spot.

Jeff, it's your job and your livelihood to obtain gear for reviews, review it, collect advertisement fees, get professional discount on gear if you decide to keep it, maintain relationships and protect reputations of your advertisers, etc... It's a lot of work. It's only a hobby for me. I can't seem to pay attention anyways. So what's the point of trying to prove a point? You win! :thumbsup: Enjoy your Big system! :music:

[JemHadar]

Jacques...what phono amp will you be using with either table and the Benz cart?

I will use the phono stage of the McIntosh C1000 (solid state version)...if I go ahead with this adventure.

...the voice of reason has started a counter offensive...still having a hard time justifying the expense.

In the meantime I bought a humble Grado Reference Signature 1 MM for my SME III equiped vintage Thorens 126 mk3...and the experience is very satisfying.

...at the end of the day...it is all about the music :yes:

THX

[cmalak]

I will use the phono stage of the McIntosh C1000 (solid state version)

THX

Got it. Thx :thumbsup:

[Jerome W]

Sorry to go back on this but I can't remain silent.

The discussion between Jeff and Serge shows something very important, which should not be discussed in AA imo.
To me, you 're both right.
But the problem comes from this old story of "diminishing returns".
What is a "good value" in audio ?
No answer to that question.
High End audio is a Luxury : per se , it is not necessary.
We can know what time it is just by looking at our cell phone. Still, many people buy old fashioned mechanical watches, while they could just buy a Swatch.
Driving from point A to point B, especially in the US where speed limit is low and fines are high, does not need a Ferrari. You can do the same in any car.

What we get for our money, and the impression of satisfaction towards the amount spent, is only a PERSONAL and STRICTLY INDIVIDUAL feeling.
Serge feels that high end TTs don't give improvements compared to the price paid, relative to budget TTs. And Jeff does not agree. Period. There is no discussion possible on this.

When I bought my Clearaudio, and added all the accessories ( Gingko platform, TT weights outer ring....), the total cost was around 5500 euros.
I had the feeling that it was giving me around 90 % of what the LP12SE costing 16000 euros gives to my friend. So I thought " I'm smarter. Better value. Can use this money elsewhere".
Now guess what ? for some mysterious reason ( maybe I'm a bit richer, maybe only high end audio really excites me....) , I have the feeling that these 10 % left of quality have a justified value. Go figure !
Of course, it drives my wife crazy, and what she tells me looks closely like what Serge said :D
And I'm going deeper into this analog hole because I just received my ARC PHONO 2 : 10300 euros ! If I buy the Avid set up I have in my mind, at 15000 euros, I will have an analog set up costing 25000 euros :drool:

Serge, you may consider that I'm nuts and that a Technics perfectly set-up would give me 95 % of this for no more than 2 or 3k. I will not judge you and argue. You think the same as my wife and I won't argue with her either :D !

[jwhite613]

:goodpost:

Jerome... Smart move by not arguing with the wife, you always lose! :D

[Puma Cat]

:goodpost:

Jerome... Smart move by not arguing with the wife, you always lose! :D

Reminds me of some of the lines in that great Chris Rock show on HBO "Never Scared"! :)

[dpod4]

I enjoyed reading this thread. I ventured back into analogue last summer picking up a used Basis 2001 table with RB301 tonearm, then upgraded to Basis Vector 4. Kurt Doslu at Echo Audio in Portland set up my table/arm/cartridge each time, and I bet next to AJ Conti setting up his own table, my Basis was totally dialed and sounded great. I got the upgrade bug and landed a great deal on a Clearaudio Innovation Wood and a Graham Phantom II B44 tonearm with Benz LP-S cartridge. Everything got bigger and better, and the pitch/speed stability and grip on each note with no smearing was worth the upgrade. Now I'm adding a Schick 12" tonearm with Miyajima Premium Mono BE cartridge as a second arm so will get to enjoy mono recordings. I also lucked out and was able to buy a modified vintage table from Atma-Sphere (Empire 208) with a Triplanar arm, and I'll put a Soundsmith Ebony Voice cartridge on it. Experiencing different analogue rigs is fun, and I like the mechanical aspect of it (I like mechanical watches and I still shoot in film...medium format). But most importantly at the end of the day, there is an enjoyment I get every day from listening to vinyl on a good system that is unrivaled, no matter which table I might have in my system. And now my kids (8, 12, 14) are turned onto vinyl so they will inherit this stuff one day and I'll pass the torch.

[cmalak]

dpod4...welcome to AA :wave:. Very nice analog rigs you have there. Tell us about the rest of your system.

[Tonepub]

Hi Dpod...

Kurt is an excellent TT setup guy and a good friend of mine. Let's get together and have a beer sometime.

[two dot]

I enjoyed reading this thread. I ventured back into analogue last summer picking up a used Basis 2001 table with RB301 tonearm, then upgraded to Basis Vector 4. Kurt Doslu at Echo Audio in Portland set up my table/arm/cartridge each time, and I bet next to AJ Conti setting up his own table, my Basis was totally dialed and sounded great. I got the upgrade bug and landed a great deal on a Clearaudio Innovation Wood and a Graham Phantom II B44 tonearm with Benz LP-S cartridge. Everything got bigger and better, and the pitch/speed stability and grip on each note with no smearing was worth the upgrade. Now I'm adding a Schick 12" tonearm with Miyajima Premium Mono BE cartridge as a second arm so will get to enjoy mono recordings. I also lucked out and was able to buy a modified vintage table from Atma-Sphere (Empire 208) with a Triplanar arm, and I'll put a Soundsmith Ebony Voice cartridge on it. Experiencing different analogue rigs is fun, and I like the mechanical aspect of it (I like mechanical watches and I still shoot in film...medium format). But most importantly at the end of the day, there is an enjoyment I get every day from listening to vinyl on a good system that is unrivaled, no matter which table I might have in my system. And now my kids (8, 12, 14) are turned onto vinyl so they will inherit this stuff one day and I'll pass the torch.

Welcome dpod4...

Great post!!!

[dpod4]

Thanks, tonepub. Your magazine is my favorite...I read Tone Audio via Zino on my ipad. As others have commented here, I love the fact you don't write like the normal reviewers...you keep it real. You put your money where your mouth is....no pandering, just honest feedback and recommendations on gear and music...KUDOS for that. Would love to buy you a beer and pick your brain for sure.

[dpod4]

Thanks for the warm welcom, cmalak. I tried to update my profile with system info but I think my newbie status keeps me from doing so. Right now, I'm listening to Ben Webster (stereo) for the first time (amazing sonics and music) on the following system:

- Clearaudio Innovation Wood
- Graham II B44 with Benz LP-S (a killer cartridge) with Tara Labs Zero phono IC
- about to receive Schick 12" arm + Miyajima Premium Mono Be, and Atma-Sphere 208 + Triplanar + Soundsmith Voice Ebony
- Herron VTPH-2 phono preamp (Keith Herron and his products are hero status in my book)
- VAC Renaissance Mk III preamp
- VAC 300.1a amp (VAC gear took it all to a new unbelievable level)
- Esoteric MG20 speakers/stands (speed of maggies, dynamics of box, monitor imaging)
- Harmonic Technology Magic Link II interconnects and speaker wire
- Silkworm+ IC between VACs (AMAZING interconnect...puts lipstick on the singer, and smoke in the air, and removes people at the table between me and the bass player)
- Velodyne DD+15 sub dialed in real low
- Audience AR12 power conditioner and powerchord "e"s for components
- Symposium Ultra shelves and Quadraspire racks
- Digital = PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC + Bridge, and Modwright Sony 5400es (amazing)

[dpod4]

two dot

I covet your shindo table. Shindo was partly the inspiration for me getting into tubes as well as picking up a vintage table. thanks for that!

[dpod4]

Apologies -- I meant to post/attach each reply to the comments directed to me versus in random order via quick reply.

[Formerly YB-2]

A bit dated (what's 8+ years between friends.......), but had the opportunity to listen to a Brinkman DD TT/TA combination yesterday and were I in the market for a new TT think it would be the one. $9K for the TT and $4K for the Brinkman TA. A delight to use and even better to listen to thru a Lehmann Decade preamp and Luxman solid-state preamp/tube power amp combo. Listened thru Devore 0/96 & Harbeth HL-5 (couldn't keep up with the Devore) speakers. The Kiseki Purple Heart N.S. cartridge was sublime.

[Legrace]

The Kiseki Purple Heart N.S. cartridge was sublime.

+1!