Learning

[Gordon]

Not to step on David's thread but, if I were to say would a budget of 5K to purchase a TT/Arm and cart along with a cleaner be a fair price leap into the vinyl world? If you look at my sig, you'll see my gear and I want to give vinyl a fair shake compared to the rest of my gear. If so, what pieces would you recommend to stay within budget? I'd be willing to buy used if the seller was a member of this group. If not, then it would have to be new.

Gordon

[Puma Cat]

$5K would get you a very fair leap into the vinyl world. In fact, you could make an excellent leap by starting with a Clearaudio Concept and their Concept moving coil for $2K.

Or, you could so something similar to what David did, get a Michell Gyro SE MkII for $2500, a clean, used SME 309 used for around $1500 or so, and a clean, used Shelter 501 MkII for $500.

[Gordon]

Ivan, I saw the popcorn before you deleted it!

Gordon

[Gordon]

$5K would get you a very fair leap into the vinyl world. In fact, you could make an excellent leap by starting with a Clearaudio Concept and their Concept moving coil for $2K.

Or, you could so something similar to what David did, get a Michell Gyro SE MkII for $2500, a clean, used SME 309 used for around $1500 or so, and a clean, used Shelter 501 MkII for $500.

Puma, those numbers and letters are Greek to me. I appreciate the input but I need it put into novice terms!:D:D

Gordon

[jdandy]

Gordon.......Here's what $4069.95 can buy you brand new. There are plenty of other suggestions. This is just one.

JA Michell Gyro SE Turntable w/ Rega RB300 tonearm - $2,895.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18107&c=ACCT106601&h=1f88c1d1834e7b20da22


Shelter 501 II Moving Coil Phono Cartridge - $1095.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11702&c=ACCT106601&h=f051798539c35508fbc9&resizeid=-2&resizeh=74&resizew=74


Spin Clean Record Washer - $79.95
http://www.spincleanrecordwasher.com/images/record.png

[jdandy]

Gordon.......Here's the turntable Stephen suggested.


Clearaudio Concept Turntable w/ Verify Tonearm - $1400.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=16739&c=ACCT106601&h=749a8a3cc9c60c475948

[jdandy]

Gordon.......And another fine turntable and tonearm combination from Pro-ject.


Pro-Ject RM-10 w/Pro-Ject 10cc EVO tonearm - $3499.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/Pro-JectRM10.jpg

[Puma Cat]

Sorry, Gordon.

Clearaudio makes a super "entry" level turntable called the Concept for $1400. You can get it with a factory installed moving coil cartridge, also called the Concept for an additional $600, for a total of $2,000.00. While this is Clearaudio's "entry" level table, it's performance is anything but entry-level, and surpasses, in my opinion, anything in the $1500-$2000 price class.

Here's a pic of mine, using a mono Grado Reference Sonata wood-bodied cartridge.

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/Concept-2.jpg

SME is an extremely highly-regarded manufacturer of tonearms, arguably the most famous manufacturer of tonearms in the world, with an enviable and entirely justified reputation for absolutely superb engineering and manufacturing quality. They actually make tonearms and turntables as a side business, as their main business is engineering for Formula 1 teams and aerospace. The SME 309 is their entry into the "V" (Roman numeral five)-class of arms, and is the best bang-for-the-buck tonearm they make, with performance very close to the much more expensive SME IV.VI and the reference-quality SME V tonearms. There are very few turntable or tonearm manufacturers that can even approach SME's engineering expertise, and none that I know of that can surpass it. Buying an SME arm is a one-time proposition, because they can completely service and rebuild the arm for a very nominal fee, so you can expect it to last a lifetime.

Here is a picture of my SME V which I bought used from a friend who bought it in 1987, used it for 200 hrs, and then put in a closet for 22 years. It was barely used because it did not work well on his Linn-Sondek turntable, but it would not look any different even if it had seen daily use for the last 24 years.

http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/SME_V-4.jpg

The Michell Gyro SE MkII is a suspended turntable made by JA Michell of Great Britain. They've been making turntables for over 35 years and are very well-respected. These tables were designed to be very compatible with SME arms, and even though John Michell made his own arm, the Technoarm, he always showed his tables at trade shows with an SME V arm.

Here's a pic of mine with my (used) SME V on it; this would be very, very similar to Dan's setup.
http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/GyroSE-5.jpg

Shelter is a Japanese manufacturer of moving coil cartridges. Their 501 MkII model is probably their most well-known model because it sells for about $1000 new, but competes very favorably with moving coil cartridges costing $2000 to $2,500. It is notable for being detailed, sweet, musical and slightly warm-sounding. You can often find them used on Audiogon in very good to excellent condition for $500.00. I bought mine used for $500 with 200 hours on it. For $500 used, you would have to spend likely more than $2500 to find a cartridge that would outperform it overall.

For a description of the differences between moving coil and moving magnet cartridges, review this article on Wikipedia:
Magnetic cartridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_cartridge)

Moving coils are generally known for being more transparent, more resolving and faster in their response than moving magnet cartridges, but they generally have a lower voltage output than a moving magnet, and therefore often require a phono stage that has sufficient gain to allow them to be used. Moving magnet cartridges have on average a 10X higher voltage output, but are generally regarded as not being as transparent, and resolving and fast in response to transients as moving coil designs; though that is not a hard and fast rule.

There is also another design called "moving iron" that Grado and Soundsmith use very effectively. This design has the advantages in that it has the high voltage output of moving magnet designs, but the detail and transparency of moving coil designs.

[Puma Cat]

JA Michell Gyro SE Turntable w/ Rega RB300 tonearm - $2,895.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18107&c=ACCT106601&h=1f88c1d1834e7b20da22

$2895?

Man, that is a smokin' deal. The Rega is an excellent arm and mates well with the Michell, also.

[Puma Cat]

Gordon.......Here's what $4069.95 can buy you brand new. There are plenty of other suggestions. This is just one.

JA Michell Gyro SE Turntable w/ Rega RB300 tonearm - $2,895.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18107&c=ACCT106601&h=1f88c1d1834e7b20da22


Shelter 501 II Moving Coil Phono Cartridge - $1095.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11702&c=ACCT106601&h=f051798539c35508fbc9&resizeid=-2&resizeh=74&resizew=74


Spin Clean Record Washer - $79.95
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18788&c=ACCT106601&h=58f0b7976cf48bb1154b

Superb recommendation, and for 5K, what I would do, Dan. That would leave almost a grand for a nice phono stage if required.

[jdandy]

Gordon.......Still staying within your $5K budget.


AVID Diva II w/Rega RB-301 tonearm - $2295.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/aviddivaII-1.jpg

[Vintage Pete]

Gordon.......And another fine turntable and tonearm combination from Pro-ject.


Pro-Ject RM-10 w/Pro-Ject 10cc EVO tonearm - $3499.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/Pro-JectRM10.jpg

I've seen this one at my local dealer. Nice Turntable. :yes:

Pete

[Puma Cat]

Gordon.......Still staying within your $5K budget.


AVID Diva II w/Rega RB-301 tonearm - $2295.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/aviddivaII-1.jpg

I'm sure it's a good table, but I just can't get my head around any table with a platter made of MDF, especially one costing $2300....:no:

[Masterlu]

Ivan, I saw the popcorn before you deleted it!

Gordon

Yep, my bad! :o

[BlueChiaro]

Before I went crazy and bought my SME, I was strongly considering the Rega P9...which would pretty much eat up your entire budget, pre-cartridge. Jeff (tonepub) is a fan, but I'm not trying to push your budget. The P7 at $2695 would leave some money in your pocket for albums...even after cartridge, but I'm far from intimately familiar with it...just tossing it out as an option.

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=5514&c=ACCT106601&h=57f2627d5ddb9a6a57dd&resizeid=-2&resizeh=74&resizew=74

I also say start with the Spin Clean ($80) and decide what you think of the whole vinyl thing before you spend real money on a cleaning machine. Good luck, Gordon, and enjoy the journey.

Robert

[Puma Cat]

Before I went crazy and bought my SME, I was strongly considering the Rega P9...which would pretty much eat up your entire budget, pre-cartridge. Jeff (tonepub) is a fan, but I'm not trying to push your budget. The P7 at $2695 would leave some money in your pocket for albums...even after cartridge, but I'm far from intimately familiar with it...just tossing it out as an option.

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=5514&c=ACCT106601&h=57f2627d5ddb9a6a57dd&resizeid=-2&resizeh=74&resizew=74

I also say start with the Spin Clean ($80) and decide what you think of the whole vinyl thing before you spend real money on a cleaning machine. Good luck, Gordon, and enjoy the journey.

Robert

Another excellent recommendation.

Something I might do instead, though, would be to get the Clearaudio Concept, a good $1000 wood-bodied cart, like the Grado Reference Master 1, Clearaudio Maestro Wood, or a Benz-Micro moving coil, like the Micro Ace, and put the rest of the money into an EAR 834 P phono stage. I tried my Shelter in the Concept, and thought the Grado was a better matchup. The Shelter is very slightly on the thin-sounding side on the Concept (Jeff's P9*, OTOH, is a whole other ballgame), and benefits from the warmth and weight a suspended table brings. A "rigid" plinth like the Concept really benefits from the warmth and weight a nice wood-bodied cartridge brings. Come to think of it, one of the Soundsmith ebony-bodied moving iron carts like the Boheme or Aida might be really, really sweet.

*-I've heard Jeff's P9 with a Shelter 501 MkII and it was very impressive indeed. Talk about 'yer no muss, no fuss high-end table.

[jwhite613]

Well, I will stick up for the VPI Classic. I have it and love it. Add an Ortofon black and you are well under the $5,000.00. It also won a few awards,

Hi Fi Plus - Turntable of the Year - 2009

Harry Pearson - Golden Ear Award 2009

Anthony Cordesman - Golden Ear Award 2010

Germany - Image Hi-Fi, Turntable of the Year

http://www.vpiindustries.com/images/New-Classic-for-Web.jpg

[Tonepub]

Another excellent recommendation.

Something I might do instead, though, would be to get the Clearaudio Concept, a good $1000 wood-bodied cart, like the Grado Reference Master 1, Clearaudio Maestro Wood, or a Benz-Micro moving coil, like the Micro Ace, and put the rest of the money into an EAR 834 P phono stage. I tried my Shelter in the Concept, and thought the Grado was a better matchup. The Shelter is very slightly on the thin-sounding side on a rigid plinth table (except for Jeff's P9*, which is a whole other ballgame), and benefits from the warmth and weight a suspended table brings. A "rigid" plinth like the Concept really benefits from the warmth and weight a nice wood-bodied cartridge brings. Come to think of it, one of the Soundsmith ebony-bodied moving iron carts like the Boheme or Aida might be really, really sweet.

*-I've heard Jeff's P9 with a Shelter 501 MkII and it was very impressive indeed. Talk about 'yer no muss, no fuss high-end table.

The Phono stage in your C1000 is quite a bit better than the EAR 834, so you already have a leg up here...

[Puma Cat]

The Phono stage in your C1000 is quite a bit better than the EAR 834, so you already have a leg up here...

My bad, I don't know the Mac line very well; didn't realize his C1000 had a phono stage, and an excellent one at that. I would put the extra money into music then, as Robert suggested. Gotta have content.

[1KW]

Gordon.......Here's what $4069.95 can buy you brand new. There are plenty of other suggestions. This is just one.

JA Michell Gyro SE Turntable w/ Rega RB300 tonearm - $2,895.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18107&c=ACCT106601&h=1f88c1d1834e7b20da22


Shelter 501 II Moving Coil Phono Cartridge - $1095.00
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=11702&c=ACCT106601&h=f051798539c35508fbc9&resizeid=-2&resizeh=74&resizew=74


Spin Clean Record Washer - $79.95
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=18788&c=ACCT106601&h=58f0b7976cf48bb1154b



Gordon having just gone through this very same decision I can tell you I made the right decision for me and I was well within your budget even with the cartridge all were purchased brand new ie nothing was used. If you research the Gyrodec SE MKV , SME 309 and Shelter you will not find one negative thing. I can vouch for all the suppurlative you will read about and when you are not listening it is a piece of art to look at. If you can get the SME tone arm not the Rega, it is worth the price.

[jdandy]

Gordon.......Push the budget out a bit more, $7274.99 gets you...


Sota Sapphire Series V - $2699.99
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/SotaSapphireSeriesV.jpg


SME 309 tonearm - $2195.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/SME309.jpg


Ortofon Cadenza Black - $2380.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/OrtofonCadenzaBlack.jpg

[Puma Cat]

Gordon.......Push the budget out a bit more, $7274.99 gets you...


Sota Sapphire Series V - $2699.99
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/SotaSapphireSeriesV.jpg



Personally, I'd still take the Michell over the SOTA...just my 2¢.

[Tonepub]

Have you heard the two tables side by side with identical arms and cartridges?

While not terribly fashion forward, SOTA makes a good product with a solid upgrade path. Their customer service is excellent and their repair/upgrade charges are very reasonable.

And, because of the upgrade path, there are quite a few good used SOTA's around very inexpensively. You can usually find one of these used for about $1000, as well as a 309 for about the same. Add your favorite cartridge for $1000 - $2000 and you have a very good record player.

[Gordon]

Thanks for all the suggestions! Now to do some reading and soul searching!!

Thanks guys, Gordon

[Formerly YB-2]

Gordon.......Still staying within your $5K budget.
AVID Diva II w/Rega RB-301 tonearm - $2295.00
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/aviddivaII-1.jpgIf I wasn't busy 'playing' with my dual-arm DDX-1000 this is likely the way I would go. Get the upgraded RB700 arm with VTA adjuster or step up to the SME309 and the Ortofon Cadenza Black or Blue and still under $5K. Many excellent choices suggested.