LP125M on the way!

[pstrisik]

Well, I've got a pair of store demo LP125Ms on the way! The price was to good to pass up. But having to sell my MF-2250A and likely the Pr11A (after confirming I will keep the 125's over the 11) to help with the cost. I've ordered a quad of KT-120's that I assume I will run with as that is what I have in the 11A. Thanks to all who offered advice and opinions in the 8A vs 8XS thread.

:D
.

[Joe Appierto]

Congratulations, Peter. Enjoy!

[turntable]

Awesome peter

some great listening sessions are coming

[ronenash]

The LP125M is an awesome amp. I am sure you will enjoy it very much.

Congrads.

[Sunnyboy1956]

Congrats Peter. This will sound awesome
Cheers

[CLEE]

Congrats! Please let us know how they performs in your system later.

[Ritmo]

Congrats Peter!

[Masterlu]

Enjoy them!

http://www.stereophile.com/images/1211cj.2.jpg

http://www.stereophile.com/images/1211cj.promo_.jpg

[pstrisik]

Thanks for all the encouragement fellow CJers! I will certainly post pics and impressions. Best estimate for arrival is Saturday. They are coming from the east coast up here to Alaska.

Puzzles me why no one bought them before me. It was an Audiogon listing from a CJ dealer for a demo pair under warranty for less than half MSRP. The listing went 25 days before I bought them.

[Marco1]

:thumbsup::thumbsup: Congrats...looking forward to your impressions.

Enjoy.

Regards, Mark

[pstrisik]

I received the amps today. They are intact and in good cosmetic condition. I am not happy about the tubes though. They sent it with seven 6550C and one 6550EH! :icon_thumbsdown:

Included were two 6922EH and only one M8080 and one empty box! :grumpy: I emailed and the sales person will call CJ on Tuesday and see about replacing them. Meanwhile, I'm looking at these amps that I can't listen to. :no:

All will work out in the end, but aggravating and disappointing.

I'm thinking about accelerating the process and ordering a pair of the M8080 myself for quick delivery. It would be good to have spares anyway. Recommendations? The one tube it came with seems to be a Mullard CV4058, though it doesn't say Mullard, or any brand, on it. This is a seller's photo:
Watford Valves :: Product - 6C4WA/CV4058/EC90- MULLARD BOX ANODE (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=201)

This is a photo of mine:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3951/mqa5.jpg

Anyone have recommendations for favorite tube of this type before I order the Mullard? From what I can gather the Mullard is generally liked and CJ chose it, so it may be the way to go.

They each take a 6922 also. I rolled with my 17LS and settled on Gold Lion 6922, so I will likely go with those.

Power tubes are 6550C - will likely use KT120 as that is what I've liked in the 11A.

Thanks...........

[ronenash]

About the only high quality 6c4 tube available is the Mullard which you will find under different names, m8080 and cv4058. They are both the same tube. Some GE 6135 can also be ok but not at the same level of the Mullard.

[Joe Appierto]

Bummer about the incomplete and mismatched tube sets but good news that the amps look to be in good shape. The fact that c-j supplies these with Mullards would indicate they feel they're the most plentiful and best sounding.

Brendan at Tube World lists 6C4=6C4WA=EC90=CV4058=M8080=6100 as equivalent and the Mullard, RCA, Tungsol, Raytheon, Sylvania, GE as the best sounding of these types. He's got pairs of Mullard CV4058, GE 6C4WA, National Union 6C4, RCA 6C4, and Sylvania 6C4 and 6C4WA. Might want to give that a thought if you're interested in ordering from someone closer to home.

[pstrisik]

Thanks to you both. I ordered a pair of the Mullards from Brendan at Tube World for $80. He's shipping them out today by Priority Mail, so I will hopefully have them by Tues or Wed.

[Coppy]

I received the amps today. They are intact and in good cosmetic condition. I am not happy about the tubes though. They sent it with seven 6550C and one 6550EH! :icon_thumbsdown:

Included were two 6922EH and only one M8080 and one empty box! :grumpy: I emailed and the sales person will call CJ on Tuesday and see about replacing them. Meanwhile, I'm looking at these amps that I can't listen to. :no:

All will work out in the end, but aggravating and disappointing.

I'm thinking about accelerating the process and ordering a pair of the M8080 myself for quick delivery. It would be good to have spares anyway. Recommendations? The one tube it came with seems to be a Mullard CV4058, though it doesn't say Mullard, or any brand, on it. This is a seller's photo:
Watford Valves :: Product - 6C4WA/CV4058/EC90- MULLARD BOX ANODE (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=201)

This is a photo of mine:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3951/mqa5.jpg

Anyone have recommendations for favorite tube of this type before I order the Mullard? From what I can gather the Mullard is generally liked and CJ chose it, so it may be the way to go.

They each take a 6922 also. I rolled with my 17LS and settled on Gold Lion 6922, so I will likely go with those.

Power tubes are 6550C - will likely use KT120 as that is what I've liked in the 11A.

Thanks...........

This is very unusual. Were these amps new from c-j in sealed boxes and from a dealer?

[pstrisik]

No. Sorry, this carried over from another thread. These are floor demos from a CJ dealer. All else was good - well packed in original boxes. Manual and current model flyers in the ziplock baggie. Plastic biasing screwdriver. Not all the tube dampers, but I'm not sure they come with new units anyway. I've got enough to cover. Whomever they had pack it up overlooked it somehow. Maybe it rolled off the area they were working from after they removed the tubes to pack the amps - who knows? They were all there in the photos though, so something happened to it during the take down/packing up. He said he would replace it.

[pstrisik]

A brief update. :sigh:

I received a new pair of CV4058's from Tube World and set up the amps. Turned them on and set initial bias. One bias light wouldn't come on! Mini panic set in about receiving a defective amp. There was some crackle on that channel and tapping near that light caused more crackle. So I shut things down.

Realizing that it is often tubes at fault, I swapped that one tube with it's mate from the other amp. These are KT120's. Sure enough, the bias light didn't come on now in the other amp. So I figured a bad tube. It didn't occur to me right away as I moved that tube from my 11A where things were working just fine. No full set of tubes to switch to, so I will need to order a replacement. :sigh: They are just a few weeks old though, so I'll have it replaced on warranty.

But more delay in being able to listen! :tears:

I am relieved however, that it doesn't seem to be a problem with the amps. I'm learning symptoms though all this (evidently tube problems in my LS17 also) as I am new to tubes. The 11A was my first tube piece, which I bought 10 months ago.

[pstrisik]

More bad news on the 125's. After I got all the tubes in order, I set things up and found one amp with markedly lower output than the other (like >10db difference). Did what troubleshooting I could do: swapped all tubes between the two amps, changed plate fuse, changed power cords and where they were plugged in, swapped inputs, swapped speaker outputs. Nothing helped. Called CJ and talked to Jeff. The bad unit should be to him today.

Fortunately it is under warranty. I'm having to pay shipping both ways from and to Alaska though. Opinions on whether the dealer should share the cost for shipping since this was the case out of the box? Anyone have any dealings with Fidelis AV in NH? I'm losing confidence and trust in them rapidly.

Thanks......

[Marco1]

More bad news on the 125's. After I got all the tubes in order, I set things up and found one amp with markedly lower output than the other (like >10db difference). Did what troubleshooting I could do: swapped all tubes between the two amps, changed plate fuse, changed power cords and where they were plugged in, swapped inputs, swapped speaker outputs. Nothing helped. Called CJ and talked to Jeff. The bad unit should be to him today.

Fortunately it is under warranty. I'm having to pay shipping both ways from and to Alaska though. Opinions on whether the dealer should share the cost for shipping since this was the case out of the box? Anyone have any dealings with Fidelis AV in NH? I'm losing confidence and trust in them rapidly.

Thanks......

Shameful on the dealers part. Of course this is their responsibility. They sold you something that does not work :icon_thumbsdown:.

I would also file a dispute through A'gon and the credit card or paypal account you HOPEFULLY used to pay them.

Another option is that they take the amps back and issue a full refund. Hate to say it but this just seems like bad karma to me :sigh:.

Regards, Mark

[pstrisik]

Shameful on the dealers part. Of course this is their responsibility. They sold you something that does not work :icon_thumbsdown:.

I would also file a dispute through A'gon and the credit card or paypal account you HOPEFULLY used to pay them.

Another option is that they take the amps back and issue a full refund. Hate to say it but this just seems like bad karma to me :sigh:.

Regards, Mark

So far, they are not acknowledging that there was anything wrong when they shipped. You know what that implies.

credit card, um....., paypal, well........

[Marco1]

Sorry you're having so many problems...hope you get it all worked out.

Regards, Mark

[pstrisik]

Ok, back a month later with initial impressions! http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/248/5/1/omg_soo_crazy_by_aksile11-d48xvcu.gif

I finally got all the problems worked out. Came missing a tube. Ordered replacement. Then a KT120 turned out to be bad on initial setup. Ordered a replacement. Then the output on one turned out to be >10db low. Set to CJ for warranty repair. Dealer finally agreed to pick up the shipping tab. Received it back last Wednesday. It was one pin hole on one socket that wasn't making contact. Everything finally seems to be working.

I started out with the stock Mullard CV4068, Genelex Gold Lion 6922, and KT-120 power tubes. I am assuming the units are broken in having been store demos. Initial impression was a wow on stronger bass, more extended highs, and improved soundstage/imaging compared with my Pr11A running KT-120s. However, after some listening, I found my ears were complaining. This wasn't a good sign.

Last night, I decided to try the stock SV6550C power tubes (Winged C). Ahh, it relaxed. Bass seems as good as does imaging. Highs may be less extended. Overall much easier to listen to. I'll give them this week, maybe try 120's again after getting used to the 6550's (to make sure).

If I decide to stay with 6550, the next question will be whether to stay with Winged C (I have 10 that have been well used) or go with Tung-Sol 6550 reissue (I have four and would need to order another quad). Or some other 6550, but these seem to be the leaders (except for orig TS).

Notable is the difference is tube choice between the 11A and the 125M. The 11A seemed to prefer the KT-120, while the 120's seem too strong for the 125M. The 11A had better bass, dynamics, and highs with the 120's compared to the 6550's. I also notice that the gain is significantly higher on the 125M's than the 11A. I'm running the gain on the pre at about 8:00 vs. 10:00 or 11:00 with the 11A.

My next step in reigning in edge is some F10 wool felt that I will place around the tweet and midrange of my AR2ax'. Supposedly helps with edge/baffle diffraction: Diffraction Doesn't Have to be a Problem (http://www.speakerdesign.net/audioXpress/diffraction/diffraction.html).

[rlw3]

Peter what benefits did you get when you put non stock input and driver tubes into the mix? Do you have the stock cj tubes to compare them to?

[pstrisik]

Peter what benefits did you get when you put non stock input and driver tubes into the mix? Do you have the stock cj tubes to compare them to?

I will have to try the stock 6922 after being surprised that the old 6550's sound better than the KT-120's. The gold lions were so much better than the stock EH's in the 17LS that I went that way without thinking about it too much.

[rlw3]

"Do not like regular kt 120s either. When i bought my pr 12 it came with 6550s which i thought to be on the rich and slow side. Decided to go for some kt 120s given all positive talk they were getting. Kevin Deal at upscale talked me into getting chryoed kt 120s which in the pr 12 i love. Went back and bought some non chryoed 120s to do a little comparison and did not like them. Later had them chryoed after first trying 2 chryo and 2 non chryo in each mono block(didn't work well). Tube rolling synergy is very hit and miss like putting the last piece of a puzzle in place.

[pstrisik]

"Do not like regular kt 120s either. When i bought my pr 12 it came with 6550s which i thought to be on the rich and slow side. Decided to go for some kt 120s given all positive talk they were getting. Kevin Deal at upscale talked me into getting chryoed kt 120s which in the pr 12 i love. Went back and bought some non chryoed 120s to do a little comparison and did not like them. Later had them chryoed after first trying 2 chryo and 2 non chryo in each mono block(didn't work well). Tube rolling synergy is very hit and miss like putting the last piece of a puzzle in place.

I agree about tube synergy. So dependent on everything else in the system. Like components themselves.

I'm surprised that you didn't like the 120s in the 12s. They were clearly better for me in the 11A. Maybe the added power made a difference. Or the added tubes.

I haven't posted it here since it isn't CJ, but I'm about to go tube rolling crazy in my preamp. It's a Cary SLP-05 with eight 6SN7s and a 5AR4 rectifier. Chatter indicates combining different makes of tube pairs in the six relevant sockets is the way to go (one pair is for the headphone section). Now we're talking permutations and combinations! I will likely end up with four of one make in the + and - phase gain sockets and two of another in the balanced (contrast with single ended) sockets. And another for the rectifier! :crazy:

I've stayed away from cryo. I've read too much mixed review on the results. I'll try them if some get handy, but feels like too much money risk for the experiment.

[Myles B. Astor]

I agree about tube synergy. So dependent on everything else in the system. Like components themselves.

I'm surprised that you didn't like the 120s in the 12s. They were clearly better for me in the 11A. Maybe the added power made a difference. Or the added tubes.

I haven't posted it here since it isn't CJ, but I'm about to go tube rolling crazy in my preamp. It's a Cary SLP-05 with eight 6SN7s and a 5AR4 rectifier. Chatter indicates combining different makes of tube pairs in the six relevant sockets is the way to go (one pair is for the headphone section). Now we're talking permutations and combinations! I will likely end up with four of one make in the + and - phase gain sockets and two of another in the balanced (contrast with single ended) sockets. And another for the rectifier! :crazy:

I've stayed away from cryo. I've read too much mixed review on the results. I'll try them if some get handy, but feels like too much money risk for the experiment.

This is supposed to be the hot 5AR4 replacement.

5R4GYS tube (http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/5R4GYS.htm)

[pstrisik]

This is supposed to be the hot 5AR4 replacement.

5R4GYS tube (http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/5R4GYS.htm)

Thanks for that!

On first pass, it looks like close to the Mullard for less money. Seems he is the only one carrying it, at least that I can find. I think the Mullard is a better bet. I'm finding them for $135 and only need one.

[Puma Cat]

The "edge" you may be hearing may well be Teflon capacitors not fully burned-in as well...just because it's a dealer demo does not necessarily mean it's fully burned-in. Depends to what extent the amp was used by the dealer. My local dealer is a C-J dealer, but they hardly ever fire up the gear as they push other brands more now than C-J. If it was was sitting a while since it was last used (more than two weeks or so), it could also require up to two weeks of re-burn in if it was indeed fully burned in in the first place. You may find that you can go back to the KT-120s after a period of burn-in. I personally use KT-120s in my LP70S and prefer them to the C-J provided 6550s or KT88s, which the LP70 doesn't like, anyway.

[pstrisik]

The "edge" you may be hearing may well be Teflon capacitors not fully burned-in as well...just because it's a dealer demo does not necessarily mean it's fully burned-in. Depends to what extent the amp was used by the dealer. My local dealer is a C-J dealer, but they hardly ever fire up the gear as they push other brands more now than C-J. If it was was sitting a while since it was last used (more than two weeks or so), it could also require up to two weeks of re-burn in if it was indeed fully burned in in the first place. You may find that you can go back to the KT-120s after a period of burn-in. I personally use KT-120s in my LP70S and prefer them to the C-J provided 6550s or KT88s, which the LP70 doesn't like, anyway.

Thanks for your thoughts. I will try the 120s again after a while. But these are not LP125MSE's, so I don't think they have Teflon caps (I could be wrong). And the dealer had them on display for 2 - 3 years. True still, maybe not much play. Here's what I got from CJ when I inquired about them:

1) These amplifiers were sent to the dealer in February of 2010.
2) Yes, KT120 can be used in the LP125M
3) These amps can be upgraded to LP125SE (Teflon capacitors, Vishay resistors) for a cost of $2000 per chassis plus shipping.
4) We currently supply Electro Harmonix 6922, Mullard M8080 and Tungsol KT120s for this amplifier

[Myles B. Astor]

The "edge" you may be hearing may well be Teflon capacitors not fully burned-in as well...just because it's a dealer demo does not necessarily mean it's fully burned-in. Depends to what extent the amp was used by the dealer. My local dealer is a C-J dealer, but they hardly ever fire up the gear as they push other brands more now than C-J. If it was was sitting a while since it was last used (more than two weeks or so), it could also require up to two weeks of re-burn in if it was indeed fully burned in in the first place. You may find that you can go back to the KT-120s after a period of burn-in. I personally use KT-120s in my LP70S and prefer them to the C-J provided 6550s or KT88s, which the LP70 doesn't like, anyway.

I thought the same thing but for two things. One the amps came from the dealer and two, I've never heard the Teflons sound bright when new. Generally, it's closed in, dark and undynamic. (The Teflon Vcaps can actually sound a little bass shy.)

Instead, I was thinking that these amps were exposing an issue somewhere else in the system.

[pstrisik]

I thought the same thing but for two things. One the amps came from the dealer and two, I've never heard the Teflons sound bright when new. Generally, it's closed in, dark and undynamic. (The Teflon Vcaps can actually sound a little bass shy.)

Instead, I was thinking that these amps were exposing an issue somewhere else in the system.

I should point out that my hearing is very sensitive at that upper mid frequency range. I have some hearing loss and mild hyperacusis. I wear hearing aids (I have worked with my h/a tech with a music program eliminating as much digital processing as possible). So, what I hear as some edge might not be heard as such by those without such issues.

I'll also note that my system is sounding the best it ever has with these amps and the Cary pre. Likely finding a good combo of tubes (mainly for the preamp) along with some wool felt treatment to minimize edge diffraction for my speakers (experiment) and a small bit of additional room treatment will be it for a while. No doubt the itch will come again, but it feels like I'm on the verge of satisfaction!

[ronenash]

The non-SE version of the LP125m indeed does not have Teflon caps. I have never heard the amps referred to as bright. If you are looking for a warmer sound you can try the Gold Lion KT88. They are a bit warmer sounding the =C= 6550c and the KT120.

The non-SE LP125m should only take about 200-300 hours to fully break in.

[pstrisik]

The non-SE version of the LP125m indeed does not have Teflon caps. I have never heard the amps referred to as bright. If you are looking for a warmer sound you can try the Gold Lion KT88. They are a bit warmer sounding the =C= 6550c and the KT120.

The non-SE LP125m should only take about 200-300 hours to fully break in.

Thanks for the suggestion. What about KT-90's? I already have four from the 11A. I'm assuming their compatible since the 11A and 125M both use 6550's.

I'm confident the last bit of tweaking will get me into the zone. Kind of a nice feeling!

[ronenash]

I have never heard the kt90 but have heard they are rather hard sounding. I think today you can only get the EH ones. The EI are long gone.

[pstrisik]

Yeah, the ones I have are EI.

I've got NOS tubes coming for my Cary pre. We'll see how things are with that unit optimized. I have a feeling that I'm good to go with the stock tubes in the 125s. If I stay with the 6550s, I may try the TS6550 reissues at some point. I already have four that I tried in the 11A.

[ronenash]

The stock tubes in the cj are definitely good and you can enjoy them for years to come.