Premier 8A vs Premier 8XS

[pstrisik]

I have the Premier 11A. I'm wondering about the difference in sound characteristics going to a triode design like the XS. The 8XS would be more power and go from stereo amp to monos, but considering all to be equal, say comparing 8A to 8XS, what could be expected for differences.

Comments appreciated.

.....

[ronenash]

Triode would be softer at the frequency extremes but will also have more palpable and holographic midrange. I think I read Lew Johnson quoted that most people who converted their amps to Triode ended up converting them back to UL.
I have heard both with the Premier 12 and much preferred the UL.

[pstrisik]

Triode would be softer at the frequency extremes but will also have more palpable and holographic midrange. I think I read Lew Johnson quoted that most people who converted their amps to Triode ended up converting them back to UL.
I have heard both with the Premier 12 and much preferred the UL.

Thanks for the reply. Can I read this as your preference for the extremes over the midrange?

If people converted and converted back, I hope it isn't a very expensive mod!

[Marco1]

I own the Premier 12xs and much prefer them to the ultra linear model with my Merlins which have a relatively flat impedance curve. I think a lot of your preferences will be influenced by the speakers you use. They worked very well with Quads which I also owned for a number of years. I've also driven some 4 ohm speakers with good success. However, you may have problems with difficult speaker loads. The EL34's give the amp a much sweeter sound imo (it's absolutely great with vocals), but on the flip side give up some firmness in the bass and maybe just a little bit of extension in the highs.

Regards, Mark

[pstrisik]

Thanks Mark,

It may be that the XS would be a good way to go for me. I have high freq sensitivities and I run with subs, so the added midrange quality and some roll off at either end could work.

I am running AR2ax speakers. These are three way with 10" woofers from 1973. Fully restored with new caps, pots and surrounds. They are sealed ("acoustic suspension"). I think they are nominal 8ohms, but not sure. And I have no idea about sensitivity. They may be on low sensitivity side given that they are sealed. My 75wpc 11A seems to do fine powering them.

[ronenash]

Thanks for the reply. Can I read this as your preference for the extremes over the midrange?

If people converted and converted back, I hope it isn't a very expensive mod!

Not really. The midrange has always been CJ strongest area and CJ has midrange to die for IMHO.

The triode configuration loses a lot in the extremes, lose half the power and drivability of the amp and gain little in the midrange. Vocals for instance will be slightly more palpable. Just not worth the price IMO.

With the CJ amps you need to decide as there is no easy way to switch back and forth. With my Beard amp I installed a switch you move from UL to triode with a flic of a switch. I still use it in UL most of the time.

[pstrisik]

Thanks ronenash, I now get where you are coming from. The gaining little in the midrange certainly would make it a lose & only gain slightly deal. So it may be that finding a pair of twelves would serve me better as a step up from the 11A. CJ (by email, after Ed left, and with some authority. My guess is that it is one the top guys replying given the authority and manner of the writing.) suggested that the best move for me at this point would be upgrading my Premier 17LS to a 17LS2.

[Myles B. Astor]

Not really. The midrange has always been CJ strongest area and CJ has midrange to die for IMHO.

The triode configuration loses a lot in the extremes, lose half the power and drivability of the amp and gain little in the midrange. Vocals for instance will be slightly more palpable. Just not worth the price IMO.

With the CJ amps you need to decide as there is no easy way to switch back and forth. With my Beard amp I installed a switch you move from UL to triode with a flic of a switch. I still use it in UL most of the time.

I totally agree! The music loses a lot including the feeling of dynamics.

[Marco1]

Not really. The midrange has always been CJ strongest area and CJ has midrange to die for IMHO.

The triode configuration loses a lot in the extremes, lose half the power and drivability of the amp and gain little in the midrange. Vocals for instance will be slightly more palpable. Just not worth the price IMO.

With the CJ amps you need to decide as there is no easy way to switch back and forth. With my Beard amp I installed a switch you move from UL to triode with a flic of a switch. I still use it in UL most of the time.

I totally agree! The music loses a lot including the feeling of dynamics.

Well I'll have to respectively agree to disagree on this one. And again, with the caveat that using speakers with a relatively flat impedance curve and when listening to vocals and acoustic rock (my musical preferences), I find triode a win/win :yes:.

Regards, Mark

[Myles B. Astor]

Funny thing is that I've found that true for many amps that allow the owner to switch between ultralinear and triode such as VTL.

[pstrisik]

So, I'm not sure what to be on the lookout for next to step up from the 11A (no hurry). I could go with a pair of 12's for a boost in power and advantage of monos (8's would be overkill). Or LP140M which seems like a later version of the 12's with advance of teflon caps or LP70S which would be the same relationship to the 11A.

I asked CJ, as stated above, and it was suggested that upgrading my 17LS to 17LS2 would be the most bang for the buck particularly with my sensitivities to the higher frequencies (he said more extended, but sweeter). I'm open to that, or just looking for one available to buy or even a 16LS2. But that still leaves the amp question out there.

Just rambling, but thoughts always welcome!

[Coppy]

So, I'm not sure what to be on the lookout for next to step up from the 11A (no hurry). I could go with a pair of 12's for a boost in power and advantage of monos (8's would be overkill). Or LP140M which seems like a later version of the 12's with advance of teflon caps or LP70S which would be the same relationship to the 11A.

I asked CJ, as stated above, and it was suggested that upgrading my 17LS to 17LS2 would be the most bang for the buck particularly with my sensitivities to the higher frequencies (he said more extended, but sweeter). I'm open to that, or just looking for one available to buy or even a 16LS2. But that still leaves the amp question out there.

Just rambling, but thoughts always welcome!

You'll be happier with any of their monoblock options. The LP range has their best stuff... go as far up the range as you can afford.

[Marco1]

I don't wish to be cynical but asking any manufacturer what the better option maybe between (A) sending a component back to them to be upgraded allowing them to make additional money; or (B) buying a component used that they have already manufactured and sold, whereby they make no additional money, I feel typically the answer will be (A). I know I recently had a similar exchange with CJ regarding upgrading my Premier 16S2.

To your specific quandary "but that still leaves the amp question out there", I agree with Coppy. "You'll be happier with any of their monoblock options..... go as far up the range as you can afford".

Regards, Mark

[pstrisik]

I don't wish to be cynical but asking any manufacturer what the better option maybe between (A) sending a component back to them to be upgraded allowing them to make additional money; or (B) buying a component used that they have already manufactured and sold, whereby they make no additional money, I feel typically the answer will be (A). I know I recently had a similar exchange with CJ regarding upgrading my Premier 16S2.

To your specific quandary "but that still leaves the amp question out there", I agree with Coppy. "You'll be happier with any of their monoblock options..... go as far up the range as you can afford".

Regards, Mark

I had thought about the conflict of interest there. But it makes sense. Given that I have a 17LS and 11A, would I get more improvement going to a 17LS2 or to LP140Ms? In the end, I will probably change out both (or upgrade the 17LS to series 2).

As far as going as far up the line as I can afford... that assumes that the "better" amps have sound characteristics that work for me. For example, folks talk about later models losing some of the midrange magic when compared to earlier models. I've been a bit nervous about teflon for that reason, but I probably don't need to be.

So far, I think the best amp option is to find as good a deal on a used LP70S as I can. If I don't like it as much as the 11A, I can resell it. If I like it more, I can keep it as long as I like and eventually move up to the LP140M's with more confidence.

Besides, it is more rewarding to take steps and experience repeated improvements than to jump up to my top level right away and only get that experience once.

[ronenash]

Funny thing is that I've found that true for many amps that allow the owner to switch between ultralinear and triode such as VTL.

My experience exactly.

[ronenash]

I had thought about the conflict of interest there. But it makes sense. Given that I have a 17LS and 11A, would I get more improvement going to a 17LS2 or to LP140Ms? In the end, I will probably change out both (or upgrade the 17LS to series 2).

As far as going as far up the line as I can afford... that assumes that the "better" amps have sound characteristics that work for me. For example, folks talk about later models losing some of the midrange magic when compared to earlier models. I've been a bit nervous about teflon for that reason, but I probably don't need to be.

So far, I think the best amp option is to find as good a deal on a used LP70S as I can. If I don't like it as much as the 11A, I can resell it. If I like it more, I can keep it as long as I like and eventually move up to the LP140M's with more confidence.

Besides, it is more rewarding to take steps and experience repeated improvements than to jump up to my top level right away and only get that experience once.

My experience is that the monoblocks in general are a big step up from the stereo cj power amps. For the price of the LP70s you can get the LP125m monoblocks which IMO are a big step up in most areas. You can always upgrade the LP125m to SE later when you have the funds. With the LP125m you get less fancy casework but the performance will be considerably better for about the same price.

You can also get the Premier 8xs and convert them back to UL. That should not cost much. The Premier 8 is a great amp but retubing is very costly as each monoblock has 8 costly power tubes and 6 input/driver tubes.

[pstrisik]

My experience is that the monoblocks in general are a big step up from the stereo cj power amps. For the price of the LP70s you can get the LP125m monoblocks which IMO are a big step up in most areas. You can always upgrade the LP125m to SE later when you have the funds. With the LP125m you get less fancy casework but the performance will be considerably better for about the same price.

You can also get the Premier 8xs and convert them back to UL. That should not cost much. The Premier 8 is a great amp but retubing is very costly as each monoblock has 8 costly power tubes and 6 input/driver tubes.

I think the 8's are more than I need in power. Maybe if they were the XS, but the comments here are dissuading me from that design.

The LP125M's are an interesting option. I'll look into that more. I actually like the case design better than the other LP models. It's more like my 11A with the tubes presented in full glory. I've not liked the designes that hide them.

[CLEE]

If you don't need the power, I would recommend the 8XS. I used the 8A before switching to the 8XS. The latter served as my primary amp for almost 10 years until 3 years ago. Except for power and a possibly slightly smaller soundstage (relative to the 8A), the EL34 triode based 8XS was more musical, having a magically liquid and palpable midrange with delicate highs. HP of TAS used the 8XS as one of his reference amps in the late 90's.

--Charles

[pstrisik]

Hi Charles... it looks like a case of needing to hear them for myself <sigh>. Always easier said than done when you live in Alaska!

There are currently a pair of 8XS for sale on AG, but shipping would be huge for a trial, particularly at the price being asked. Plus the input circuit has been modified by a third party - Bob Backert of RHB Sound Dezign, which is not an attractive feature to me - too much of an unknown factor.

[pstrisik]

How's $4300 plus shipping for a pair of 125M's? That's less than half retail, so I'm assuming the price is pretty good.

And, since it uses 6550's, can I assume that it will take KT120's?

[ronenash]

That's indeed a good price and yes the LP125 works great with the kt120 although the tube cage will not fit because of their height (the amp looks better without it anyway).

When modified to SE version the pcb is lowered to fit the kt120 with the tube cage installed. When you have $3000 for the upgrade you will get a truly world class amp and one of the best I ever had the pleasure to listen to.

[Hatzudokiseizo]

Except for power and a possibly slightly smaller soundstage (relative to the 8A), the EL34 triode based 8XS was more musical, having a magically liquid and palpable midrange with delicate highs.

--Charles[/QUOTE]



I own the Premier 8A and is bi-amping with the Premier 12 in my system.The sound stage is simply much bigger and more dynamic which only half power then what the speakers are then free to Breathe as a Mellow Tone as the 8XS. The 8XS is still the best as a 300b tube amp ever! I still have the Premier One b with EL34 tubes and are not comparable with the teriffic 8Xs.The EL34 tubes are most middle-weighted up to the heights just the best! Voices come to the foreground the best female voices, dynamic instruments ... All in all, so who 8XS, 11Xs, 12Xs seek out one who has his own Xs enjoy a quiet river in his musical ear to.... Best Soundings:music::music:

[Ian Millar]

Changing the 8A to XS is easy (as far as working on the amp goes). Apart from the output valves, the only part needed is a 12V zener diode for PCB top-side left which replaces a 27V zener in a string of 3. This changes the output bias from approx -70V to approx -56V. You must remove the screen wires from each buss and strap the screen buss to the plate buss. You must also trim the pot at PCB top right for 1.0V LED reference c.f. 1.2V for the UL version. C-J has detailed instructions available.

According to a person I know who has worked on the UL version (and my XS) the UL rings at 10kHz. The XS does not.

I use factory 8XSs in an active tri-amped system for midrange only. It sounds good, but is in my opinion a very poorly executed amplifier. This is my first post, so I cannot link to my own blog detailing a recent overhaul. A google search for "ridiculous valve amplifier overhaul" should find it.