Dcs Puccini straight to amp?

[Dafos]

I've been using my Puccini thru an ARC ref Anniversary to my ref 250 assuming that it sounds better that way. Just today, out of curiosity, and since I had a long length of balanced cables lying around (transparent super, non MM)I went straight to the amp. Holy smokes, unless this is an initial jolt of excitement, this seems to be the way to use DCS gear as they in fact recommend. All the old stereotypes of a direct connection, sterility, dryness, lack of bloom or musicality I simply do not hear. In fact , it seems I can listen louder without the sound getting nasty. Based on this brief impression, if I had an all digital system, a line stage, regardless of price or pedigree, to a certain degree compromises performance. Btw, my normal cable connection bet Puccini and line stage to power amp are Kubala Emotions.

[bzr]

Dafos, try listening "louder" for an extended time. Unless the dCS has an exemplary preamp stage it will not bear well.

[Cincy2]

I've been using my Puccini thru an ARC ref Anniversary to my ref 250 assuming that it sounds better that way. Just today, out of curiosity, and since I had a long length of balanced cables lying around (transparent super, non MM)I went straight to the amp. Holy smokes, unless this is an initial jolt of excitement, this seems to be the way to use DCS gear as they in fact recommend. All the old stereotypes of a direct connection, sterility, dryness, lack of bloom or musicality I simply do not hear. In fact , it seems I can listen louder without the sound getting nasty. Based on this brief impression, if I had an all digital system, a line stage, regardless of price or pedigree, to a certain degree compromises performance. Btw, my normal cable connection bet Puccini and line stage to power amp are Kubala Emotions.

I had the same revelation several months ago with my Puccini DAC. I sold my preamp and upgraded the Puccini DAC to a Vivaldi DAC. Even better. I have a small music room and listen at moderate levels. No need to do anything else.

Cincy

[Car commander]

When I had a Puccini I tried it direct and preferred my preamp in the mix.

[Dafos]

I had the same revelation several months ago with my Puccini DAC. I sold my preamp and upgraded the Puccini DAC to a Vivaldi DAC. Even better. I have a small music room and listen at moderate levels. No need to do anything else.

Cincy

Considering the HUGE price gap between the Puccini and the Vivaldi, how much better is the latter? So I assume your still using your Puccini as a transport and the Vivaldi as the DAC?

[Cincy2]

Considering the HUGE price gap between the Puccini and the Vivaldi, how much better is the latter? So I assume your still using your Puccini as a transport and the Vivaldi as the DAC?

I didn't quite tell the whole story. I traded the pre amp and my Puccini transport and some coin of the realm for the Vivaldi DAC.

How much better is of course subjective. To me the increase in dynamics, clarity, signal to noise and imaging were worth 10 times the money I paid. Might not be the same for anyone else.

Cincy

[Car commander]

Be interesting to drop a K-01 in your system and compare. I am sure the Vivaldi is good the question is, is it that good?

[Elberoth]

I also preferred my Puccini direct vs my Ref-3 preamp. Preamp cant improve the sound quality, unless you find some of the distortion it introduces (phase and harmonic) to your liking. I have tried countless preamps vs going direct, and always prefered the direct connection.

[Still-One]

I also preferred my Puccini direct vs my Ref-3 preamp. Preamp cant improve the sound quality, unless you find some of the distortion it introduces (phase and harmonic) to your liking. I have tried countless preamps vs going direct, and always prefered the direct connection.
Adam
In general I agreed with you, 'till I found the right pre-amp.

[JSCC]

Be interesting to drop a K-01 in your system and compare. I am sure the Vivaldi is good the question is, is it that good?

K1 is slightly better.

[jdebonth]

I had tried several preamps and also preferred my DAC direct. I recently added the DartZ 18NS and this is the first pre I prefer over going direct.

It is a give and take situation, the tradeoff is around 5% loss in resolution and purity for a gain of around 15% in drive, punch and bass presence.

I think the preference is highly dependent on the type of music one listens to. I think if I was into chamber jazz and vocal music I would prefer DAC direct for the added intimacy (for me not the case).

[Elberoth]

It all very much depends on:

- the quality of the analog output stage in the D/A converter (its current drive capability)
- the level of digital attenuation one is going to use (even dCS sugests using preamp when attenuation levels are greater than -20dB)
- quality of digital attenuator

With dCS gear, which has a very robust output stage (output impedance close to 1 Ohm) and state of the art digital attenuation algorithms, when usable attenuation window is in 0 to -20dB range, I would advise to try the direct connection first.

If you are not using your preamp as 'tone control' to add smoothness or body your system is missing (in other words: if you are using preamp colorations to mask system problems) you will most likely find it superior to ANY preamp.

Preamps I have tried in my system ranged from ARC Ref-3 and Spectral SS-30mk2 (solid state) to $100k Kondo M-1000mk2. I still much preferred the direct to amp connection.

And if you consider the fact, that for the extra cash needed to buy a good preamp, additional IC and power cord (another $20k easily), you can get the Vivaldi insted of Paganini for example with the associated performance boost - going direct is a no brainer.

[Car commander]

K1 is slightly better.

I just read the Vivaldi review in the Absolute Sound. It's a 108K plus maybe 20K to 30K worth of cables. And a pro needs to set it up. It would have to be pretty good.

I am not sold on the computer-DAC digital source setup. In my system CD's and especially SACD's sounded better than Hi Res FLAC files off my Control 15 or WAV files off my MAC book pro. I have also read this in serveral places. I did the comparison using my K-03 and also a Mietner MA-1 Dac against my K-03. My K-01 is better than both those.

Interesting stuff.

[jdebonth]

It all very much depends on:

- the quality of the analog output stage in the D/A converter (its current drive capability)
- the level of digital attenuation one is going to use (even dCS sugests using preamp when attenuation levels are greater than -20dB)
- quality of digital attenuator

With dCS gear, which has a very robust output stage (output impedance close to 1 Ohm) and state of the art digital attenuation algorithms, when usable attenuation window is in 0 to -20dB range, I would advise to try the direct connection first.

If you are not using your preamp as 'tone control' to add smoothness or body your system is missing (in other words: if you are using preamp colorations to mask system problems) you will most likely find it superior to ANY preamp.

Preamps I have tried in my system ranged from ARC Ref-3 and Spectral SS-30mk2 (solid state) to $100k Kondo M-1000mk2. I still much preferred the direct to amp connection.

And if you consider the fact, that for the extra cash needed to buy a good preamp, additional IC and power cord (another $20k easily), you can get the Vivaldi insted of Paganini for example with the associated performance boost - going direct is a no brainer.

Adam you are preaching to the choir on this one.

I used to share exactly this opinion, it's technically sound. I now think it is not quite as straight forward as that.

In my case I may be getting additional benefit due to the 18NS allowing me to connect the 108 through the true 50ohm zeel BNC interlink.

Anyways, I prefer the sound this way, and the Weiss Medea+ has a 0.2ohm output stage with beefier I/V discreet opamps than I have ever seen in any other DAC analogue output stage....

I do not feel I am adding coloration to the sound, as I prefer the purity I get dac direct in the mid and higher frequencies. But with the pre the drive, punch and presence in the lower frequencies is unquestionably superior.

[Elberoth]

This is just a coloration. I'm sure you can even measure it. You happen to like it, and that is fine with me. some people like looking through a certain glasses (not necesserly pink) as the colors seem more saturated. But that is not real.

IMO you should choose the components so that they will sound right without the preamp's added distortion.

[Still-One]

This is just a coloration. I'm sure you can even measure it. You happen to like it, and that is fine with me. some people like looking through a certain glasses (not necesserly pink) as the colors seem more saturated. But that is not real.

IMO you should choose the components so that they will sound right without the preamp's added distortion.
Adam
Since there is nothing real in hi-fi. Everything is up to interpretation. It is like going to the art museum and arguing about which painting you like better.

About your last sentence, what would you rather have hanging in your den, a digital photograph of the Mona Lisa or a artists oil copy? The digital photo may be more accurate but probably not more pleasing. :dunno:

[jdebonth]

I do not feel I am adding coloration to the sound, as I prefer the purity I get dac direct in the mid and higher frequencies. But with the pre the drive, punch and presence in the lower frequencies is unquestionably superior.

This is just a coloration. I'm sure you can even measure it. You happen to like it, and that is fine with me. some people like looking through a certain glasses (not necesserly pink) as the colors seem more saturated. But that is not real. IMO you should choose the components so that they will sound right without the preamp's added distortion.

I am not so sure how this can be drawn as the logical conclusion. I am saying I prefer the mid's & high's without the preamp and that the preamps adds a certain drive and control to the bass. Is this added drive a coloration... or the result of an output stage that is operating more within it's comfort zone and hence generating a sound that is more true to source? How can anyone, you or me, comment as to which is more accurate and less colored?

[Cellindo]

The Puccini allows for -30dB attenuation (with its 6 volts output setting). This is according to dCS technical support. Actually several months of tests told me that even at -34/35dB one cannot hear the bit resolution degradation.

When I add my preamp, I get a significantly deeper soundstage. Is it a "distortion"/artefact brung from my Shindo preamp, I don't know ? It could possibly be...

One good point is that the bass is not that much better if the XLR interconnect cable between the Puccini and the Accuphase amp is very carefully selected in a "direct drive" configuration. Actually in term of immediacy of the sound and absolute purity of mid's & high's, the direct connection wins in my system. But again, the soundstage is never as deep as with my tubed preamp.

[jdebonth]

I have had the 18NS unplugged for the last month and am coming to the conclusion that this is how I prefer it overall. No constricted soundstage issues over here though going direct.

[Cellindo]

I have had the 18NS unplugged for the last month and am coming to the conclusion that this is how I prefer it overall. No constricted soundstage issues over here though going direct.

Hi jdebonth,

So, finally the NO preamp is the prefered option for you, right. What is the typical volume setting on your DAC for average listening volume?

I'm ranging from -25dB (some classical music) down to -48dB (pop/rock with loudness war syndrom...).

Your DAC is a dCS or another brand?

I've been told that the MSB's analog volume control is truly excellent and could replace the very best preamp in any system.

[bzr]

Hi jdebonth,

So, finally the NO preamp is the prefered option for you, right. What is the typical volume setting on your DAC for average listening volume?

I'm ranging from -25dB (some classical music) down to -48dB (pop/rock with loudness war syndrom...).

Your DAC is a dCS or another brand?

I've been told that the MSB's analog volume control is truly excellent and could replace the very best preamp in any system.

I've owned the top of the peckerheads order in dacs & had the msb diamond this & that, guess what, it is "very' good, the best I have experienced to date, but alas I now have a Soulution pre-amp.......

[jdebonth]

Yes I am preferring no preamp currently. I have run without preamp for years and after trying several top tier preamps I found the 18NS to bring some positive attributes to the sound (see my posts above). After a month I unplugged the 18NS and am going direct again and am preferring the sound this way now. Maybe it's just the change in sound that appeals to me every time, but I am thinking now that I will get rid of the preamp.

DAC is a weiss medea plus. I am not able to see the exact dB of attenuation I am using as there is no display, but it is not as high as 25-48 dB as with the weiss medea I am able to set the voltage of the output stage to any custom value, I have it currently set to around 1V (at 0dB of digital attenuation).

RE the MSB, if you say you cannot hear the bit resolution degradation, then I don't think think ANY analogue volume control will outperform the digital in your dCS...

(probably if I add the 18NS back in after a month I will prefer it to going direct.... I plan to do this several times and make a final decision. in any case I have not come across any other preamp that I didnt instantly dislike... including the Lyra Connossieur 4.2L SE which has somewhat of a cult following.)

[jfrech]

I've been using my Puccini thru an ARC ref Anniversary to my ref 250 assuming that it sounds better that way. Just today, out of curiosity, and since I had a long length of balanced cables lying around (transparent super, non MM)I went straight to the amp. Holy smokes, unless this is an initial jolt of excitement, this seems to be the way to use DCS gear as they in fact recommend. All the old stereotypes of a direct connection, sterility, dryness, lack of bloom or musicality I simply do not hear. In fact , it seems I can listen louder without the sound getting nasty. Based on this brief impression, if I had an all digital system, a line stage, regardless of price or pedigree, to a certain degree compromises performance. Btw, my normal cable connection bet Puccini and line stage to power amp are Kubala Emotions.

I used to own a Puccini, I though direct to my Ayre MX-R's was more transparent...however I liked the preamp better a touch of sweetness and seemed to image better (tube preamp Nagra PLL) with really no loss in resolution.

Surprised no one commented on the difference in interconnect...Transparent Super non MM vs KS. You might be hearing some of the cable here, I for one think Transparent and dCS are a fantastic combo. Try one of Transparent's better cables...like the Ref w/MM2....I think you might seriously enjoy...

[Cellindo]

Btw guys,

dCS products should better be used via their XLR outputs. They are seriously better than the RCA outputs.
Then add the 6 volts output setting and a Puccini (or other dCS DAC's) become stellar !

[jfrech]

Btw guys,

dCS products should better be used via their XLR outputs. They are seriously better than the RCA outputs.
Then add the 6 volts output setting and a Puccini (or other dCS DAC's) become stellar !

Hmm are you sure? I thought they were pretty equivalent...really dictated by your downstream components...

Years ago I think this was different possibly...but not the recent dCS gear...

Not challenging you..just curious did you read about this or try it on your own...just trying to understand the context please...Thanks

[Cellindo]

I tried myself and my tests ended-up with this conclusion.

Moreover, the litterature explains that the XLR output is straight from the balanced internal RingDAC while the RCA output goes thru an additional OP amp (which is obvious because the output level is the same on both output types. This means the single-ended output level has been boosted by a factor of 2 ie. +6dB).

Of course, when used on its RCA outputs a Puccini is still a great CD player/DAC. I'm just saying that to max out what it could give, the XLR outputs are better, even more so with the 6 Volts setting.

I've extensively experimented the following combinations: RCA 2V / XLR 2V / XLR 6 Volts. That was my evolution over 4 years of Puccini usage. ;)