Brief review of my Clearaudio Champion Level II

[Jerome W]

At last, here are some words on my new TT.
Clearaudio Champion level II, Satisfy Ebony arm, Talismann MC cart.
Pictures are here : http://audioaficionado.org/turntables/43-lets-see-your-turntable-16.html#post29293

Compared to a Linn LP12 / Basik LVX / Goldring 1042 MM cart ( only by memory cause the Linn has been sold before the Clearaudio arrived...).
Before stating how the Clearaudio sounds to me, I would like to mention that it is very difficult to compare 2 TT's when arms and carts are not the same.
What is due to the cart / arm versus the base plate / motor ? Moreover, the arm and cart that were on the LP12 are in a lower range compared to the Clearaudio ones, especially for the cart.
But I will also try to compare the Clearaudio to the LP12 SE, fully loaded, also by memory.

1) Isolation.
The LP12 is as everyone knows a suspended design. Which means it is probably more insensitive to vibrations compared to high mass designs. And I can hear that when I walk in the room or close a window. With the LP12, nothing happens. The Clearaudio looses the groove on big vibes made by steps and so on. A bit frustrating.
But even with high SPL, and lots of bass vibes, the good point of the Clearaudio is that when you put your hand on the second baseplate, the one that holds the platter, you don't feel any vibration. Neither on the platter itself. On the first base plate, the one corresponding to the level I, you can feel light vibes. Not any more on the second plate. So the construction is very solid. It seems the Clearaudio is not sensitive to the vibrations of the music, though very sensitive to footsteps, but that's no big deal.
2) Static electricity : Nothing with the Clearaudio. Awful with the Linns....
3) Sound.
A- Paperboys live at Stockfish Records.
Clearaudio : nothing more to wish. A fully bodied, balanced, detailed and yet charming and warm sound. Impressive bass and dynamics overall.
"Basik LP12" : very good overall sound but clearly inferior to the Clearaudio for all the characteristics stated.
LP12 fully loaded : very similar to the Clearaudio. Maybe a bass just a bit tighter but I'm not sure.
B- Chet Atkins "Mister Guitar".
Clearaudio : very good overall but a bit dry. Details are top notch. Bass is very clear
Basik LP12 : less details. Less bass. But a much more pleasant and charming sound. More "juicy", although certainly less neutral than the Clearaudio. It seems that the old design of the Linn could be more able to convey the charm of the old guitar sound of Chet. LP12 is clearly a winner here.
LP12 fully loaded : not tested with this record
C- Gary Peacock " Tales of Another" with K. Jarrett and J. DeJohnette
Clearaudio : impressive bass. Good medium and treble. Nice stereo image. Very large and deep.
Basik LP12 : some distortion on the treble sometimes ( piano and cymbals )
Bass with less extension and precision compared to the Clearaudio.
LP12 SE : wonderful result. Bass similar to the Clearaudio. Treble more precise and more extended. Cymbals like I never heard them before. Extremely detailed. Clearly a winner here on this very difficult record.

More comparaisons to come, on more records.
Overall feeling :
The Clearaudio for 5600 euros list price is a great TT.
Much better than a Basik LP12 and a Majik LP12 I suppose.
But more neutral than the LP12.
The LP12 is always warm. The Clearaudio is only warm when the record is warm. Can be a bit dry and less “charming” on some others.
The LP12 SE is better than the Clearaudio on all the records, but not by a large margin.
On a percentage scale, I would say it is 10 to 15 % better and only for lower bass and extreme treble. If you feel that an increase of sound quality by about 10 % worths 12000 euros more (the LP12 SE list price is 17000 euros for the standard Radikal Power supply version).
By these times of crisis, I’m very happy with the Clearaudio and would not dream of the LP12 SE anymore…. But who knows ?

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......Excellent, and honest impressions. I enjoyed reading this. Your photos of the Clearaudio Champion level II, Satisfy Ebony arm, and Talismann MC cartridge are spectacular. In particular, I love this photo of the McIntosh C1000C/P and MDA1000 sitting next to the Clearaudio turntable. It looks so rich, and alluring. Your sound room has really come together this year. Beautiful.


http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad339/sondeck/HIFI/P1000009.jpg?t=1248522324

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......Excellent, and honest impressions. I enjoyed reading this. Your photos of the Clearaudio Champion level II, Satisfy Ebony arm, and Talismann MC cartridge are spectacular. In particular, I love this photo of the McIntosh C1000C/P and MDA1000 sitting next to the Clearaudio turntable. It looks so rich, and alluring. Your sound room has really come together this year. Beautiful.


http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad339/sondeck/HIFI/P1000009.jpg?t=1248522324

Thanks Dan !
My acoustics panels ( 10 of them ! ) will be on the lateral walls according to your drawings in september. I really still have a high flutter echo and too much reverberation. I will send you a picture and will post a review on the "room treatment" thread.
Cheers,
Jérôme

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......Believe it or not, just yesterday I was looking at the drawings I made for you, examining the one showing the panels on the sloped ceiling areas. From what you say about flutter (slap) echo, it will likely take a few panels on each side of those areas to tame the relected sound from the large, smooth surfaces.

Hopefully, installing the panels elsewhere will get the acoustics under control. Feel free to PM me if you need some additional help/opinions.

[gregswaim]

You're comparing "apples to oranges". You old LP12 probably does not have a Cirkus Bearing - this is standard on all new LP12's. Your old LP12 has a inferior and old tonearm and it's sporting a MM pickup vs a MC pickup that your new one does.
Update your old LP12 base to current spec, add a Akito/Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm, and a Lyra Argo i ,and then do a A/B. If you get the Majik LP12 just add a MC pickup then do a A/B. I think that you'll be quite surprised.
You also mentioned the LP12 SE- that's Linn's current reference TT so again you'll be comparing "apples to oranges" if you were to A/B your new Clearaudio budget TT against the Linn reference model. Not many TT's in the world even come close to the level of performance that Linn LP12 SE does. Just my opinion.

[1KW]

Jerome

I would be very happy your tt :D I am the one with the truly budget tt .
Greg, we know you like your tt but you were a bit harsh with your comments about the clearaudio tt that Jerome just bought. Maybe you are just having a bad day.

[Jerome W]

You're comparing "apples to oranges". You old LP12 probably does not have a Cirkus Bearing - this is standard on all new LP12's. Your old LP12 has a inferior and old tonearm and it's sporting a MM pickup vs a MC pickup that your new one does.
Update your old LP12 base to current spec, add a Akito/Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm, and a Lyra Argo i ,and then do a A/B. If you get the Majik LP12 just add a MC pickup then do a A/B. I think that you'll be quite surprised.
You also mentioned the LP12 SE- that's Linn's current reference TT so again you'll be comparing "apples to oranges" if you were to A/B your new Clearaudio budget TT against the Linn reference model. Not many TT's in the world even come close to the level of performance that Linn LP12 SE does. Just my opinion.

Hi,

I would not qualify the Clearaudio as a "budget TT" (even if I know some TT's retail for 150000 euros including the Big Verdier, made just 3 miles from where I live). 5600 euros is still some money, at least according to my wife !
Yes you're right on the "older design" of my LP12, and also the fact I 'm comparing apples and oranges.
But let me add these points :
- Many LP12 afficionados did not take the upgrade path of the Cirkus, Lingo etc... because they think that the improvements are not so high compared to the price paid. Moreover some " improvements" are absolutely bad. The Trampoline for example gives poorer results compared to no base at all and having the plinth put on solid supports. In Asia, many audiophiles use ebony cubes to put the plinth on.
- I know my old LP12 could have been outperformed by a Majik LP12 but I doubt it. The guy who bought my LP12 listened to the Majik before and did not find it better than my "old" LP12.
- The Basik LP12 or Majik current LP12 are wonderful tables. It is certainly one of the best TT you can find when you talk of listening pleasure. The LP12 has a very particular warm and charming sound who made its success. I loved mine. It is no comparable to any other TT. But the LP12 is also known to be less dynamic compared to other TTs and the bass is not the more detailed and deep around.
- Talking about the fully loaded LP12 SE : I know it very well. I knew it with the Lingo II and Linto and now I listened to it for more than 10 hours with the new Radikal and Urika : my best friend has it. So it was on my buying list. Untill I listened to the Clearaudio.
The LP12 SE ( Keel, Ekos SE, Akiva, Radikal, Urika ) is certainly one if not the best TT in the world. But the difference in sound with the Clearaudio is not large to my ears. That's all I stated.

Cheers,

[jdandy]

Greg.......As a point of reference, this Clearaudio Emotion CMB Turntable w/ Satisfy Carbon Tonearm is a budget turntable, at $1400.00 out the door with the Maestro cartridge.

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=14435&c=ACCT106601&h=27de8ed6a99da3a7df06

Jérôme's beautiful Clearaudio Champion Level II, with the Satisfy Ebony arm, and Talismann MC cartridge is a long, long way from budget, as you put it. That you would use the word budget to describe his new Clearaudio Champion level II turntable is narrow minded at best, in my opinion. In the same breath it would be fair to say the Linn LP-12, in whatever analogous appendage level it might be assembled, is a budget turntable when compared to so many other truly high-end, extremely well engineered and manufactured turntables from other manfacturers around the globe. The Linn LP12 doesn't magically become a mystically superior turntable by simply declaring all other turntables as budget.

Linn makes a fine turntable. Many hold it in high regard, while many do not. Perhaps your comment was not meant to sound as though Jérôme's turntable is somehow deficient in importance, but it certainly struck me that way.

Here's another bottle of the elixir concoction you enjoy so much. :D


http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/LinnBottle-1.jpg

[PHC1]

Jerome, thanks for sharing your impressions of the Clearaudio table. :thumbsup: I am not sure of the dimensions of your table but if you are having problems with mistracking while walking around, look into a Gingko or similar vibration platform to see if they would work for your table. It makes a significant difference in sound as well. :yes:

Greg, the Linn is a fine table and the SE version makes it better but I wouldn't go around claiming it to be the 'worlds best". There are many tables out there and those guys haven't exactly been sitting on their hands. :D Yes, I have heard a Linn SE recently. There are a few other tables that I have heard that belong in a higher category of sound quality for sure. :yes:

[Jerome W]

Jerome, thanks for sharing your impressions of the Clearaudio table. :thumbsup: I am not sure of the dimensions of your table but if you are having problems with mistracking while walking around, look into a Gingko or similar vibration platform to see if they would work for your table. It makes a significant difference in sound as well. :yes:

Greg, the Linn is a fine table and the SE version makes it better but I wouldn't go around claiming it to be the 'worlds best". There are many tables out there and those guys haven't exactly been sitting on their hands. :D Yes, I have heard a Linn SE recently. There are a few other tables that I have heard that belong in a higher category of sound quality for sure. :yes:

Thanks for the tip Serge !
I will look for that Gingko right away...
BTW, I loved your reviews of your Performance TT, and especially the one about the set-up :tresbon: ! I 'm not a "real man" yet. I have kids I try to raise the good way but :
- I still did not plant any tree
- I still don't know and understand how to set-up a TT !! :D
Cheers,
Jérôme

[PHC1]

Thanks for the tip Serge !
I will look for that Gingko right away...
BTW, I loved your reviews of your Performance TT, and especially the one about the set-up :tresbon: ! I 'm not a "real man" yet. I have kids I try to raise the good way but :
- I still did not plant any tree
- I still don't know and understand how to set-up a TT !! :D
Cheers,
Jérôme

It's never too late. :D Setup is not difficult as long as you have the necessary tools, steady hands, good eyesight and p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e! :thumbsup:

[Jerome W]

Greg.......As a point of reference, this Clearaudio Emotion CMB Turntable w/ Satisfy Carbon Tonearm is a budget turntable, at $1400.00 out the door with the Maestro cartridge.

http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=14435&c=ACCT106601&h=27de8ed6a99da3a7df06

Jérôme's beautiful Clearaudio Champion Level II, with the Satisfy Ebony arm, and Talismann MC cartridge is a long, long way from budget, as you put it. That you would use the word budget to describe his new Clearaudio Champion level II turntable is narrow minded at best, in my opinion. In the same breath it would be fair to say the Linn LP-12, in whatever analogous appendage level it might be assembled, is a budget turntable when compared to so many other truly high-end, extremely well engineered and manufactured turntables from other manfacturers around the globe. The Linn LP12 doesn't magically become a mystically superior turntable by simply declaring all other turntables as budget.

Linn makes a fine turntable. Many hold it in high regard, while many do not. Perhaps your comment was not meant to sound as though Jérôme's turntable is somehow deficient in importance, but it certainly struck me that way.

Here's another bottle of the elixir concoction you seem to enjoy consuming. :D



http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq255/jdandy_photos/LinnBottle2.jpg


Hi again Dan,
Thanks for your support ! Greg is right about oranges and apples...
Don't be too rough with him anyway.
He is not what we could call a "Linn guy". These guys sware that the only amps, CD players and speakers who can make music are from Linn and everything else is bull S.... It's the same for "Naim guys".
Greg does not have any Linn speakers, and still have Mc, Ears and other electronics !
Cheers,
Jérôme

[Jerome W]

Jerome

I would be very happy your tt :D I am the one with the truly budget tt .
Greg, we know you like your tt but you were a bit harsh with your comments about the clearaudio tt that Jerome just bought. Maybe you are just having a bad day.

Thanks David !

This is budget TT : :D

[Still-One]

I think we all know once you get above a certain level of audio components it is not always a matter of better rather a matter of ones preference.
Jim

[Jerome W]

I think we all know once you get above a certain level of audio components it is not always a matter of better rather a matter of ones preference.
Jim

The voice of wisdom Jim ! :thumbsup:

[PHC1]

I think we all know once you get above a certain level of audio components it is not always a matter of better rather a matter of ones preference.
Jim

True but the "better" part comes in when a component strikes all the right notes for the preference of the listener. :D Of course "better" is an illusive term since preferences do vary from person to person. :yes:

[vintage_tube]

Jerome,

Regarding your isolation issues with the TT -- if I was you & before I spent the Euros -- suggest you contact Martin at Clearaudio (in Erlangen, Ge) and ask them for a recommendation.

I had a Ginko & it did it's job, per se; however, it injected other issues, namely more resonance in my playback. I got rid of it. It may work on some setups, but didn't on mine (maybe I needed to add more "balls" ((Hahaha)) to the unit -- had 6).

Even though I do not have a badged "clearaudio" table, I've always liked what I heard. By the way, a nice write up and definitely a beautiful setup.

Bob

[Jerome W]

Jerome,

Regarding your isolation issues with the TT -- if I was you & before I spent the Euros -- suggest you contact Martin at Clearaudio (in Erlangen, Ge) and ask them for a recommendation.

I had a Ginko & it did it's job, per se; however, it injected other issues, namely more resonance in my playback. I got rid of it. It may work on some setups, but didn't on mine (maybe I needed to add more "balls" ((Hahaha)) to the unit -- had 6).

Even though I do not have a badged "clearaudio" table, I've always liked what I heard. By the way, a nice write up and definitely a beautiful setup.

Bob

Thanks Bob ! I will contact Martin.
Anyway, LP playback is for my personal pleasure: I won't make parties with it, with people dancing around so the fact that when I walk nearby the TT, the cart jumps is actually no big deal. Of course, if it could be resolved easily, it would be nice...

[PHC1]

Jerome,

Regarding your isolation issues with the TT -- if I was you & before I spent the Euros -- suggest you contact Martin at Clearaudio (in Erlangen, Ge) and ask them for a recommendation.

I had a Ginko & it did it's job, per se; however, it injected other issues, namely more resonance in my playback. I got rid of it. It may work on some setups, but didn't on mine (maybe I needed to add more "balls" ((Hahaha)) to the unit -- had 6).

Even though I do not have a badged "clearaudio" table, I've always liked what I heard. By the way, a nice write up and definitely a beautiful setup.

Bob

Gingko Cloud has various platforms and need to be "tuned" to the specific weight of the table. When I first installed my Cloud 14A with 5 balls, it was too many. The sound lost it's magic and became brittle. Removing one ball to retune the system to total weight of the table and the top cover of the Cloud specifically designed to add mass with the 14A model, worked out much better. Fine tuning the VTF restored the balance of warmth and resolution and the leanness and brittleness was once again replaced with soul satisfying tonal balance. :music:

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......I wasn't trying to be tough on Greg. We are friends. I just wanted to make my point.

Years ago I went through the Xerox Professional Sales Training Program. An important lesson taught as part of the program, you never discredit another product in an attempt to bolster yours. Your product, whether it be a copy machine or a turntable, must stand on its own merits. We were taught that disparaging a competitor's product reduces your own credibility. I have never forgotten that lesson. It is sage advice, and can be applied in so many other areas of life.

I am guilty of doing the same thing sometimes while excitedly trying to make a point. No one is perfect, but I try to remain aware of the consequences of my actions. My basic philosophy is, if my action does not create a positive reaction, then I might want to reconsider my action. I try to keep it simple, and maintain a low stress level. Humor is a great tool, as well. Laughter is universal, and really is the best medicine.

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......I wasn't trying to be tough on Greg. We are friends. I just wanted to make my point.

Years ago I went through the Xerox Professional Sales Training Program. An important lesson taught as part of the program, you never discredit another product in an attempt to bolster yours. Your product, whether it be a copy machine or a turntable, must stand on its own merits. We were taught that disparaging a competitor's product reduces your own credibility. I have never forgotten that lesson. It is sage advice, and can be applied in so many other areas of life.

I am guilty of doing the same thing sometimes while excitedly trying to make a point. No one is perfect, but I try to remain aware of the consequences of my actions. My basic philosophy is, if my action does not create a positive reaction, then I might want to reconsider my action. I try to keep it simple, and maintain a low stress level. Humor is a great tool, as well. Laughter is universal, and really is the best medicine.

Very well said Dan ! as always...
I agree with everything you stated in your reply to Greg. You haven't been rude, just very honest. I knew anyway you would react to Greg's post because I know you're not a LP12 fan !
You're so right when you ay that one should not discredit an other product / competitor etc...
I made that mistake when I was younger, and I paid the price for it !

To come back to the TT and EB1i, I just listened again to Gary Peacok "tales of another " record. Both sides. The Double bass is really awesome. I think my EB1i are now expressing their full potential now. I never heard Peacok's bass so deep, rich and tight. It is clear as crystal and this is something very rare for bass. You would sware the instrument is in the room. The Cymbals are also amazing and K. Jarrett's piano is just perfectly toned. I will never say Thanks enough to you for having me discovering these truly wonderful speakers ( And to Mike Sastra at AC). When I hear that and take so much pleasure, I tend to think I don't need more panels.... The dealer who set up the TT did not find any problem with the acoustics of the room. When I speak loudly and tap in my hands, I hear so many vibrations though.
The point is that everything is OK with the volume up to 40 / 45.
After that you really hear the resonances in the way that you experience some fatigue.
I can't wait to try this Lyngdorf RP1 as I'm not sure I will be able to try a MEN 220 at home.... : maybe this kind of separate could be a good improvement to the sound in my room.

Cheers,
Jérôme

[KMC45]

What's the best country in the world-Linn

What's the best car to own-Linn

What's the best meal to serve-Linn

What's the best tv made-Linn

What's the best best-Linn

I detect a pattern here, and for the record, Linn sucks.:D

[jdandy]

No doubt, there are plenty of folks who think spinning vinyl is the path to audio bliss. Thankfully, vinyl jockeys have a host of talanted, highly skilled engineers and craftsmen worldwide that are diligently working to advance the state of the art in turntables to satisfy your desires. I found a list of the world's 10 most expensive turntables, as revealed at BornRich.org.



10. TEAC’s VPI HR-X1 turntable. Price: $19,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/teacs-vpi-hr-x1_48.jpg



9. ClearAudio Master Reference. Price: US $19,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/clearaudio-master-reference_48.jpg



8. Proscenium Black Diamond Turntable. Price: US $40,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/proscenium-black-diamond-turntable_48.jpg



7. SME 30 Turntable. Price: US $40,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/sme-30-turntable_48.jpg



6. DaVinciAudio Labs AAS Gabriel. Price: US $41,250
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/davinciaudio-labs-aas-gabriel_48.jpg



5. Continuum Caliburn. Price: $90,000 to $112,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/continuum-caliburn_48.jpg



4. Clearaudio Statement. Price: US $125,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/clearaudio-statement_48.jpg



3. Transrotor Artus. Price: US $150,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/transrotor-artus_48.jpg



2. Basis Audio’s ‘Work of Art’ turntable. Price: US $150,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/basis-audios-work-of-art_48.jpg



1. Goldmund’s Reference II. Price: US $300,000
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/goldmund-reference-ii_48.jpg


According to BornRich.org, there are only 25 Goldmund Reference II turntables on the planet. They say limited editions of 25 units are sold on subscription with a maximum production of 5 units per year. If you want a new Goldmund Reference II, and can pony up the $300K, there will be a minimum of a one year wait, providing there are no others in line ahead of you.

Gosh, I don't remember seeing a Linn LP-12. Hmmm.

[Vintage Pete]

All that, just to spin vinyl!! :screwy:

Myself, I still wouldn't mind having an Oracle Delphi Mark V.

Pete

[jdandy]

Pete.......Yeah, the grand sum $ total of my 150 or so albums would not even buy a high-end cartridge, much less a nice turntable.

I am still impressed with the Thorens TD 550.

6moons audio did a nice review: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/thorens2/550.html

http://www.thorens.com/uploads/pics/image-td550-2.jpg

http://www.thorens.com/uploads/pics/image-td550-4.jpg

[1KW]

High end turntables certainly are a piece of art . I like to look at the intricate designs. Maybe someday. I just paid tuition to Vanderbilt University today :D .

[jdandy]

I just paid tuition to Vanderbilt University today :D .

Ouch!

A great university. Beautiful campus.

[PHC1]

High end turntables certainly are a piece of art . I like to look at the intricate designs. Maybe someday. I just paid tuition to Vanderbilt University today :D .

Here is to your wallet's recovery! :beerchug: Hope it feels better real soon. :D

[1KW]

So Serge,

What are going to put in your home theater ? Are you going to integrate your current speakers and amps or are you going to have a separate 2 channel room and start from scratch in the home theater ? Would you consider using Mcintosh in the home theater ? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Jerome W]

What's the best country in the world-Linn

What's the best car to own-Linn

What's the best meal to serve-Linn

What's the best tv made-Linn

What's the best best-Linn

I detect a pattern here, and for the record, Linn sucks.:D

When your motto is as stupid as "The only sound", that's no wonder if you find some people to believe it...
Linn makes some great products and some great recordings. They have also some overrated ones ( like all the companies ? ), or at least products they consider to be the best, and that are easily outperformed by other brands.
But of course, they are not the only sound.
BTW, what do you mean by " for the record, Linn sucks " ?

[Jerome W]

Pete.......Yeah, the grand sum $ total of my 150 or so albums would not even buy a high-end cartridge, much less a nice turntable.

I am still impressed with the Thorens TD 550.

6moons audio did a nice review: 6moons audio reviews: Thorens TD-550 (http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/thorens2/550.html)

http://www.thorens.com/uploads/pics/image-td550-2.jpg

http://www.thorens.com/uploads/pics/image-td550-4.jpg

Beautiful one Dan ! and certainly very well crafted and engineered.

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......The Thorens TD 550 turntable is a beauty. My problem is justifying $12K for the turntable, plus a cartridge, just to play my 150 albums, especially since I rarely listen to them on my Micro Seiki turntable now. The TD 550 is a sexy looking turntable, though, especially in the macassar wood and chrome. It looks pretty good in glass black, too.


http://www.thorens.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/teaser-td550-1.jpg

[Still-One]

Okay guys. How come you scared Greg away? Hope he is just on vacation, or more likely taking pictures of his wife for his Avatars.

[jdandy]

Jim.......I saw Greg online earlier this afternoon. He was lurking. I think he's ok. He took a little ribbing, but no big deal. Like belly buttons, we all have opinions. Such is life. It's good that you are checking up on him.

[Jerome W]

Okay guys. How come you scared Greg away? Hope he is just on vacation, or more likely taking pictures of his wife for his Avatars.

:D:D:D:D:D : I'm waiting for these new avatars so I hope he is not extremely upset cause I would miss them ! ( and also his nice and interesting posts of course ! :thumbsup: )

Jérôme

[KMC45]

Jerome,

I was just giving Greg a little more **** with the "for the record comment". I actually like some of their older, basic tables. They seem like pretty good buys.

[PHC1]

Jim.......I saw Greg online earlier this afternoon. He was lurking. I think he's ok. He took a little ribbing, but no big deal. Like belly buttons, we all have opinions. Such is life. It's good that you are checking up on him.

And Greg would be upset why??? Because Linn is a fine table but may not be the best in the world??? :scratch2: :D I think he is more mature than that. :yes:

[thughes]

Hope he is just on vacation, or more likely taking pictures of his wife for his Avatars.


Are those avatars his wife?

[Jerome W]

I think we should stop talking about Greg while he's not here... :D

I always appreciate his comments and avatars.
To come back to the subject, he was right for most of the things he stated.
The LP12SE is a wonderful TT.
I just stated that to my ears, my set-up is very close to it.
That's his right not to agree with that.
But Greg, I 'm just wondering if you listened to the Clearaudio once ? Cause I listened to the LP12SE more than 10 hours and not just in a store. , so I think I know it pretty well.

Cheers,
Jérôme

[Still-One]

Are those avatars his wife?
He would occasionally post one of his wife. Not all of them were his wife.
Jim

[Still-One]

I think we should stop talking about Greg while he's not here... :D


Jérôme
I was hoping Greg would see that many of us are missing his posts.

Jim

[thughes]

... well, if that was his wife, who could fault him for spending his time away from AA?

[Jerome W]

... well, if that was his wife, who could fault him for spending his time away from AA?


:roflmao:
You could be wrong here : sometimes, the most beautiful women are not the hottest ones !

I'm preparing a very detailed A / B direct comparison between the MDA 1000 - Linn Ikemi CD set-up and the Clearaudio LP player, which should be more interesting than just comparing the Clearaudio to the Linn sound.
I have several records both in CD and LP and I will buy more to be the more complete possible ( Acoustic instruments / electronic music / voices / Rock... ). That's a lot of work and analysis so it will take time.
My first conclusions are that it is no wonder if Mc had Clearaudio for basis of its TT. They have the same sonic signature, although differences in sound can be very noticeable. At least, for acoustic instruments recordings ( real ones : piano, cello, drums...) the Clearaudio is clearly above the MDA 1000.
And this is not a question of taste, but it is based on objective observations. For Rock and electronic instruments, that is sometimes the opposite. Very instructive and interesting.
That will help me to know when I should buy a particular record in LP or in CD, when the LP version is available.
I will also wait for the Lyngdorf RP1 to be here to make the tests or if the Lyngdorf don't suit my tastes, a fully complete acoustical treatment of the room, becuase my room has by the moment a big influence on the sound.

Jérôme

[Still-One]

:

At least, for acoustic instruments recordings ( real ones : piano, cello, drums...) the Clearaudio is clearly above the MDA 1000.
And this is not a question of taste, but it is based on objective observations. For Rock and electronic instruments, that is sometimes the opposite. Very instructive and interesting.

Jérôme
:lurk:

[Jerome W]

:lurk:

What do you mean Jim ?

[Still-One]

What do you mean Jim ?
I look forward to reading your observations of digital versus analog but don't expect it to change peoples opinions as to whether one is inherently superior to the other. Those lines seem to have been drawn years ago.

In my opinion it will come down to how each was engineered and mastered and how close the end product meets your preferences about recorded sound.
Jim

[jdandy]

At least, for acoustic instruments recordings ( real ones : piano, cello, drums...) the Clearaudio is clearly above the MDA 1000.
And this is not a question of taste, but it is based on objective observations.

Jérôme

Jérôme.......I cannot help but jump in here. My favorite solo instrument is piano, and I love to listen to its broad frequency range, wide dynamic capabilities from the softest lingering touch to the thunderous hammering of the low octave keys. I enjoy hearing the trailing decay of sustained notes as they gradually decrese in amplitude into silence. This last aspect in particular, among others, is why vinyl does not do it for me with piano, or other solo instruments. The inherent noise floor of records, even well cleaned vinyl records in perfect condition, is such that I cannot completely enjoy the sound of piano. With vinyl, as a note decays, it does not disappear into the blackness of obsolute silence. Sustained, diminishing notes are swallowed by the noise floor of vinyl once the note's amplitude falls below that noise floor level. There is no velvety black silence with vinyl. Add to this the occasional tick, or pop, even minor ones, and my attention is distracted from the musical piece I am trying to enjoy, reducing my overall satisfaction with the listening experience. Included with the persistent noise floor of vinyl are limited and compressed dynamics that all vinyl pressings fall victim to, required by the physical limitations of the medium, and the lacquer cutting prosess of the masters. Mix in the degradation of vinyl stampers as the records are pressed, particulally at the end of a stampers useful life cycle, and getting a premium vinyl copy of a recording is more or less a crap shoot.

Solo piano, as well as any other solo instrument for that matter, requires complete background silence as a showcase for every note played. Silence is as much a part of a performance as sound. Fill that silence with noise, any noise, and you are no longer listening to a solo instument, you are listening to the instrument plus the noise. That is a duet I prefer not to endure. It's like trying to listen to someone play a delicate sonata on flute with a window air conditioner running in the background. Who wants that? Vinyl's noise floor alone causes a solo performance to become less satisfying to hear. A well recorded and mastered compact disc, played on a premium transport through a premium DAC, provides a much more realistic and satisfying listening experience.

This, of course, is my opinion. I recognize, and accept the fact that other's opinions may differ from mine. I can live with that. :)

[Jerome W]

In my opinion it will come down to how each was engineered and mastered and how close the end product meets your preferences about recorded sound.
Jim

Very good point Jim.
I think the mastering process of an LP version is not necessarily the same as the CD version. So comparisons are not only on the components of the sound system, but also the mastering process.
So, for some recordings, the LP could sound much better than the CD, not due to the fact it is a LP, but due to an better work by the sound engineer, or the reverse.
I may be wrong but I noticed that LP reissues have a very good mastering in many cases, maybe because this market is now for audiophiles, and this could be an advantage of vynil against CD.

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......I cannot help but jump in here. My favorite solo instrument is piano, and I love to listen to its broad frequency range, wide dynamic capabilities from the softest lingering touch to the thunderous hammering of the low octave keys. I enjoy hearing the trailing decay of sustained notes as they gradually decrese in amplitude into silence. This last aspect in particular, among others, is why vinyl does not do it for me with piano, or other solo instruments. The inherent noise floor of records, even well cleaned vinyl records in perfect condition, is such that I cannot completely enjoy the sound of piano. With vinyl, as a note decays, it does not disappear into the blackness of obsolute silence. Sustained, diminishing notes are swallowed by the noise floor of vinyl once the note's amplitude falls below that noise floor level. There is no velvety black silence with vinyl. Add to this the occasional tick, or pop, even minor ones, and my attention is distracted from the musical piece I am trying to enjoy, reducing my overall satisfaction with the listening experience. Included with the persistent noise floor of vinyl are limited and compressed dynamics that all vinyl pressings fall victim to, required by the physical limitations of the medium, and the lacquer cutting prosess of the masters. Mix in the degradation of vinyl stampers as the records are pressed, particulally at the end of a stampers useful life cycle, and getting a premium vinyl copy of a recording is more or less a crap shoot.

Solo piano, as well as any other solo instrument for that matter, requires complete background silence as a showcase for every note played. Silence is as much a part of a performance as sound. Fill that silence with noise, any noise, and you are no longer listening to a solo instument, you are listening to the instrument plus the noise. That is a duet I prefer not to endure. It's like trying to listen to someone play a delicate sonata on flute with a window air conditioner running in the background. Who wants that? Vinyl's noise floor alone causes a solo performance to become less satisfying to hear. A well recorded and mastered compact disc, played on a premium transport through a premium DAC, provides a much more realistic and satisfying listening experience.

This, of course, is my opinion. I recognize, and accept the fact that other's opinions may differ from mine. I can live with that. :)

Very good points Dan and I respect your point of view. And I particularly agree with this " Mix in the degradation of vinyl stampers as the records are pressed, particulally at the end of a stampers useful life cycle, and getting a premium vinyl copy of a recording is more or less a crap shoot " : one of the biggest problem with LP's.

But I would tell you my feeling on 2 points :

1 ) Dynamics and stereo image
On the paper, CD has a more wider dynamic range than LP.
But, on many recordings, the feeling of the dynamics is exactly the opposite. CD's sound more flat. Without 3D sense of the instrument.

My first tryout yesterday was with the album " Changeless" by the K. Jarrett trio.
The weight of the instruments was much higher with the LP. The cymbals were more detailed, and went higher on the LP.The bass was also more detailed and the you could more easily follow the hands of G. Peacok on the strings. The CD seemed to simplify all the sounds.
The stereo image was equally wide for LP and CD ( this may be due to my room / speakers configuration), but the LP showed a huge difference in both deepness and height of the instruments. With the LP version, you were in front of the scene. Closing your eyes, you were able to position in a 3D space, each musician. With the CD, this 3D sense was reduced to 1D : wideness. Height was here, but very limited : for example the cymbals were at the lower border of the plasma with CD, which means nothing in a real scene, and they were much higher than the upper border of the plasma TV with the LP. I went to many live concerts of this trio. They are always positionned the same way. Jarrett's piano on the left, drums on the back, bass on the right. . With the CD, they are all on the same line, with very limited height.
To me, this fidelity in reproducing a correct stereo image is something very important to get a "NATURAL SOUND".

2) Piano natural sound.
You may be right on the blacknesses. But I feel the LP reproducing piano is more natural than the CD.
Do you know the great french pianist Michel Petrrucciani ?
Once, I was at a famous store in Paris. He was there. He bought a big Verdier LP. He said to me and to the owner that the sound of the piano on CD was not correct for him. He could hear defects with the LP and not enough details, but, ultimately, the LP was closer to the instrument.
He told us and I remember it precisely : "the LP sound sound is a bit blurred. The CD sound is very accurate but it is not how a real piano sounds. Ultimately, the LP is closer to reality."
This has been confirmed to me by the personnal piano accorder of K. Jarrett, an italian guy, blind, living in Paris, which was my patient when I was a dentist. He was also the official accorder for the pianos at the Scala of Milan and the Albert Hall in London. He has a CD player and a TT home. When he's alone, he uses the CD of course because he's blind. But when his wife is at home, he refuses to listen to CD and always ask her to spin a vinyl ! This guy's opinion is of high value according to me. He spends hours sometimes for 2 notes.
He has an "absolute" human ear. I don't think he could be wrong.
Moreover, I feel exactly the same when I listen to a piano recording.
Talking again about K. Jarrett. The CD version of " Koln concert" has an extreme treble that sounds harsh sometimes or digitally imaged I would say. This is never, never the sound of an extreme treble on any decent piano. This, more than the pops of the LP, makes me not enjoying fully the CD, because to me it's obvious we are hearing sounds that don't exist in the real life. Of course, pops and clicks don't exist also in the real life, but here you know that they are not reproducing the sound of the instrument. They are a parasite noise, besides the real sound. Cd has some parasite sounds in the middle of the sound, directly in the sound of the instrument it is supposed to reproduce. The treble is less accurate on the LP but does not sound harsh in any way on the Lp version.

Cheers,

Jérôme

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......Your points in favor of the analog vinyl record verses the digital compact disc are some of the most convincing pro-vinyl arguments I have ever read. Your concept of the relationship between time and space when applied to imaging was well thought out, and articulately expressed. It is apparent you hear an advantage to the overall musical presentation when listening to vinyl, and you meaningfully described this pleasure clearly. I respect your position, and enjoyed reading your responses. It is also visible that you have been strongly influenced by the opinions of individuals for whom you have great respect. This alone can dramatically impact ones perspective, and add weight to the senses.

I am a vinyl lover, too, with over 43 years of experience spinning records. I understand how much simpler the musical reproduction process is to take an analoge wave form from a vinyl disc by means of a moving mechanical device, route the signal through a circuit to restore proper equalization (RIAA curve), then simply amplify the results. Mechanically recovering an analog wave form is much closer to the essential character of the original music that was recorded. It might very well be true that in the minds eye, as painted by the human ear, the audio presentation takes on a greater sense of reality originating from, and maintaining integrity to a strictly analog source. Of course, this is highly subjective, and will vary greatly from person to person. It makes it easier to understand why one person might prefer piano recordings reproduced from vinyl verses digitally. We can all agree, nothing sounds like a real piano except a real piano. Everything else is a facsimile.

Addressing the point of dynamics and stereo imaging, these are areas that are influence in a large degree by the care with which recordings are mixed, and mastered. Just as you described flat, one dimensional recordings on CD, I have experience the exact same thing from some records, as well as compact discs. The precise opposite is also obtainable from both mediums, providing attention and care are directed to that end. Just last night I listened to a CD by Jacintha titled The Best of Jacintha. The depth of the soundstage, and the imaging of insturmnets and voices was nothing short of spectacular, almost breath taking. Her voice appeared front center stage, while the musicians and individual instruments were clearly place around her from left to right and behind her. She stepped out of the speakers, and into my room. I use this example to express a point. How every aspect of a recording is approached and completed, all the way from the actual live event to the completed disc being in your hand, impacts the quality of what you hear through your sound system. The end results are the cumulative total of every aspect of each process from start to finish. These actions can create wonderful results, or miserable failures in both vinyl and compact discs. Good or bad results are not strictly exclusive to either format.

[jdandy]

Jérôme.......I forgot to mention that I liked the term parasite noise as used to describe pops and ticks in vinyl records. It is a perfect anology.

[1KW]

Analog VS Digital war was decided as Jim said years ago, just as the automobile won out over the horse and buggy, the motorized boat won out over the sail boat . Having said that sometimes riding a horse or going out on a sailboat is fun on occasion :D . It is fun having both but digital music has a whole host of reasons it is here to stay over analog. I was listening to a few LP's in the morning, after flipping the albums 4-5 times I decided to use my music server with lossless recorded cd's.

[Jerome W]

Jérôme.......Your points in favor of the analog vinyl record verses the digital compact disc are some of the most convincing pro-vinyl arguments I have ever read. Your concept of the relationship between time and space when applied to imaging was well thought out, and articulately expressed. It is apparent you hear an advantage to the overall musical presentation when listening to vinyl, and you meaningfully described this pleasure clearly. I respect your position, and enjoyed reading your responses. It is also visible that you have been strongly influenced by the opinions of individuals for whom you have great respect. This alone can dramatically impact ones perspective, and add weight to the senses.

I am a vinyl lover, too, with over 43 years of experience spinning records. I understand how much simpler the musical reproduction process is to take an analoge wave form from a vinyl disc by means of a moving mechanical device, route the signal through a circuit to restore proper equalization (RIAA curve), then simply amplify the results. Mechanically recovering an analog wave form is much closer to the essential character of the original music that was recorded. It might very well be true that in the minds eye, as painted by the human ear, the audio presentation takes on a greater sense of reality originating from, and maintaining integrity to a strictly analog source. Of course, this is highly subjective, and will vary greatly from person to person. It makes it easier to understand why one person might prefer piano recordings reproduced from vinyl verses digitally. We can all agree, nothing sounds like a real piano except a real piano. Everything else is a facsimile.

Addressing the point of dynamics and stereo imaging, these are areas that are influence in a large degree by the care with which recordings are mixed, and mastered. Just as you described flat, one dimensional recordings on CD, I have experience the exact same thing from some records, as well as compact discs. The precise opposite is also obtainable from both mediums, providing attention and care are directed to that end. Just last night I listened to a CD by Jacintha titled The Best of Jacintha. The depth of the soundstage, and the imaging of insturmnets and voices was nothing short of spectacular, almost breath taking. Her voice appeared front center stage, while the musicians and individual instruments were clearly place around her from left to right and behind her. She stepped out of the speakers, and into my room. I use this example to express a point. How every aspect of a recording is approached and completed, all the way from the actual live event to the completed disc being in your hand, impacts the quality of what you hear through your sound system. The end results are the cumulative total of every aspect of each process from start to finish. These actions can create wonderful results, or miserable failures in both vinyl and compact discs. Good or bad results are not strictly exclusive to either format.

Yes Dan,

I think you're absolutely right : at the end, what makes the biggest difference is the quality of the mixing and mastering.
Some cd's sound great of course, and some Lp's sounds bad.
That's why I 'm not sure if such a review I'm planning has any value. But I will do it anyway cause I'm curious.
I will not compare only means of reproduction but different masterings.
I think the only aim would be to see if in general, Lp's for example are better mastered than Cd's, or the opposite.
+ the other problem you mentionned : " Mix in the degradation of vinyl stampers as the records are pressed, particulally at the end of a stampers useful life cycle, and getting a premium vinyl copy of a recording is more or less a crap shoot. " ....

I would add to make it clear that I had this feeling of more natural sound with Lp's before meeting these great individuals. They did not influence me but only had the same opinions than me. So I don't think they influenced me. I was mentionning their point of view just because I consider them to have better ears than mine.
Anyway, at the end, that's of course a question of taste.
High end TTs and CD players both give great sound, but as you said, they are together closed to reality, but they are not reality....

[Jerome W]

Analog VS Digital war was decided as Jim said years ago, just as the automobile won out over the horse and buggy, the motorized boat won out over the sail boat . Having said that sometimes riding a horse or going out on a sailboat is fun on occasion :D . It is fun having both but digital music has a whole host of reasons it is here to stay over analog. I was listening to a few LP's in the morning, after flipping the albums 4-5 times I decided to use my music server with lossless recorded cd's.

David, this analogy with motor boats / sailing ones is very appealing to me cause I'm a sailing addict ( Hobie cat 16 ) !
Motor boats are faster, they are more comfortable, easier and so on.
But I have much more pleasure sailing !
With music, we're just talking about pleasure.
When I work in my office or while on the web, I have the Cd or the Ipod / Wadia i170 playing for convenience.
For serious enjoyment sessions, I tend to favor the Lp's over the cd's.....