Dartzeel 108 upgrade?

[Thimios]

The Dart 108 has been running for almost 9 years with minor upgrades the latest being SNCP circuit. If I understand correctly from my dealer there are no versions A or B anymore. From a Delatraz interview in a French magazine I got that the product pipeline has an integrated amplifier with DAC and a smaller mono version of the 458 producing half the wattage. In other sites it was suggested that Dart 108 will be upgraded by mid 2013 with a wattage increase.
Anybody has any leads/news on this?

[Vin-Wei]

As a Dartzeel owner, I am also very curious about the power upgrade, after living with the 108 for 2 years, the only weakness about this amp is its limited speaker compatibility, if the output power can increase and current model can be upgradeable, this would be the best amp I can think of! has anyone check with the Dart manufacturer directly?

[Elberoth]

The Dart 108 has been running for almost 9 years with minor upgrades the latest being SNCP circuit. If I understand correctly from my dealer there are no versions A or B anymore. From a Delatraz interview in a French magazine I got that the product pipeline has an integrated amplifier with DAC and a smaller mono version of the 458 producing half the wattage. In other sites it was suggested that Dart 108 will be upgraded by mid 2013 with a wattage increase.
Anybody has any leads/news on this?

I belive, all you had written is true. I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the products turn out to be delayed a few months though, could be even a year+.

[Masterlu]

Vin-Wei... Welcome! :wave:

[joeinid]

Welcome Vin-Wei,

I am sure there is something in the works but Dartzeel time is VERY slow, so do not expect anything soon.

[asiufy]

I wouldn't look for an updated 108 as the solution to the speaker compatibility thing. Even if it's upgraded with more power, a smaller monoblock will be the more interesting solution for truly hard to drive speakers, like the Q5, some Dynaudio, MBL, etc.

There'll be an updated/upgraded pre-amp as well.

But, as joe said, darTZeel moves slowly, and the integrated with built-in DAC is the priority, AFAIK.


alexandre

[Vin-Wei]

Thank you Masterlu and Joeinid. I use 108 to drive my Wilson Sasha just like Elberoth, my listening room is not big so the 108 still can drive the Sasha reasonablly well, but can not go too deep. It matches better with my SF Amati.

I agree smaller monoblock is more possible as that is the recent trend of other Swiss hi-end brands, like Goldmund and FM, but I still hope darTzeel can add more juice in the 108.

darTZeel is slow, I waited for about 5 months before the delivery.

[Thimios]

Adam, Joe & Alexandre Thx for the replies. I was considering the purchase of a DArt 108. I guess I'd rather wait.

[joeinid]

Adam, Joe & Alexandre Thx for the replies. I was considering the purchase of a DArt 108. I guess I'd rather wait.

Within its limits, the Dartzeel 108 is absolutely one of the, if not the, finest amps I've ever heard.

[asiufy]

Thimios,

What's your current setup? More likely than not, the 108 will suffice.
And from what I heard, you'd be able to upgrade existing 108s to the new model, for a price.
I'm with Joe, nothing this far has beaten the 108 here. Best amp ever :D



alexandre

[joeinid]

Thimios,

What's your current setup? More likely than not, the 108 will suffice.
And from what I heard, you'd be able to upgrade existing 108s to the new model, for a price.
I'm with Joe, nothing this far has beaten the 108 here. Best amp ever :D



alexandre


Alexandre :hug:,

I've turned two people on to Dartzeel and they are happy. One friend has received many unsolicited comments about how nice his system sounds. Friends of his heard things in very familiar recording with the new system that they have never heard before, ever. Any amp/preamp purchased today can be upgraded in the future and will be cheaper to do that than buying new.

[Elberoth]

IMO thre are only a few speakers that the 108 will not drive to their full potential.

Even with the punishing load of Sasha the sound is still OK, only lacking some punch and LF articulation that some higher feedback designs (like the 911 for example) can offer.

[Elberoth]

PS. I have a feeling that I'm not done with it yet, and may get a third one in the future, LOL.

[mbovaird]

I'm considering it as a second amp. I wonder how it would sound on the Strads with my ARC REF 10 preamp?

[joeinid]

I'm considering it as a second amp. I wonder how it would sound on the Strads with my ARC REF 10 preamp?

Sublime :music:

[Thimios]

Thimios,

What's your current setup? More likely than not, the 108 will suffice.
And from what I heard, you'd be able to upgrade existing 108s to the new model, for a price.
I'm with Joe, nothing this far has beaten the 108 here. Best amp ever :D



alexandre

Alexandre, My system is listed below the signature, but I am in the mist of a complete overhaul to better fit in my new room and have better/simpler aesthetics. Loudspeaker candidates are Magico Q1, Raidho D1/C1.1 or the new Rockport Atria. For Amps I am considering the Dart 108/ Ypsilon Aelius or Vitus. I am keeping my Burmester 089 CD and the full Jorma Origo Cable loom.

[turntable]

I'm considering it as a second amp. I wonder how it would sound on the Strads with my ARC REF 10 preamp?

While the Strads are quite efficient, they are quite hard to drive. See Stereophile measurements.

If you have a large room, not sure the Dart will be at its best. Easily solved thou, just get the 458 mono blocks :D

.The drop-dead gorgeous Stradivari Homage is specified as having a very high 92dB voltage sensitivity; to Sonus Faber's credit, my estimated figure was even higher, at 93dB(B)/2.83V/m. However, the speaker asks the partnering amplifier for a lot of current capability, its impedance (fig.1) dropping to 3 ohms and below for much of the upper bass and midrange. And the combination of 4.4 ohms impedance magnitude and –48 capacitive phase angle at 55Hz will give lesser amplifiers conniptions.

[asiufy]

Thimios,

I haven't heard the new Raidho D 1.1, but the C1.1 was very impressive, lots of bass from that small enclosure. And it's nice to look at too :) And the Rockport I heard (bigger than the new Atria) was impressive also, but with even more bass.
The Q1 could be a good choice for your 108. I'm currently auditioning the Magico Q3 with my 108, and it's...erm... magical :D Best combination I've ever had here.
I really don't get all these people saying that Magico speakers are not musical. Perhaps the gear they partner it with is not that good, and they're blaming the speaker. What I have here is simply sensational, from a music lover's perspective.

turntable,

I don't think that 3 ohm is going to be a problem for the 108, unless you're on a big (like 100m2 big) room. For reference, my old Dynaudio Temptation was 89dB/4ohms, with a low impedance of 2.8. And it could play loud :)


alexandre

[Car commander]

The NHB108B is the best I have heard. I probably would not buy a speaker it would not work with.

[Elberoth]

By hard to drive speakers I meant those with min imp below 2 Ohm in LF. 3 Ohm min is not a tough load for Dart !

[jdebonth]

I have been told by Herve that the 108mk2 is in the works and is aimed to be released in early 2014. Herve will first offer new 108mk2 machines and around 6 months later start to take in 108mk1's for upgrade. I would assume 108mk2's to be available mid '14 and upgrades possible as of early '15. Herve has said the power will be "about twice that of the existing 108".

I was considering having my 108 sent in for the SCNP upgrade however this will be standard as part of the mk2 upgrade so I will likely wait.

[Car commander]

I guess I will worry about it in a couple of years. I bet the upgrade will be 15K or so. The SCNP upgrade is supposed to sound "slightly" better. I guess "slightly" better is what we are all chasing.

[asiufy]

Remember that, in order to get more power, Hervé had to add more output devices. And, my guess, that's why it's taking him this long, as he needs to get the new mk2 unit to sound at least as good, natural and coherent as the existing 108.

I'm with Car commander. Stick with the 108 and pick a different speaker, that's what I did :) If the new mk2 improves things with more power, then you might give another go at the original speaker option.

And what is this SCNP upgrade you guys talking about?


alexandre

[jdebonth]

Alexander - I agree 100%. I think if anything it will be a challenge for Herve to make the MK2 sound as good as the MK1 in doubling the power. Although I have heard from a very prominent 108 owner who moved up to the 458 that the 458's have even more magic than the 108.

The SCNP is a circuit that was introduced in the 108B as of 2010. It improves among other things the current drive. This can be installed at DartZeel on older machines for around 2K$.

p.s. as for me I am fortunate that my #1 speaker choice works beautifully with the 108 :)

[asiufy]

jdebonth,

Ah, my current 108 was made after 2010, so I guess I already have it :)
Regarding the 458, it took an entirely different project (and more output transistors too) for Hervé to get that much power. I'm guessing he doesn't want to change the 108 project too much, to get more power out of it. After all, he's also coming out with the smaller monoblock, that'll be the 458 project scaled down... THAT is actually going to be the sweet spot in the darTZeel line, at least for me :D

alexandre

[jdebonth]

I think for a lot of people, myself included, I am just hoping he can keep the price down!

[Thimios]

CHF appreciation due to financial crisis plays a big role in the increase of Dartzeel product prices in recent years.

[Jerome W]

CHF appreciation due to financial crisis plays a big role in the increase of Dartzeel product prices in recent years.

I wonder when the US will invade Switzerland :D !

[joeinid]

I wonder when the US will invade Switzerland :D !

I hope It's soon. ;) I still have a few items left on my Christmas list. :)

[Car commander]

The SCNP helps with the DC voltage drift and sounds slightly better according to Herve. The DC voltage drift is easily adjustable. The 458's are 155k I think. I guess we will see. In my current rig their is no point. The SCNP upgrade I about 2800 plus shipping.

[Ch1mera1989]

I just read the review of the DarTZeel NHB-458 amp. And damn... The reviewer absolutely goes gaga over them. Great to read such things:D I really like this part:
"That being said, at first you should handle with care; not because it’s fragile, but because this kind of dynamic range is not usually found in audio equipment and you might suffer because of it. This is the audio equivalent of a classic Lamboghini Countach. Hit the throttle (or in this case, the ‘pleasure control’) and hang on to something. Waaaaaaaaaaarrrrrroaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhh! This isn’t just a dynamic-sounding amp, it’s a dynamic amplifier with a supercharger, nitrous oxide injection, twin warp engines and it’s own particle accelerator. All those years with CERN built under the Alps patently rubbed off on the Swiss, and this is the sort of amp that can go from a fraction of a watt to picking loudspeaker drivers out of the wall in an eyeblink."

By the way here's the link to the review (although I'm sure most of you already read it): DarTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks (Hi-Fi+ 77) | AVguide (http://www.avguide.com/review/dartzeel-nhb-458-monoblocks-hi-fi-77)

EDIT: I just saw that there already was a topic about the review.