ET-3 or Older Preamp?

[pstrisik]

Hi Guys,

I'm looking at preamps and would like opinions on what to look at to go with my Premier 11A. Remote control required. Phono not required. I like the traditional tube sound - midrange smoothness, etc., more than the more crystal clear detail of some later tube components by other manufacturers.

So, ET3 or an older model? Will look used - less than $2000.

Thank you....... Peter

Chris - I know you have your ET-3 listed :yes:. Maybe we'll end up talking about a trade for the DNA-250. Also, I just picked up a 2300A on eBay! So, if it checks out when I get it, I will be selling either your 2350A or the 2300A, depending on the shootout results.

[nz022]

I had a Premier 17LS mated to a Premier 11A.

Liked that combo a lot.

Prior to that it was the 11A & Premier TEN.

Preferred the 17LS way more.

[Joe Appierto]

Also had the 17LS (not the 17LS2 with the Teflon caps) running with the Premier 11A and it was a very nice match-up. You have the ability to voice the preamp over a fairly wide range depending on the tubes you roll.

Before that I had a modified PV10A and it was considerably sweeter but I'd recommend the 17LS as a definite on the short list.

[Bugs762]

I'm running an MV60SE with a premier 17ls and I'm very happy with the sound. Way better than the PV11 I had, and an improvement on the Premier 14 I bought after the PV 11.

[pstrisik]

Sounds like the 17LS is a favorite. Looks like it sells used for ~ $1800-2500.

Anyone use the home theatre loop? Would I be able to program my universal remote to switch to it and set input if listening 2 channel and, if using the video, switch to the home theatre loop setting with the remote? Is there power on/off with the remote?

Thanks again........ Peter

[Joe Appierto]

Not sure about the theatre loop questions but if you hit the Mute button on the remote the preamp turns on and if you hold it down for about three seconds, it'll turn off.

[pstrisik]

Not sure about the theatre loop questions but if you hit the Mute button on the remote the preamp turns on and if you hold it down for about three seconds, it'll turn off.

That's interesting! Turning on is the more important, so that would work. I'm not sure if I can get my programmable to give a three second button push, but maybe.

......Peter

[Puma Cat]

Sounds like the 17LS is a favorite. Looks like it sells used for ~ $1800-2500.

Anyone use the home theatre loop? Would I be able to program my universal remote to switch to it and set input if listening 2 channel and, if using the video, switch to the home theatre loop setting with the remote? Is there power on/off with the remote?

Thanks again........ Peter


Peter,
I have a Premier 17LS and can only add to the comments you've read here. It really is a sweet, sweet preamp, and still one of very high performance. When the ET3 came out in 2011, I asked both my C-J dealer and the C-J factory which is the better sounding preamp and both said that, No question, the Premier 17LS is the better-sounding preamp.

[jimtranr]

Peter,
I have a Premier 17LS and can only add to the comments you've read here. It really is a sweet, sweet preamp, and still one of very high performance.

+1...and I know you knew that was coming, Stephen. :D

[aldinohiend]

Premier 17 LS2!!!!

[ronenash]

I agree with all that's been said about the Pr17. Its a better preamp than the ET3. The ET3SE is another story and if you can swing the cash I would go for the ET3SE. More transparent, better clarity and only one tube to replace which makes if much cheaper to swing for the top NOS tubes out there.

[CDLehner]

Guys, let me start by saying I know this post won't be received well. What, with the fact that I've never been the most popular member here...probably at least in part, precisely because of posts like this...and because it's admittedly caustic and contrary.

But I find some of these comments to be somewhat silly and contradictory. Put aside any personal feelings, about my defending the ET-3 because it happens to be the unit I own. As Peter has pointed out, mine's for sale...and this also isn't about trying to convince Peter to buy it. He'll confirm I haven't contacted him in any way...and it's because I was blissfully unaware of such posts, or his interest...as I haven't been around in some time.

I just don't see how some of these comments add up? The Premier 17LS is clearly a better pre-amp than the ET-3? I thought the ET-3 was a "baby-GAT"? And the GAT is the flagship, right? Same circuit...everyone says so...but obviously lesser parts. And then ronenash says ET-3, 17LS, then ET-3SE?

Correct me if I'm wrong again; all the SE is, are upgraded parts? I guess the moral of the story is...and on this, I won't ask you to correct me...because there is no refuting it: the circuit must not mean a damn thing! Why?

Well, the fact that's it's the same circuit as the $20,000 GAT...doesn't even allow it to beat out the 10 year-old design of the 17LS; but add $1500 worth of premium parts and it does? So why would C-J tout the circuit, if secretly they prefer a 10 year-old design and model?

I'll answer my own question...and I'll take the high road, and not say it's the obvious and overwhelming hypocrisy of the hi-end; I'll simply say that everyone has an opinion, and this is how they can manifest themselves. I think a lot of "old-timers", just have a fondness for certain models and sound; or people have a tendency to covet what they know (show of hands...how many who stated a preference, have actually heard both units?).

It's OK; I understand a lot of this hobby is conjecture and hearsay. This guy said...my dealer told me. We can't hear everything, so we do rely on opinions...hopefully, at least, of those we trust. But I do wish audiophiles would practice some perspective. At least say "well, IMO..."; or..."I've never heard it myself, but...". Some of the proclamations here, are ridiculous; IMHO :p

[rthomeint]

I just read CDLehner's post and I have no opinion on this either way as I have never heard a 17LS, ET-3SE, or a GAT. I have heard an ET-3 and ET-5 in systems not my own. I am speculating that maybe the bigger part of the sonic upgrades to more expensive models is the larger power supplies. I would guess the 17LS has a larger power supply that a ET-3 since it has more tubes. I know the ET-3SE adds Teflon caps and key resistors. Does the ET-3SE get a power supply upgrade over the ET-3?

[ronenash]

I just don't see how some of these comments add up? The Premier 17LS is clearly a better pre-amp than the ET-3? I thought the ET-3 was a "baby-GAT"? And the GAT is the flagship, right? Same circuit...everyone says so...but obviously lesser parts. And then ronenash says ET-3, 17LS, then ET-3SE?

Correct me if I'm wrong again; all the SE is, are upgraded parts? I guess the moral of the story is...and on this, I won't ask you to correct me...because there is no refuting it: the circuit must not mean a damn thing! Why?

Well, the fact that's it's the same circuit as the $20,000 GAT...doesn't even allow it to beat out the 10 year-old design of the 17LS; but add $1500 worth of premium parts and it does? So why would C-J tout the circuit, if secretly they prefer a 10 year-old design and model?


CD first let point out that you are very popular with me :hug:
What you are saying is correct but there are two factors to sound quality and they are circuit design and quality of execution (usually the quality of parts and fit and finish).
As someone who had the ET3 and later upgraded it to the ET3SE the difference is a major one :yes: and it all about parts quality from the connector to the capacitors and resistors inside the unit.
Another factor here is the level of execution on the casing of the preamp. The ET3 is built in a rather flimsy case which is prone to vibrations and resonances. I had to damp the case of my preamp considerably with Dynamat to avoid these vibrations which also effect the sound.
The Pr17 was part of CJ's premium line and as such is build to a very high standard. Just pick it up in your hands and you will understand what I mean.
With that said I do agree that the circuit design in the ET3 is much more modern and has many advantages in sound quality over previous designs. Its a great preamp and when executed with CJ best components reaches a level of performance that leaves anything in its price area behind.

Just my 2c :thumbsup:

[jaxwired]

Personally I find it very hard to believe that the SE version of the ET3 sounds that much different than the regular ET3. I tend to agree with CDs assertion that it's the overall design of the component that contributes 97% of the sound character and then you can tweak that last 3% with quality parts.

Having heard and owned serveral different CJ preamps in the past I suspect that the 17LS does not sound anything like the ET3. So it's probably far less a matter of sound quality separating the models and much more just a matter of preference for particular flavor of sound.

[CDLehner]

Personally I find it very hard to believe that the SE version of the ET3 sounds that much different than the regular ET3. I tend to agree with CDs assertion that it's the overall design of the component that contributes 97% of the sound character and then you can tweak that last 3% with quality parts.

Having heard and owned serveral different CJ preamps in the past I suspect that the 17LS does not sound anything like the ET3. So it's probably far less a matter of sound quality separating the models and much more just a matter of preference for particular flavor of sound.

And that was kinda my only point Jax. I guess we're all guilty of it, at some point, and to some extent; after all...we're all in the same club (or all have the same disease...whichever you prefer). Maybe it was knee-jerk...because I hadn't been over here to AA in a while; and I pop-in, and see an ET-3 v. 17LS thread. Ah...something I'd actually be curious to read opinions on; as I actually own/ed an ET-3.

First post is pstrisik might actually be interested in buying my ET-3; hmm...sure wish I'd seen this earlier, lol. Then...every single post, saying the 17LS is better; saying the 17LS is clearly better. I just didn't get it, and as I said...at worst it smacked of hypocrisy.

When we're trying to hold-up the ET-3 (and I'll not name names...but some of the same members in this thread, touted the ET-3 to me) we say: "ET-3? Forgetaboutit! The thing's a baby-GAT for $2500. What's not to like"? Yet...not one person prefers it to the 17LS?

OK; small sample, and those not heard...etc, etc. I just found the comments to be a bit "simple". I mean...what is "better" anyway (and this is not a class on semantics, or an opportunity to pat myself on the back as clearly superior...lol; but you'll see I almost always put my "better" in quotations...because when I say "better", I'm simply expressing an opinion. My "better" doesn't necessarily mean your "better".

And while I'm up on the soap-box; I sometimes think I need to turn my audiophile card in (I prefer enthusiast anyway :p)...because I must not have the golden ears some of you do. I can't imagine that both of these units...aren't fine, fine pre-amps. To hear the differences so clearly, as to unanimously pick a winner; well...you begin to wonder why C-J ever went away from it...and why this much newer model is so inferior. They must be going backwards, from an engineering standpoint?

No, of course not; again...different strokes for different folks, and a matter of taste and opinion. Which should be reflected when commenting on said gear, and was running un-checked until I came along, lol. For the record...I feel the same way (and I know some of you in the C-J club, are also members of the Dynaudio club) when the Dynaudio guys say "man, after 100 hours...the C2s sounded awful". Really; 100 hours after buying them...you thought your $15,000 speakers sounded "awful". Then in another 50 hours they sounded transcendent again? (least we forget, they will take a few more HUGE sonic swings, over the next 150 hours)

Look, I love the hobby. First and foremost, I'm a music lover; but I'd be lying if I said the gear didn't turn me on too. The way it looks, the way it feels; but mostly, of course, the way it sounds. The fact that it's good, and it can add to the music thrilling you. It's nice to have a hobby, and something to be passionate about; something that's yours...and it's almost nice that the wife, and few other people know that much about it. Etc, etc. And yes...those of you who follow me around, might chalk this up to part of that sea-change I'm going through; and I guess I have to take that into consideration myself. I just tire of the rhetoric, being turned up so loud sometimes.

As I've said before; it sometimes appears...as with most things in the world today...that the voices at the extremes grow, and the moderates get squeezed from the middle. I'm not with the all-amps-sound-the-same-do-a-double-blind-test crowd; but sometimes I wonder if I'm with the my-world-class-speakers-sound-awful crowd much either. When my C1s sound a little less exciting than the day before, or week before...or month before; I assume the difference is me. My mood, my health (am I the only one with allergies?), etc.

In any case; I have to say I expected a bigger roasting...so at least thanks for practicing tolerance when it comes to me. ;) And no...I still wasn't shilling for my ET-3; and no you can't buy it...it's spoken for...lol. Sorry to break-up the party fellas. Carry on.

[CDLehner]

CD first let point out that you are very popular with me :hug:
What you are saying is correct but there are two factors to sound quality and they are circuit design and quality of execution (usually the quality of parts and fit and finish).
As someone who had the ET3 and later upgraded it to the ET3SE the difference is a major one :yes: and it all about parts quality from the connector to the capacitors and resistors inside the unit.
Another factor here is the level of execution on the casing of the preamp. The ET3 is built in a rather flimsy case which is prone to vibrations and resonances. I had to damp the case of my preamp considerably with Dynamat to avoid these vibrations which also effect the sound.
The Pr17 was part of CJ's premium line and as such is build to a very high standard. Just pick it up in your hands and you will understand what I mean.
With that said I do agree that the circuit design in the ET3 is much more modern and has many advantages in sound quality over previous designs. Its a great preamp and when executed with CJ best components reaches a level of performance that leaves anything in its price area behind.

Just my 2c :thumbsup:

Thanks for that btw. Very measured...unlike my diatribes, lol.

[jimtranr]

...there are two factors to sound quality and they are circuit design and quality of execution (usually the quality of parts and fit and finish).

Certainly borne out by my experience in upgrading the caps and resistors in a Sony SCD-777ES and the caps, coils, and cabling in the very simple Magnepan MG-1.6QR crossover. Assigning attribution percentages in this hobby is always shot-in-the-dark treacherous (:nono:), but in both instances the sonic improvements wrought following appropriate burn-in make hash of the 97%-3% equation. Obviously, neither example constitutes an ET3/ET3SE comparison (I'll leave that for others to scrap over), but each has demonstrated to my satisfaction that parts quality matters...and, depending on the application, can make a significant difference (in these instances, "improvement" rather than just "difference") in sonic performance.

[Joe Appierto]

First post is pstrisik might actually be interested in buying my ET-3; hmm...sure wish I'd seen this earlier, lol. Then...every single post, saying the 17LS is better; saying the 17LS is clearly better. I just didn't get it, and as I said...at worst it smacked of hypocrisy.



Hi CD,

Not quite every post. If you read through my rather short comments they only dealt with the 17LS and no comparison was made with either the ET3 or the ET3SE. Peter is possibly looking for a preamp to match with his Premeir 11A. I had the 17LS and 11A combination in my system for over a year and so I gave my 2¢. I thought, and still think, it was a very nice match-up.

I've never heard the ET3 or the ET3SE and therefore have no opinion on how either compare to the Premier 17LS or the 17LS2 (which I also haven't heard). It was just my opinion and not meant to be a comparison to any other preamp pairing with the 11A.

Regards,

[skroudo]

I had the ET3 then after a while I decide to upgrade to the ET3 SE after reading reviews, ho man, that was a great call :yes: the only thing I regrets is that I did not bought the SE from the beginning :(

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[ronenash]

I had the ET3 then after a while I decide to upgrade to the ET3 SE after reading reviews, ho man, that was a great call :yes: the only thing I regrets is that I did not bought the SE from the beginning :(

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

I also experienced the upgrade as a major one. Its really a new preamps altogether.

[CDLehner]

Guys, let me be clear; I wasn't trying to discount the effect of upgraded parts. I'm cut from the same clothe as you...though I try to take a measured and moderate approach, and sort through what's "real" and what's not; a thoroughly tough job, in this hobby, at times. So I like stout power-supplies, and sexy caps as much as the next guy.

And I'm not trying to sh*t on the SE, as it was always on my radar...to find out for myself, whether it was "$1500 better" or not; that is, before I had the sea-change to sell-off my separates and go a "simpler" route.

My point...and not to beat it into the ground...was more about the hypocrisy of what I felt I was reading. The comments, to me anyway...screamed of the ET-3 being at the bottom of this list; ET-3, 17LS...but then, with the premium parts...the ET-3SE jumped to the front of some lists.

To me, that must mean the circuit means very little. And it just seems to me...that if someone were to ask a question like "what's better...an ET-3 or a VTL 2.5"; I bet some of the same people would likely say "the ET-3 clearly has the superior circuit; it's a baby-GAT for christ sakes" (as I've seen similar comments, quite often).

Don't mind me; as I said...I didn't mean to come storming back in, and break up the party. It just rubbed me the wrong way, and maybe I tried to pull some of you to that moderate place I keep talking about. OTOH...no one made me the arbiter of restraint around here; and no one owes my any kind of apology either...that's for damn sure.

As I said; carry on!

[Bugs762]

Hi CD,

Not quite every post. If you read through my rather short comments they only dealt with the 17LS and no comparison was made with either the ET3 or the ET3SE. Peter is possibly looking for a preamp to match with his Premeir 11A. I had the 17LS and 11A combination in my system for over a year and so I gave my 2¢. I thought, and still think, it was a very nice match-up.

I've never heard the ET3 or the ET3SE and therefore have no opinion on how either compare to the Premier 17LS or the 17LS2 (which I also haven't heard). It was just my opinion and not meant to be a comparison to any other preamp pairing with the 11A.

Regards,

Dito, as I commented on the Premier 17ls MV 60SE combination. I'm sure they are both fine preamps (having not listened to an ET3).

[Briz Vegaas]

Baby GAT is marketing speak.for those folks that can't afford or don't want to spend GAT money.

Take everything an audiophile says with a pinch of salt.

Night and day, eats it for breakfast or sonic bliss are all just ways of saying " I'm really happy with the improvements" and "I didn't waste my hard earned on a 1% subjective improvement on what was already a perfectly good amp.

You could ask folks to wait 6 months and then comment on their gear but that would kill the forum. Being a serial upgraded I can comment from experience. Changes you could not live without 6 months ago become pretty modest after a while. They were worthwhile at the time and made me pull out lots of old records but 3 upgrades later they are put in true context.

There is little point getting annoyed about someone's subjective enthusiasm.

Here is and example. The Naim label download, Meet me in London. It's not a component but it is a sound quality thing. I have the CD rip of this one and it sounded ho hum, not really my thing. Lots of system upgrades and it sounded better, but then they re built, remixed, revitalised the recording for 24 192. It was the same raw materials but the recording was transformed, it was night and day different etc.

I listened to that recording yesterday and did the comparison to the CD. My mother could tell you which was best in a double blind test with ear plugs in, but the CD is actually still quite enjoyable.

Its all a bit of fun, no need to rain on someone's parade if they get too enthusiastic, it's all subjective and just a bit of fun to make life a little more interesting.

[pstrisik]

Wow!

Thanks for chiming in CD. I get your point about earlier raving about the ET-3 and now apparent lukewarm regard. It may not really be that way, but the overall feel of the thread can read that way. I reread also and only see two posts that clearly say the 17LS is better than the ET3. One is relaying opinion of CJ factory.

I may not have been totally clear in my OP. I am looking for the pre that has the more traditional, warmer presentation, not so much which is "better." Everything else being equal, the 17LS is more attractive as it would be in the same Premier family as my 11A.

It's moot for the moment though. I'm waiting for new LSA-1 monitors, having sold my big Salks. The Salks were too forward for me with the ribbon tweeter and ceramic midrange. For my hearing sensitivity, I am trying these two-way, silk dome tweeter, pulp mid-woofer monitors to see how that direction fairs (with subs). If better, I may look at some better quality monitors in this vein (Fritz Carbon 7 or even Sonus Faber). But I will need to see the change in sound character before making the pre-amp decision final.

.....Peter

[aldinohiend]

I have a fantastic Premier 17LS2 for sale. PM me if interested.

[Rommark]

I have a fantastic Premier 17LS2 for sale. PM me if interested.

If I'm not mistaken, you may have to be a "Subscriber" to receive PM. It will also allow you to sell/buy. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[joeinid]

If I'm not mistaken, you may have to be a "Subscriber" to receive PM. It will also allow you to sell/buy. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct :thumbsup:

[chessman]

I have a fantastic Premier 17LS2 for sale. PM me if interested.

Also, sales solicitations have to be in the classifieds and you have to be a subscriber to use them

[pstrisik]

I have a fantastic Premier 17LS2 for sale. PM me if interested.

Well, since I evidently can't do it here, you can PM me on AVSForums or AudioCircle - pstrisik is my username on both.

.........Peter

[medward0]

...

Another factor here is the level of execution on the casing of the preamp. The ET3 is built in a rather flimsy case which is prone to vibrations and resonances. I had to damp the case of my preamp considerably with Dynamat to avoid these vibrations which also effect the sound.

...



Any advice as to how much Dynamat to use and where to stick it (sic) inside the case?

After reading your post, I ordered a sheet of Dynamat for my ET3SE, but haven't installed it yet.

I haven't noticed any vibration noise from the Pre, but sometimes I don't notice a noise until its gone. Perhaps the Aurios Pro Max bearings under it help in that regard as well.

[ronenash]

Any advice as to how much Dynamat to use and where to stick it (sic) inside the case?

After reading your post, I ordered a sheet of Dynamat for my ET3SE, but haven't installed it yet.

I haven't noticed any vibration noise from the Pre, but sometimes I don't notice a noise until its gone. Perhaps the Aurios Pro Max bearings under it help in that regard as well.

The entire upper cover is constructed from a thin sheet of metal. I covered the entire cover with Dynamat leaving a 15mm clearance from the edges to avoid blocking the screw holes.
All you need is to tap the upper cover before and after the dynamat to notice the difference.
c-j install two thin sheets of some kind of damping material which does not do much. I removed these and installed the Dynamat instead.

Good luck.

[aldinohiend]

Well, since I evidently can't do it here, you can PM me on AVSForums or AudioCircle - pstrisik is my username on both.

.........Peter



Hi. I can not send you the answer. Please send me your email. thanks
Aldo

[chessman]

Hi. I can not send you the answer. Please send me your email. thanks
Aldo

Aldo, you have to be a subscriber to use private messaging on this board.

[aldinohiend]

Aldo, you have to be a subscriber to use private messaging on this board.

Forgive me, but I do not know how to do .......:confused-22:

[Joe Appierto]

Aldo, in order to use Private Messaging, you need to become a Subscriber which costs $25 for one year. If you are interested, you can go here to do so:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/payments.php

You might also want to read through the FAQ section for additional information regarding forum rules, procedures, etc.

AudioAficionado.org - FAQ: Board FAQ (http://www.audioaficionado.org/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_generalsiterules)

I hope it's okay for me to direct you to this stuff.

Respectfully,

[aldinohiend]

Thanks Joe for the exquisite courtesy.
Spend 25 USD only send private messages I do not believe that it is appropriate, given the current economic situation.
All the best.

Aldo

[medward0]

The entire upper cover is constructed from a thin sheet of metal. I covered the entire cover with Dynamat leaving a 15mm clearance from the edges to avoid blocking the screw holes.
All you need is to tap the upper cover before and after the dynamat to notice the difference.
c-j install two thin sheets of some kind of damping material which does not do much. I removed these and installed the Dynamat instead.

Good luck.

Thanks, ronenash!

[pstrisik]

@ Aldo, if you are around....

If you still have the LS2, I may still be interested. Don't let the limitations of this board stop you. You can contact me by PM at avsforum.com or audiocircle.com or conradjohnsonowners.com. My username on all three is pstrisik. Or just reply here with your email address and I will contact you.

........Peter