To Teflon or not to teflon

[rlw3]

thinking of t boning my new pr 12s with the teflon caps and go thru the expense and miserable break in period. Has anyone does this to an older cj amp. am worried it will bve richer/slower or ruin the magic. thanks to all ray

[Myles B. Astor]

thinking of t boning my new pr 12s with the teflon caps and go thru the expense and miserable break in period. Has anyone does this to an older cj amp. am worried it will bve richer/slower or ruin the magic. thanks to all ray



None of the above but you need a minimum of 300 hrs on the amps to make a judgement.

[rlw3]

thank you

[Face]

am worried it will bve richer/slower
Teflon caps are generally the opposite.

Check out Vcap CuTF caps.

[ronenash]

It will definitely improve the amps considerably. More detail, more transparency, larger stage and better focus. It will not bring the Pr12 to the level of current cj offerings. In their current amps they use better resistors and better power supply design as well.
With that said a Pr12 with Teflon caps and KT120 output tubes will sound exquisite.

[Myles B. Astor]

Teflon caps are generally the opposite.

Check out Vcap CuTF caps.

I might be wrong (sure Lew will correct me otherwise) but I think that VCap makes cj's Teflon caps. Not a cheap date.

[rlw3]

what is the sonic difference between 6550's and kt 120s??

[petertg]

I'm real glad I did the teflon upgrade on my Pr11a. Whether its a good deal for you or not depends on your goal. If you like the sound of your amp and plan on keeping it for a while, then the upgrade is well worth it. It manages to maintain the basic sound signature of the Premier line while increasing the speed, transparency and clarity by a noticeable margin. I think it will bring your Pr12 pretty close to the newer LP models.

[Joe Appierto]

what is the sonic difference between 6550's and kt 120s??

Naturally, that’s going to some degree depend on the amplifier you’re using and the associated system. Your unmodified Premier 12s, I’m guessing, fall somewhere between bi-amped 11As and the Premier 140, maybe.

There are two main schools of thought here in this forum. And please guys, if I’m misstating anyone’s feelings, please jump in because I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth.

The majority view is that the KT120s combine the best characteristics of the 6550 with the KT88. They may not be more powerful when used in a circuit not designed for them, but they seem to be a little more dynamic and have better headroom. They present a strong bass line without bloat and are articulate in that presentation. Mids and treble are smooth without being rich or warm.

The minority view (caveat: I’m one of this group’s members) is that the KT120 is an excellent sounding output tube. However, when compared to a good 6550 (e.g., SED =C= 6550C or a Tung-Sol reissue 6550), the KT120s lack a little top-to-bottom coherence, may be a little bit on the rich side of neutral and don’t have the same degree of clarity in the upper midrange and lower treble.

I’ve listened to the KT120 in both an unmodified 11A and a 140. I’ve yet to listen to them in the 140 now that it’s had the Teflon caps put in.

[Myles B. Astor]

Naturally, that’s going to some degree depend on the amplifier you’re using and the associated system. Your unmodified Premier 12s, I’m guessing, fall somewhere between bi-amped 11As and the Premier 140, maybe.

There are two main schools of thought here in this forum. And please guys, if I’m misstating anyone’s feelings, please jump in because I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth.

The majority view is that the KT120s combine the best characteristics of the 6550 with the KT88. They may not be more powerful when used in a circuit not designed for them, but they seem to be a little more dynamic and have better headroom. They present a strong bass line without bloat and are articulate in that presentation. Mids and treble are smooth without being rich or warm.

The minority view (caveat: I’m one of this group’s members) is that the KT120 is an excellent sounding output tube. However, when compared to a good 6550 (e.g., SED =C= 6550C or a Tung-Sol reissue 6550), the KT120s lack a little top-to-bottom coherence, may be a little bit on the rich side of neutral and don’t have the same degree of clarity in the upper midrange and lower treble.

I’ve listened to the KT120 in both an unmodified 11A and a 140. I’ve yet to listen to them in the 140 now that it’s had the Teflon caps put in.

That's not what I find with the ART; perhaps the tubes are revealing issues elsewhere in the system? (One thing is that you don't realize the ultimate in transparency with the cj gear unless everything in the chain uses teflon caps.) These tubes, when you really get your AC power line issues together, are stunningly transparent and neutral. The SEDs are way more colored and muddy.

[Puma Cat]

I might be wrong (sure Lew will correct me otherwise) but I think that VCap makes cj's Teflon caps. Not a cheap date.

My understanding was that C-J's Teflon caps were made by Dan Babineau, founder of Running Springs...

[Puma Cat]

Naturally, that’s going to some degree depend on the amplifier you’re using and the associated system. Your unmodified Premier 12s, I’m guessing, fall somewhere between bi-amped 11As and the Premier 140, maybe.

There are two main schools of thought here in this forum. And please guys, if I’m misstating anyone’s feelings, please jump in because I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth.

Okay, I will keep that in mind! ;)


The majority view is that the KT120s combine the best characteristics of the 6550 with the KT88. They may not be more powerful when used in a circuit not designed for them, but they seem to be a little more dynamic and have better headroom. They present a strong bass line without bloat and are articulate in that presentation. Mids and treble are smooth without being rich or warm.

I completely agree with this and would add that the presentation from top to bottom is superior, but I do think that KT120s are more musical (sweeter?) than you describe here; in essence, they combine the best characteristics of the 6550 and KT88.


The minority view (caveat: I’m one of this group’s members) is that the KT120 is an excellent sounding output tube. However, when compared to a good 6550 (e.g., SED =C= 6550C or a Tung-Sol reissue 6550), the KT120s lack a little top-to-bottom coherence, may be a little bit on the rich side of neutral and don’t have the same degree of clarity in the upper midrange and lower treble.

For the most part, I disagree with some exceptions. In my experience the top to bottom coherence of the KT-120 is superior and there is no difference in upper midrange/lower treble clarity or air. The bass performance is markedly better. I do agree as mentioned above that the 120s are a more musical tube, which is fine with me because I found 6550s to be in general a bit too cool for my taste (this is based on Winged C 6550s, not Tung Sols, bear in mind). Overall, I find the KT-120 to be superior in pretty much all respects to 6550s and I ain't goin' back! :D So, I'm with Myles on this one....

Bear in mind that I firmly believe that a tube's performance is highly dependent on the circuit topology it is going into, and my views are based on KT-120s in an LP70S.

[turntable]

My understanding was that C-J's Teflon caps were made by Dan Babineau, founder of Running Springs...

Unless my memory is failing, Lew told me Vcap make them to cj specs when I was debating whether to do my prem 8a.

[Joe Appierto]

Myles & Steve,

I'll have to respectfully request that we agree to disagree. At least until I try them again now that the 140 has been modified. :)

[Joe Appierto]

rlw3,

I have to agree with the previous posters. The CJD Teflon cap modification has resulted in my Pr 140 sounding clearer, dynamic, more neutral and for lack of a better way of putting it, more dramatic. I also haven't found it to be particularly painful. It sounded better straight out of the box and while some days are better than others, there's always been a significant improvement over how it sounded previously. I'm now at the 400 hour mark and if anything, it's never sounded this good.

[Face]

Vcap does produce caps for a few other manufacturers.

[ronenash]

I might be wrong (sure Lew will correct me otherwise) but I think that VCap makes cj's Teflon caps. Not a cheap date.

I don't think Lew is disclosing this information.

[ronenash]

what is the sonic difference between 6550's and kt 120s??

Depends on which 6550. Compared to the =C= 6550C which CJ used previously the KT120 has better bass, a larger soundstage and is more extended at the extremes. The difference is not night and day but clearly noticeable.

[ronenash]

rlw3,

I have to agree with the previous posters. The CJD Teflon cap modification has resulted in my Pr 140 sounding clearer, dynamic, more neutral and for lack of a better way of putting it, more dramatic. I also haven't found it to be particularly painful. It sounded better straight out of the box and while some days are better than others, there's always been a significant improvement over how it sounded previously. I'm now at the 400 hour mark and if anything, it's never sounded this good.

Joe, It will sound even better with another 300 hours on the clock...

[Joe Appierto]

Joe, It will sound even better with another 300 hours on the clock...

Good things are worth waiting for. I keep wondering though if it sounds like this now...

['cisco]

Rookie question :D

Suppose you have your CJ or any other equipment for that matter.... all broken-in (in my case the CA200) and you rotate your equipment around every few months or so...does it have to be broken-in again after a 3-4 month hiatus?

[ronenash]

Rookie question :D

Suppose you have your CJ or any other equipment for for that matter.... all broken-in (in my case the CA200) and you rotate your equipment around every few months or so...does it have to be broken-in again after a 3-4 month hiatus?

in such cases usually 50 to 100 hours of break in is enough.

['cisco]

in such cases usually 50 to 100 hours of break in is enough.

Thanks ronenash......no wonder my Mc sounded so lifeless last night after the rotation.

[Puma Cat]

Yes, I've found this to be case as well....gear not in use for a time needs some re-running in, but generally a few weeks is sufficient.

Hmm...I better put the Premier 17 and LP70S back into the system! ;-)

[ronenash]

I rotate power amp once or twice a week and do not find this a problem. Its only when you are not using your gear for a few weeks that you will need reburning it.

I would expect that if its store for a year or so you will need a considerably longer burn in.

[rlw3]

In addition to gear breaking in again , the dialectric surrounding interconnects and speaker wires on some brands does not liked to be moved and will want to settle in

[Puma Cat]

In addition to gear breaking in again , the dialectric surrounding interconnects and speaker wires on some brands does not liked to be moved and will want to settle in

That's also correct.

[aldinohiend]

Myles & Steve,

I'll have to respectfully request that we agree to disagree. At least until I try them again now that the 140 has been modified. :)

But what are the Premier 140 capacitors that are replaced with Teflon?

[Joe Appierto]

But what are the Premier 140 capacitors that are replaced with Teflon?

Quite honestly I don't know. I was never one for taking something apart and then being able to put it back together correctly. So, I never popped the hood to look either before or after the C1 modification. I do know that the Premier 140 sounded immediately better after the modification and it did indeed improve further as the caps formed/burned-in.

Sorry to not be any help as to exactly which caps were replaced.

[stereoquest]

Hi,

The Teflon upgrade will mostly consist of exchanging all the following :

coupling caps 8 x 0.15 uf x 600v
the 2 number 0.15 bypass capacitor in the input ---these do not nec need to be there if you replace the 1uf poly with teflon

the 0.15 bypass caps in the power supply.
For the most part all 0.15 600v polystyrene will be replaced with Teflon.

If you are struggling to read the schematic best to stay away from the board.

Almost all the c1 upgrades follow this basic pattern ----there can be transistor changes to the power supply as well . On the premier 140 I count min 14 caps for changing --do the maths using v cap cutf 0.15 600v as a guide.

Hope the above helps --its just a guide so don't shoot me down if I missed a couple !

[stereoquest]

Hi,

The Teflon upgrade will basicaly consist of exchanging the following :
coupling caps 8 x 0.15 uf x 600v
the 2 number 0.15 bypass capacitor in the input ---these do not nec need to be there if you replace the 1uf poly with Teflon

the 0.15 bypass caps in the power supply.
For the most part all 0.15 600v polystyrene will be replaced with Teflon.

If you are struggling to read the schematic best to stay away from the board.

Almost all the c1 upgrades follow this basic pattern ----there can be transistor changes to the power supply as well . On the premier 140 I count min 14 caps for changing --do the maths using v cap cutf 0.15 600v as a guide.

Hope the above helps --its just guide don't shoot me down if I missed a couple .

[aldinohiend]

Hi,

The Teflon upgrade will mostly consist of exchanging all the following :

coupling caps 8 x 0.15 uf x 600v
the 2 number 0.15 bypass capacitor in the input ---these do not nec need to be there if you replace the 1uf poly with teflon

the 0.15 bypass caps in the power supply.
For the most part all 0.15 600v polystyrene will be replaced with Teflon.

If you are struggling to read the schematic best to stay away from the board.

Almost all the c1 upgrades follow this basic pattern ----there can be transistor changes to the power supply as well . On the premier 140 I count min 14 caps for changing --do the maths using v cap cutf 0.15 600v as a guide.

Hope the above helps --its just a guide so don't shoot me down if I missed a couple !

Thanks!!!