Finally traded my ET3 for ET3SE

[ronenash]

I finally traded my loner ET3 for the ET3SE that arrived this week. With 48 hours of break in the SE sound has more resolution and clarity but still lack the sound stage depth and coherence I had with the fully brocken in ET3.
With what I hear now I am sure it will be a killer preamp once fully brocken in.

Will keep you update.

[joeinid]

Congratulations on the new preamp. At least breaking it it will not be as much trouble as breaking in an amp. Enjoy!

[rthomeint]

I finally traded my loner ET3 for the ET3SE that arrived this week. With 48 hours of break in the SE sound has more resolution and clarity but still lack the sound stage depth and coherence I had with the fully brocken in ET3.
With what I hear now I am sure it will be a killer preamp once fully brocken in.

Will keep you update.


Congrats and enjoy. I hope the long brake in process is painless as possible.

[Puma Cat]

Congrats, Ron! Keep us posted on how it develops as it breaks in. Your experience is tracking mine with the CT-5.

[turntable]

Well done, congrats Now to look forward to lots of break in :-)

[Puma Cat]

LOL! Yeah, no kidding....<drums fingers>

[ronenash]

Thanks guys. I will give it 300-400 hours before I swap the stock EH 6922 for the Matshishita 7DJ8. From my experience with the LP125mSE things start to stabilize at ~400 hours and continue to improve until about a 1000 hours.
Might be sooner with the ET3SE as it uses teflons for bypass only and not as coupling caps.

[Ritmo]

Congratulations on your new SE!

Mike

[audiomaniac]

An exciting weekend ahead, I'm sure. Congrats! I look forward to your comments.


John

[Bugs762]

Fantastic!

[skroudo]

I finally traded my loner ET3 for the ET3SE that arrived this week. With 48 hours of break in the SE sound has more resolution and clarity but still lack the sound stage depth and coherence I had with the fully brocken in ET3.
With what I hear now I am sure it will be a killer preamp once fully brocken in.

Will keep you update.

Congrats on your new ET3 SE.

I'm looking forward for your experience with the SE, I'm looking into upgrade/trade my ET3 to the SE, for now CJ asking for $2100 to upgrade my ET3 :( any tips will be appreciate :)

[ronenash]

Congrats on your new ET3 SE.

I'm looking forward for your experience with the SE, I'm looking into upgrade/trade my ET3 to the SE, for now CJ asking for $2100 to upgrade my ET3 :( any tips will be appreciate :)

So far there is a big improvement in clarity, detail and high frequency air. At this point its not consistent since the caps are still breaking in. Soundstage depth is not as good as with the non SE version right out of the box but continues to improve with break in. I will update in a 10 days after I get some hours on it.

[skroudo]

So far there is a big improvement in clarity, detail and high frequency air. At this point its not consistent since the caps are still breaking in. Soundstage depth is not as good as with the non SE version right out of the box but continues to improve with break in. I will update in a 10 days after I get some hours on it.

Thank you, it will be a useful information.

[Jerome W]

Mazal Tov Ron !

[Rafale]

So far there is a big improvement in clarity, detail and high frequency air. At this point its not consistent since the caps are still breaking in. Soundstage depth is not as good as with the non SE version right out of the box but continues to improve with break in. I will update in a 10 days after I get some hours on it.

Bravo and Congrats Ron.....It is as a bottle of great wine, need of aeration before giving its full potential:yes:

[CDLehner]

I had a tough decision when I bought a used ET-2, for just shy of what a new ET-3 would have run me. Since I couldn't put them head-to-head, I tried to get a lot of opinions about how they stacked up...and the impression I walked away with was that it was practically a coin-flip between the two.

In the end, I decided a new ET-3 would be there for the taking for some time to come; an ET-2, in good shape and at a fair price...not so much. I'm happy with my choice...but think of the ET-3SE as the next logical step, were I to continue to move up the C-J ladder.

So I'll be curious about any comparisons and feedback, between ET-2, ET-3, and the SE. Congrats Ron!

[Puma Cat]

I don't know anything about the 8080 tube that it is in the ET-2, but the ET3/ET3 SE shares the sweet and musical 6922 tube that is used in the ART/Pr16/Pr17 and ET-5 and GAT. I would also think the Teflon caps in the SE would give the ET3 a slightly more neutral sound than the ET-2, but that's a guess. The ET-2 like the CT-5 is a lot prettier.

[CDLehner]

I don't know anything about the 8080 tube that it is in the ET-2, but the ET3/ET3 SE shares the sweet and musical 6922 tube that is used in the ART/Pr16/Pr17 and ET-5 and GAT. I would also think the Teflon caps in the SE would give the ET3 a slightly more neutral sound than the ET-2, but that's a guess. The ET-2 like the CT-5 is a lot prettier.

Yeah; the 8080 is a "mysterious" tube.

[Puma Cat]

Yeah, it's one one of the few that I have yet to hear...

[ronenash]

I don't know anything about the 8080 tube that it is in the ET-2, but the ET3/ET3 SE shares the sweet and musical 6922 tube that is used in the ART/Pr16/Pr17 and ET-5 and GAT. I would also think the Teflon caps in the SE would give the ET3 a slightly more neutral sound than the ET-2, but that's a guess. The ET-2 like the CT-5 is a lot prettier.

The 8080 is a single triod tube as opposed to the 6922 which is a dual triod. It has very similar characteristics to the 6922. You need to use one per channel whereas with the 6922 you use one for both channels.
The best 8080 tube was the Mullard. I managed to get two of those from CJ to use in my LP125m. They were old PV14 tubes. The original Mulard 8080 is very hard to find these days.

[Puma Cat]

The 8080 is a single triod tube as opposed to the 6922 which is a dual triod. It has very similar characteristics to the 6922. You need to use one per channel whereas with the 6922 you use one for both channels.


Unless you have a Premier 17, which uses 4 per channel! ;)

Thanks, Ron!

[Rafale]

https://www.tubeworld.com/6c4.htm

to my knowledge ET2 comes with NOS Mullard
M 8080 equivalent 6C4/EC90/CV4058/6100

[ronenash]

Maybe when it was new. Today these tubes are no longer available from CJ. You can find them through other sources on the web but I do not know how reliable they are. If you order from CJ you will get a Phillips 6C4.

[ronenash]

Unless you have a Premier 17, which uses 4 per channel! ;)

Thanks, Ron!

Still better than the 10 per channel in the ART :D

[CDLehner]

Maybe when it was new. Today these tubes are no longer available from CJ. You can find them through other sources on the web but I do not know how reliable they are. If you order from CJ you will get a Phillips 6C4.

Ronenash, as best I can tell...this (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=201) is the "de-facto" replacement for the Mullard M8080? WV also lists these other "6C4s"

Watford Valves :: Product - 6C4/EC90/GENERAL ELECTRIC (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=3068)
Watford Valves :: Product - 6C45PI/SOVTEK (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1252)
Watford Valves :: Product - 6C4WC/JAN PHILIPS (http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=204)

Any thoughts on whether they'd also work in place of M8080s...on my ET-2, for instance?

[ronenash]

The 6C4 is the american version of the british 8080. There is no problem using it as a replacement to the 8080. CJ currently use the 6C4 as the 8080 are no longer available.

[CDLehner]

The 6C4 is the american version of the british 8080. There is no problem using it as a replacement to the 8080. CJ currently use the 6C4 as the 8080 are no longer available.

So all of the above should work? The Sovtek 6C45 was the one I wasn't quite sure about. Thanks.

[dtb300]

I'm looking forward for your experience with the SE, I'm looking into upgrade/trade my ET3 to the SE, for now CJ asking for $2100 to upgrade my ET3 :( any tips will be appreciate :)
Wow 2100 to add SE....

So glad I bought the ET3SE for the additional 1500 over the ET3.

Took about two weeks of playing the Pre for 10-12 hours a day. I just enjoyed music during this time not worrying about the sound.

The Mat 7DJ8 and the EAT 6922 are my two favorite tubes so far.

[ronenash]

So all of the above should work? The Sovtek 6C45 was the one I wasn't quite sure about. Thanks.

Not sure about the Sovtek but all 8080 and 6c4 are 7pin tubes as opposed to the 6922/6dj8 series which are 9 pin tubes

[ronenash]

Wow 2100 to add SE....

So glad I bought the ET3SE for the additional 1500 over the ET3.

Took about two weeks of playing the Pre for 10-12 hours a day. I just enjoyed music during this time not worrying about the sound.

The Mat 7DJ8 and the EAT 6922 are my two favorite tubes so far.

Good to know you like the Mat 7dj8. I bought two of those to have just in case I really like them and they are no longer available. The EAT is a major investment which I will leave for some time to come.

I will wait for this weekend to replace the EH for the Mat. The preamp should have 150 hours on the burn in meter by then.

[skroudo]

Wow 2100 to add SE....

So glad I bought the ET3SE for the additional 1500 over the ET3.

Took about two weeks of playing the Pre for 10-12 hours a day. I just enjoyed music during this time not worrying about the sound.

The Mat 7DJ8 and the EAT 6922 are my two favorite tubes so far.

Life is a very expensive school!! :(

[ronenash]

This morning I replaced the stock EH6922 with the Matsushita 7DJ8. Even right out of the box I instantly noticed more high frequency air and midrange definition. The noise level are also greatly reduced. The ET3SE continues to work around the clock with about 170 hours on it now. I will give the tube a day or two to break in and will post back but this tube really sounds like a winner.

[Joe Appierto]

This morning I replaced the stock EH6922 with the Matsushita 7DJ8. Even right out of the box I instantly noticed more high frequency air and midrange definition. The noise level are also greatly reduced. The ET3SE continues to work around the clock with about 170 hours on it now. I will give the tube a day or two to break in and will post back but this tube really sounds like a winner.

Hi,

Just curious, but when you write "The noise level are greatly reduced." do you mean that there's less tube rush, or, that the music seems to be coming out of a blacker background and you hear more detail, as a result?

Thanks and I'm looking forward to your further thoughts as the tubes settle in.

[ronenash]

Hi,

Just curious, but when you write "The noise level are greatly reduced." do you mean that there's less tube rush, or, that the music seems to be coming out of a blacker background and you hear more detail, as a result?

Thanks and I'm looking forward to your further thoughts as the tubes settle in.

I guess its both. Less tube rush definitely but I also seem to hear more detail. I really had a short listen with the tube completely new so its hard to tell. I do more critical listening tomorrow.

[Joe Appierto]

I guess its both. Less tube rush definitely but I also seem to hear more detail. I really had a short listen with the tube completely new so its hard to tell. I do more critical listening tomorrow.

Thank you for the response. I don't know if it's just my tired old ears, or my 16LS2 isn't as transparent as the more modern c-j preamps, or my speakers aren't very efficient but even with my ear right against the speaker, I can't hear any tube rush. And that's with a good variety of small signal tubes.

Maybe I need to really crank it up to tell but at the volume levels I listen to (which I top out at 45 in deference to my upstairs neighbors), there's only silence when I listen with no program material playing.

Thanks again, I realize you've just started to break them in.

[dtb300]

I guess its both. Less tube rush definitely but I also seem to hear more detail. I really had a short listen with the tube completely new so its hard to tell. I do more critical listening tomorrow.
The EH in mine got very noisy about a month in.

So far the two best tubes for me, in my rig and my room, is the Mat 7DJ8 (poor man's EAT) and the EAT 6922 (superb tube).

[ronenash]

With 250 hours of break in the ET3SE is turning out to be a great preamp. With the stock tube and in comparison to the ET3 none SE version, the SE version has greater detail, clearer highs and tighter lows while retaining the expansive soundstage of the ET3. Overall a very good upgrade to an already stunning preamp.

I ordered to Matsushita 7DJ8 tubes from Upscale. The first was plugged in 4 days ago and developed a crackling noise problem in one of the channel after 2 days. The second one is working OK at this point. I hope there will be no further problem with this second tube. I contacted Upscale to get a replacement for the first tube. Have not heard from them yet but its the weekend so I will wait for next week. I have heard their service is very good so I do not expect problems.

As for the Mat 7DJ8 sound, in a word WOW! This is one great tube. The mids are so rich, vocalists just seem to project into my listening room with unbelievable presence. Noise floor is also better than the stock EH tube with a blacker background. The highs are crystal clear as well. I am very happy with this tube. I hope the second one does not develop any problems.

[trumpetplayer]

This morning I replaced the stock EH6922 with the Matsushita 7DJ8. Even right out of the box I instantly noticed more high frequency air and midrange definition. The noise level are also greatly reduced. The ET3SE continues to work around the clock with about 170 hours on it now. I will give the tube a day or two to break in and will post back but this tube really sounds like a winner.

I tried that Matsushita in my ET3, it offered a lot more detail but overall i thought it was much to bright. I actually like the EH better.

[CDLehner]

I tried that Matsushita in my ET3, it offered a lot more detail but overall i thought it was much to bright. I actually like the EH better.

Ah...ET-3 tube talk. I haven't even burned my new ET-3 in yet, and I can't wait to start screwing with the tube. :D

[joeinid]

I tried that Matsushita in my ET3, it offered a lot more detail but overall i thought it was much to bright. I actually like the EH better.

Hi trumpetplayer,

Welcome to AA!!! You have great taste in gear :thumbsup:

:welcome2.::pg2:

[trumpetplayer]

Hi trumpetplayer,

Welcome to AA!!! You have great taste in gear :thumbsup:

:welcome2.::pg2:

Thanks, so do you guys!:thumbsup:

[jwhite613]

trumpetplayer... Welcome To AA!!!


:welcome2.:

[Myles B. Astor]

This morning I replaced the stock EH6922 with the Matsushita 7DJ8. Even right out of the box I instantly noticed more high frequency air and midrange definition. The noise level are also greatly reduced. The ET3SE continues to work around the clock with about 170 hours on it now. I will give the tube a day or two to break in and will post back but this tube really sounds like a winner.

Why not the Tele 7DJ8?

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[Myles B. Astor]

The EH in mine got very noisy about a month in.

So far the two best tubes for me, in my rig and my room, is the Mat 7DJ8 (poor man's EAT) and the EAT 6922 (superb tube).

I think cj found an issue with a recent batch of 6922s going noisy prematurely. You might want to check with Ed. Mine have been fine since got the unit though wonder about my backup pair ;)

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[skroudo]

I think cj found an issue with a recent batch of 6922s going noisy prematurely. You might want to check with Ed. Mine have been fine since got the unit though wonder about my backup pair ;)

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

I agree, I got a noisy 6922 tube in my ET3 after five weeks, I replace it with the Mat 7DJ8 and I'm a happy camper since then :)

[ronenash]

I tried that Matsushita in my ET3, it offered a lot more detail but overall i thought it was much to bright. I actually like the EH better.

In my setup the matsushita does not sound bright at all. Extended, yes but not bright. I guess its a matter of personal taste.

[ronenash]

Why not the Tele 7DJ8?

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

Myles, I am going to try the tele as well. Kevin from Upscale thinks very highly of the mat so I started with it.

[CDLehner]

So...if I crack my ET-3 open , what should I expect to find in the socket; an EH6922?

[Rayooo]

So...if I crack my ET-3 open , what should I expect to find in the socket; an EH6922?

unless CJ have changed ...that's what was in my ET3 and ET5 as stock.

[ronenash]

So...if I crack my ET-3 open , what should I expect to find in the socket; an EH6922?

I know they were looking for alternatives because of the noise problem they had with the eh6922. Not sure what they are using today. If also depends on when your unit was manufactured.

[Myles B. Astor]

I know they were looking for alternatives because of the noise problem they had with the eh6922. Not sure what they are using today. If also depends on when your unit was manufactured.

Problem is 7dj8 isn't an exact drop in for a 6922. Wish I still had the letter from Allen Wright explaining why. It was up on the PFO site a while back.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[ronenash]

The 7DJ8 is designed for a fillament voltage of 7 volts as opposed to the 6.3 volts of the 6922/6DJ8. Working the 7DJ8 at a slightly lower voltage should work to lenghten tube life. All I can say is that the Matsishita 7DJ8 works great in my ET3.

[Coppy]

Problem is 7dj8 isn't an exact drop in for a 6922. Wish I still had the letter from Allen Wright explaining why. It was up on the PFO site a while back.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

Myles,

Do you have the 7DG8 in your GAT? How are they doing and what mfg made them? NOS or new?

Thanks,
Bob

[Myles B. Astor]

Problem is 7dj8 isn't an exact drop in for a 6922. Wish I still had the letter from Allen Wright explaining why. It was up on the PFO site a while back.

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

OK found the note from Allen that was published:

In your wonderful article on the Tape Project, you make one commonly held mistake about tube substitution.

You try 7DJ8 tubes in your preamp and give them the thumbs down. This is to be completely expected. What car do you drive? If something with a hint of performance, would you seek out some 1940's war time 85 octane gas for it - and expect it to perform like it does using the 98 octane it's designed for?

Using a 7DJ8 in a preamp designed for 6DJ8s is a similar situation—although they won't damage it—whereas 85 octane in a modern high performance engine could create a disaster.

The 7DJ8 tube needs 7.3 volts on the heaters (that's what the "7" stands for) so running them at the normal 6.3V means they are nowhere near their correct operating temperature—hence they cannot work as expected.

They will work, and it's possible even work quite well, but nowhere near as well as if run at their correct voltage. Yet people all over just swap them in and out. The 7DJ8 was intended for 300mA series heater chains, and when used that way are superb, our RTP3D preamp used them for years.

Regards,

Allen Wright

Vacuum State Electronics

[Myles B. Astor]

Myles,

Do you have the 7DG8 in your GAT? How are they doing and what mfg made them? NOS or new?

Thanks,
Bob

No, I don't for several reasons :) One is that I'm tired of NOS, their prices (few are really NOS anymore, anyway) and want to find a tube that is currently produced that sounds good! Many of these tubes may sound good harmonically but really lack dynamics and balls. Even though these tubes were supposedly rated say for 10,000 hours, was that 10,000 that the filament will light up for or is it 10,000 that it will sound good. I think the number of hours the tubes actually sound good is far, far less than 10,000 :(

Two, I was heeding Allen's advice though a good friend swear by the Tele 7DJ8s in the driver stage of his LP275M amps.

Third, had picked up a pair of Tele ECC188cc/7308s to try but like everything it seems lately, haven't gotten around to trying them :(

Fourth, I find many of these NOS (and this makes one wonder too if they're really NOs) tubes noisy, esp. when you need them in a phono stage :( Haven't found one that works in the two critical positions of the cj TEA1bc and find even the third tube is also sensitive.

Bottom line: am using the cj supplied 6922 EH.

[Joe Appierto]

Allen Wright is a highly respected designer and I’m sure what little he’s forgotten is more than I’ll ever know about the technical side of audio.

All I can base my comments on are my experiences with 7DJ8’s in my Premier 16LS2 and as the input tube in the Premier 140, but primarily with the former. I’ve used NOS Lorenz, Telefunken and Mullard 7DJ8’s and have been really happy with how they sound and perform.

In the one case where I have corresponding 6DJ8’s, Telefunken’s from 1968 (the same year as the TFK 7DJ8’s), I wouldn’t be able to tell them apart if I didn’t know what was in the preamp. They sound the same to me.

I’ve read different views on the longevity of 7DJ8’s used in applications designed for 6922’s. One school of thought is that since they’re running at almost 14% under their rated heater voltage, they should last longer and the other school says just the opposite for the very same reason. I guess time will tell.

Bottom line is that so far, they’ve worked really well for me in my application.

[Myles B. Astor]

Allen Wright is a highly respected designer and I&rsquo;m sure what little he&rsquo;s forgotten is more than I&rsquo;ll ever know about the technical side of audio.

All I can base my comments on are my experiences with 7DJ8&rsquo;s in my Premier 16LS2 and as the input tube in the Premier 140, but primarily with the former. I&rsquo;ve used NOS Lorenz, Telefunken and Mullard 7DJ8&rsquo;s and have been really happy with how they sound and perform.

In the one case where I have corresponding 6DJ8&rsquo;s, Telefunken&rsquo;s from 1968 (the same year as the TFK 7DJ8&rsquo;s), I wouldn&rsquo;t be able to tell them apart if I didn&rsquo;t know what was in the preamp. They sound the same to me.

I&rsquo;ve read different views on the longevity of 7DJ8&rsquo;s used in applications designed for 6922&rsquo;s. One school of thought is that since they&rsquo;re running at almost 14% under their rated heater voltage, they should last longer and the other school says just the opposite for the very same reason. I guess time will tell.

Bottom line is that so far, they&rsquo;ve worked really well for me in my application.

Agreed. There is a paradox here :)

Best is to listen. All I know is tries them in place of a 6922 in a BH Repro and it didn't work. IIIRC, Dan as it turned out actually used a trick and was running the 6922 at a lower rating. That's probably why didn't work for me!

Sent from my iPad using A.Aficionado

[turntable]

No, I don't for several reasons :) One is that I'm tired of NOS, their prices (few are really NOS anymore, anyway) and want to find a tube that is currently produced that sounds good! Many of these tubes may sound good harmonically but really lack dynamics and balls. Even though these tubes were supposedly rated say for 10,000 hours, was that 10,000 that the filament will light up for or is it 10,000 that it will sound good. I think the number of hours the tubes actually sound good is far, far less than 10,000 :(

Two, I was heeding Allen's advice though a good friend swear by the Tele 7DJ8s in the driver stage of his LP275M amps.

Third, had picked up a pair of Tele ECC188cc/7308s to try but like everything it seems lately, haven't gotten around to trying them :(

Fourth, I find many of these NOS (and this makes one wonder too if they're really NOs) tubes noisy, esp. when you need them in a phono stage :( Haven't found one that works in the two critical positions of the cj TEA1bc and find even the third tube is also sensitive.

Bottom line: am using the cj supplied 6922 EH.

Hi Myles

I bought a couple of Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8 from Upscale. I find them a lot better than the stk eh6922's

Cheers

[Myles B. Astor]

Hi Myles

I bought a couple of Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8 from Upscale. I find them a lot better than the stk eh6922's

Cheers

Well have 8 or 10 of them around. Guess I should try them someday! :)

[Joe Appierto]

Well have 8 or 10 of them around. Guess I should try them someday! :)

As they used to say in the old Alka-Seltzer ad: "Try it, you'll like it." :)

You might be pleasantly surprised with how good the TFK 7DJ8's sound.

[CDLehner]

I know it's not as sexy as some NOS options...but does anyone have any feedback on the re-issue Gold Lion E88CC/6922?

[ronenash]

The GL 6922 worked great for me in my lp125 and the et3. For some reason it became noisy in my et3 after a few month but when it worked it was very good. Slightly warm and very detailed.
Out of the current production tubes I have tried it was the best. Mind you I did not try the super expensive EAT.

[ronenash]

Hi Myles

I bought a couple of Telefunken PCC88/7DJ8 from Upscale. I find them a lot better than the stk eh6922's

Cheers

+1 for the 7dj8

[Puma Cat]

I know it's not as sexy as some NOS options...but does anyone have any feedback on the re-issue Gold Lion E88CC/6922?

I use two of 'em in my Pr17 in a mix 'n match configuration with Amperex 7308s NOS orange labels.

I like 'em a lot.

[Coppy]

Well have 8 or 10 of them around. Guess I should try them someday! :)

And, we could add... our friend Philippe is using the EATs in his GAT and swears by them. Their expensive at about $200 each but maybe not so much more than the fancy NOS tubes. Some say they aren't even made by EAT but are another mfg. repainted and fancied up with the fin gizmo.
Every time I start down the NOS road something ends up noisy or not sounding too great so I put a couple of the EHs, which I've actually checked out by listening to them, back in and they sound better. The NOS tubes seem better at first as they are less dynamic and give the impression of nicer quality until I put the EHs back in and hear all I've been missing. Not sure what we're trying to do with the tube swapping but it reminds a bit of cable swapping without the pleasure of looking at those pretty new wires that make you feel okay about all that $$$ expense. Sorry if I annoyed you upgrade folks with this comment.

Back to the music... :yes:
Bob

[ronenash]

And, we could add... our friend Philippe is using the EATs in his GAT and swears by them. Their expensive at about $200 each but maybe not so much more than the fancy NOS tubes. Some say they aren't even made by EAT but are another mfg. repainted and fancied up with the fin gizmo.
Every time I start down the NOS road something ends up noisy or not sounding too great so I put a couple of the EHs, which I've actually checked out by listening to them, back in and they sound better. The NOS tubes seem better at first as they are less dynamic and give the impression of nicer quality until I put the EHs back in and hear all I've been missing. Not sure what we're trying to do with the tube swapping but it reminds a bit of cable swapping without the pleasure of looking at those pretty new wires that make you feel okay about all that $$$ expense. Sorry if I annoyed you upgrade folks with this comment.

Back to the music... :yes:
Bob

Indeed the NOS tubes are a bit hit and miss unless you are purchasing from a reputable dealer that screens them and picks the best ones. Even then I have recently had a case where one tube I purchased went bad but at least the dealer sent out a replacement quickly.

[Coppy]

Indeed the NOS tubes are a bit hit and miss unless you are purchasing from a reputable dealer that screens them and picks the best ones. Even then I have recently had a case where one tube I purchased went bad but at least the dealer sent out a replacement quickly.

Ron,

Thanks for the perspective. My dealer, Tube Depot has been helpful and replaced the Mullards that went noisy for me with some Siemans that we agreed on to try. I guess the reality for me is that I just end up liking the more dynamic sound of the new EH tubes better than what sounds to me to be the more laid back, rolled off sound of the NOS tubes that also appear to be less reliable. The folks at c-j just give me that "I told you so" smile when they hear about the tube rolling experiments. The best of the EHs also seem to have eliminated the very tiny bit of 60 cycle hum from my GAT that I thought to be a ground loop issue from the amplifiers. I still need to float the grounds of the P350 and LP140 monos, but everything is pretty much silent now.

I'm beginning to think that when it comes to tubes... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Bob

[Puma Cat]

Ron,

Thanks for the perspective. My dealer, Tube Depot has been helpful and replaced the Mullards that went noisy for me with some Siemans that we agreed on to try. I guess the reality for me is that I just end up liking the more dynamic sound of the new EH tubes better than what sounds to me to be the more laid back, rolled off sound of the NOS tubes that also appear to be less reliable. The folks at c-j just give me that "I told you so" smile when they hear about the tube rolling experiments. The best of the EHs also seem to have eliminated the very tiny bit of 60 cycle hum from my GAT that I thought to be a ground loop issue from the amplifiers. I still need to float the grounds of the P350 and LP140 monos, but everything is pretty much silent now.

I'm beginning to think that when it comes to tubes... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Bob

A wise maxim indeed. I completely agree that C-J does an outstanding job of voicing their tubes to their components. There's no question they know what they are doing at C-J. While I have some non-stock tubes in my C-J products, they still sound superb with the stock tubes.

[ronenash]

I still need to float the grounds of the P350 and LP140 monos, but everything is pretty much silent now.

I'm beginning to think that when it comes to tubes... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Bob

Lifting the ground on tube equipment might not be a good idea. Remember these devices have over 500v inside. If anything goes wrong inside and there is a short between the power supply and the chassis and you have no ground connected you will get some serious electric shock touching the amps.
Solid state amps are less of a problem because of the much lower voltages inside.

Just a thought...

[Coppy]

Lifting the ground on tube equipment might not be a good idea. Remember these devices have over 500v inside. If anything goes wrong inside and there is a short between the power supply and the chassis and you have no ground connected you will get some serious electric shock touching the amps.
Solid state amps are less of a problem because of the much lower voltages inside.

Just a thought...

Ron,

Thank you for the good advise and words of caution. Much appreciated. What i need to do is some detective work on the ground loop and solve that issue properly so I can run the amps properly grounded without the loop hum. In the meantime, it's summer here and I'll just use the solid state amp and save the heat load the tube amps put in the room. Any tips on running down the ground loop? Many c-jers seem to have the problem.

Bob

[ronenash]

What worked for me is organizing all my cabling. I am using two wireworld matrix power distribution boxes. One for analog and one for digital. I disconnected all cables in my system and started routing them from scratch.
Started with the analog power cables. Ran the cables from my mono blocks and preamp tied together to to the distribution box. Then I routed the digital digital power cables to to the other distribution box. Again nice and tidy with the power cables tied together.
Only then I routed the interconnects trying to keep them as far away as possible from the power cables.
All this took me a couple of hours but once done there was no hum human the system sounded better altogether.

All my cabling is ww noise cancelling series 5.2.
Hope this works out for you as well.

[Coppy]

What worked for me is organizing all my cabling. I am using two wireworld matrix power distribution boxes. One for analog and one for digital. I disconnected all cables in my system and started routing them from scratch.
Started with the analog power cables. Ran the cables from my mono blocks and preamp tied together to to the distribution box. Then I routed the digital digital power cables to to the other distribution box. Again nice and tidy with the power cables tied together.
Only then I routed the interconnects trying to keep them as far away as possible from the power cables.
All this took me a couple of hours but once done there was no hum human the system sounded better altogether.

All my cabling is ww noise cancelling series 5.2.
Hope this works out for you as well.

Ron,

Good suggestion... I'll try the cable routing as an early solution alternative.

Bob

[ronenash]

Let me know how it works our for you.
Good luck.

[Coppy]

Let me know how it works our for you.
Good luck.

Ron,

After thinking the ground loop issue through, I decided to trouble shoot it from the amps back. With the amps powered up, the power cord grounds NOT lifted and the inputs not connected, all is quiet. When the ICs from the preamp are connected... hum. So I decided to unplug the power to each component on the preamps inputs and listen for the hum; one by one. When I unplugged the DynaLab tuner, the hum disappeared. So now it will be plugged into the power only when used, which isn't much any more. A small price to pay for silence. Well that's good, but what I still need to do is take your suggestion and do a better job routing the cables. That will be the next project. Thanks again... much safer now.

Bob

[ronenash]

Bob,

That's great! You can lift the ground on your tuner. It does not have high voltages inside and you will not risk shock.
Routing the cables better is always a good idea to get better sound.

Glad to hear it worked out for you.

[Coppy]

Bob,

That's great! You can lift the ground on your tuner. It does not have high voltages inside and you will not risk shock.
Routing the cables better is always a good idea to get better sound.

Glad to hear it worked out for you.

Ron,

Lift the ground on the tuner... great suggestion, thanks. It does have a couple of buffer tubes in the output circuit, but I believe they are pretty low plate voltage items so should not be a safety issue.

Thanks again,
Bob

[skroudo]

Sold my ET3 on Audiogon today :(
Hoping to get my new ET3SE Wednesday :)

[joeinid]

Sold my ET3 on Audiogon today :(
Hoping to get my new ET3SE Wednesday :)

Congratulations! All the CJ gear sounds great. Enjoy and pleas post a photo. :music:

[skroudo]

Congratulations! All the CJ gear sounds great. Enjoy and pleas post a photo. :music:

Thank you buddy.
Congrats to you for a beautiful GAT, you can't go wrong with CJ :)

[ronenash]

Sold my ET3 on Audiogon today :(
Hoping to get my new ET3SE Wednesday :)

Congrats Josh,
This is an upgrade well worth your investment. The only down side is the break in time. I connected my preamp with a constant radio source on for three weeks which took care of most of the break in. just make sure its connected to your power amp when you do this. The power amp can stay off.

[joeinid]

OK found the note from Allen that was published:



Regards,

Allen Wright

Vacuum State Electronics

Sadly Allen Wright passed away last year.


This High End Hi-Fi company was founded in Australia in 1982 by its managing director Allen Wright (1947-2011).
Since 2005 Vacuum State is located in Schaffhausen, Switzerland.

[skroudo]

Congrats Josh,
This is an upgrade well worth your investment. The only down side is the break in time. I connected my preamp with a constant radio source on for three weeks which took care of most of the break in. just make sure its connected to your power amp when you do this. The power amp can stay off.

Thank you my friend.
This is a great idea, I'm thinking that maybe I would like to hear the progress of the breaking in, crazy me :)

[joeinid]

Thank you my friend.
This is a great idea, I'm thinking that maybe I would like to hear the progress of the breaking in, crazy me :)

:nono:

I'm the same way. I want to enjoy the ride. One cool thing is one day you will be listening and think to yourself. Holy cow! what just happened, and you realize everything settled in and the break in process is done. Pure magic. :banana:

[skroudo]

:nono:

I'm the same way. I want to enjoy the ride. One cool thing is one day you will be listening and think to yourself. Holy cow! what just happened, and you realize everything settled in and the break in process is done. Pure magic. :banana:

LOL..... Agree !!!!

[skroudo]

10 hours on my new CJ ET3SE and 290 hours to go, and I'm amazed how good it's already sound :yes:

[ronenash]

10 hours on my new CJ ET3SE and 290 hours to go, and I'm amazed how good it's already sound :yes:

Josh, you will soon experience the funky teflon break in behaviour. Sounds great one day and horrid the other.

Here is a description of what you can expect that I read on the net in the past. It match quite closely my experience.


I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.


Enjoy the ride :music:

[skroudo]

Josh, you will soon experience the funky teflon break in behaviour. Sounds great one day and horrid the other.

Here is a description of what you can expect that I read on the net in the past. It match quite closely my experience.


I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.


Enjoy the ride :music:

Man, I will retired before my CJ will break in, and I'm only 45, but it's going to be a wonderful sounding retirement :)

[rthomeint]

Josh, you will soon experience the funky teflon break in behaviour. Sounds great one day and horrid the other.

Here is a description of what you can expect that I read on the net in the past. It match quite closely my experience.


I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.


Enjoy the ride :music:

I concur with your statement I found that with my HD3 it took a big step back around hour 200, I let it cook for a few days and that was the last turn backwards. After that it started to open up. I have been taking the burn in process is stride with my Met150. I've been running it 8 to 12 hours on then off for 1 hour. I have 12 hours to go before I hit 300. At this stage I find it over all better that my Premier 11. I can't wait to hear it around the 600 hour mark.

[skroudo]

I concur with your statement I found that with my HD3 it took a big step back around hour 200, I let it cook for a few days and that was the last turn backwards. After that it started to open up. I have been taking the burn in process is stride with my Met150. I've been running it 8 to 12 hours on then off for 1 hour. I have 12 hours to go before I hit 300. At this stage I find it over all better that my Premier 11. I can't wait to hear it around the 600 hour mark.

Any news?

I'm in the 200h of my CJ ET3 SE and it's is sound like it took a big step back, I can't wait to pass the 300h, it's killing me, one day it's sound great and the next day it's sound totally flat :(

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[rthomeint]

On My Met150 I ran it for about 15 hours a day until I got to hour 500. Once I got past hour 300 it stopped taking those giant steps back I'm at around hour 560 and it pretty well stable, sounding great. I think it 95+ % done. I like this amp more than my Premier 11A. Are pumping signal thru it went not listening?

[skroudo]

On My Met150 I ran it for about 15 hours a day until I got to hour 500. Once I got past hour 300 it stopped taking those giant steps back I'm at around hour 560 and it pretty well stable, sounding great. I think it 95+ % done. I like this amp more than my Premier 11A. Are pumping signal thru it went not listening?

That is great news my friend.

I have 300h to go!
I kind of missing my old CJ ET3 preamp :(

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[sandbites]

Hi i'm fence sitting on several pre-amps and the et3 is one of them. I know there is a big difference between the et3 and et3SE but i am on a budget and an ET3 might be what i can afford for now. If i mundorf the et3 down the road will it sound half as much as an et3SE at least or should i just save up and wait till i can afford the et3SE?

[Littlebunny]

I say get the ET3 first and see if you like it.

[Littlebunny]

Josh, you will soon experience the funky teflon break in behaviour. Sounds great one day and horrid the other.

Here is a description of what you can expect that I read on the net in the past. It match quite closely my experience.


I get more calls about products utilizing Teflon capacitors than any other type of capacitor. Teflon capacitors take a solid 400 hours to reach about 90% of their true potential and their true colors open up at the 600 hour mark. It has also been established that they will even continue to change, ever so slightly, up to 1200 hours. You may not notice these changes and I only mention it to give you an indication of the characteristics of Teflon.

During the break-in cycle of these capacitors, they will go through different stages. During the initial 150 hours, you will notice these capacitors will do a two steps forward, one step back routine. What you will notice is that one day you system may sound fine while the next day (after it's one step back) it will not sound as good as it did even the day before. This is the stage where the capacitors can actually sound broken. Don't be alarmed, it's simply the nature of Teflon.

What you will notice is a 2 dimensional sound. The bass may be uncontrolled, the midrange a bit foggy and a lack of air and extension. Absolutely no coherency.

After 150 hours, the capacitors start to stabilize. From this point onward, they will be more consistent in their progress. They will still only be at about 50% of their sonic potential but the one step back issue is gone. This stage will last to about the 200-250 hour mark. This is where they start to become more 'listenable' but you are till only half way there.

The bass should start getting better here and the highs a bit more extended but the midrange is not quite there yet.

Now that you have gone through the ugly stages and have reached the 300 hour mark, things are starting to come into focus. Teflon capacitors start coming into their own between 300 and 400 hours. You may still noticed a few quirks but they should be minimal at this point. You have have more control down below, the midrange is becoming more real and the upper end is starting to extend further. This is when I usually receive the phone calls telling me I was absolutely correct about what to expect.

One you reach the 400 hour mark, you are starting to reach sonic nirvana and it will not be long before you are experiencing the truest potential of Teflon capacitors. It's been a long road but you will probably find the journey well worth it. This is the point where the midrange magic is apparent. You should notice a sense of texture and realism that is uncanny. The bass is quick and firm and the highs extended with a great sense of air. You will now start realizing a wide, spacious presentation as well. At this point, I don't receive any phone calls at all as you will be too involved in your music to want to waste time talking to me.

After 400 hours........... Heaven.


Enjoy the ride :music:

Oooooooooooh. NOW I see this. Well this is spot-on. Echoing what someone wrote above: I'm probably going to have to leave the ET3 in my Will for one of you guys in case I expire during the 20-year break-in period.

[ronenash]

Hi i's fence sitting on several pre-amps and the et3 is one of them. I know there is a big difference between the et3 and et3SE but i am on a budget and an ET3 might be what i can afford for now. If i mundorf the et3 down the road will it sound half as much as an et3SE at least or should i just save up and wait till i can afford the et3SE?

The ET3 is a great preempt which I am sure you will enjoy. You can always upgrade to the se version in the future like I did for not much more than the price of buying the se to start with.
I would not mess with replacing parts in cj amp. They are using the best possible parts and are voicing their amps with these parts in mind.

CJ TEFLON capacitors are probably better than mundorf and in the SE version they are using the best Vishay resistors available in the audio circuit and the volume control. These resistors cost $16 each if you buy them yourself and the et3s has about 30 of those!