Power Cords and C-J

[dpod4]

I have seen how aftermarket power cords can make a huge difference (I would have never guessed or believed it before doing A-B testing in my system). I have Audience "e" powerchords for all my components but one (Harmonic Technology Magic Reference II Special Edition on my Herron phono preamp -- it lowers the noise floor and gets the grunge out without dampening dynamics (only on my Herron)).

So....I know C-J puts a lot of thought into every last detail sonically. I bet they even choose a champagne gold paint finish that has positive acoustic properties! But...I am wondering if anyone has swapped power cords on their CJ amps or preamps? Specifically on the Premier 350 (or CA200 since it is similar) and the GAT. If so, what differences did you hear versus stock (my Pr350 came with a superb power cord) and were you able to retain all the magic that is C-J if you switched? I just borrowed a $1,500 virtual dynamics power cord and didn't like what it did at all -- it made upper registers sound less natural and more splashy.

Thanks in advance for any insights. At this point I may hold out for a 20amp Audience powerchord "e" since I know what that brings to the party -- or keep stock cord for Pr350 since the sound is oh so yummy in stock form. :yes:

Darrin

[ronenash]

I had very good success with Wireworld power cords on my LP125mSE and the CA200 prior to that. Today I use the WW Aurora but I am in the process of upgrading to the electra silver.
You will find the WW power cables add focus, lower the noise floor and bring in more detail. Everything will sound more coherent and the soundstage with gain width and depth.

[Rafale]

The cordon supplied by CJ is excellent but regrettably it is not usable in Europe without an adapter, for my part I obtained very good results with Cardas ref PC on LP series amp, and I use at present Naim powerline on the whole system with Vibex powerstrip
Naim powerline has a plasticity which allows to realize well the routing in the narrow spaces, it keeps the shape which we give it

[jimtranr]

Not a 350 or CA200, but replacing the stock power cord with a two-meter-long Wireworld Electra 52 on my C-J Premier 17LS resulted in a quieter background, better focus, and more nuanced tonal rendering than already exhibited with that line stage in the loop and AC conditioning provided by an original-version Shunyata Hydra.

[dpod4]

Thx all - keep the good advice coming.

[dpod4]

Just bought a Running Springs Mongoose 20amp which is what Jeff Dorgay used with the Pr350 when he ran it in his system and reviewed it. I trust Jeff's ears and choices. Will update once I get it. Darrin

[Puma Cat]

Darrin,
Personally, I think very, very highly of Shunyata's power cords. I have a Black Mamba HC CX on the power amp and Hydra, and Black Mamba CX's on the Oppo and preamp. I also think the Venom3 is an absolutely amazing power cord, and in my own experience, it sounds better than a WW Silver Electra 5 Squared (not that WW doesn't make a very fine cord; they do). I use a Venom3 on my phono stage and plan to order two more, one for the Bifrost DAC, and one to power another power distributor, probably a Hydra. I haven't auditioned a Running Springs cord, but I know Jeff thinks very highly of the Running Springs power conditioners.

[dpod4]

Darrin,
Personally, I think very, very highly of Shunyata's power cords. I have a Black Mamba HC CX on the power amp and Hydra, and Black Mamba CX's on the Oppo and preamp. I also think the Venom3 is an absolutely amazing power cord, and in my own experience, it sounds better than a WW Silver Electra 5 Squared (not that WW doesn't make a very fine cord; they do). I use a Venom3 on my phono stage and plan to order two more, one for the Bifrost DAC, and one to power another power distributor, probably a Hydra. I haven't auditioned a Running Springs cord, but I know Jeff thinks very highly of the Running Springs power conditioners.

I might buy a venom 20amp to compare.

[Puma Cat]

How can you go wrong when they are only $99?

[dpod4]

How can you go wrong when they are only $99?

Exactly!

[dtb300]

Darrin,
Personally, I think very, very highly of Shunyata's power cords.
I have tried MANY MANY different companies and I always came back to Shunyata and DH Labs as my choice of PC's. Shunyata for components, and DH Labs for my speakers. But like anything else in this hobby, each should try before they buy and see what they like.

I use a Venom3 on my phono stage and plan to order two more, one for the Bifrost DAC, and one to power another power distributor, probably a Hydra. I haven't auditioned a Running Springs cord, but I know Jeff thinks very highly of the Running Springs power conditioners.
I am a firm believer that having multiple PC's upgraded will really show you what they can do compared to doing just one. But if budget is a concern (like most of us), then start on the Source or your Pre Amp/Power Amp.

Like PC's, I have tried MANY power conditioners and have settled on Shunyata or Running Springs. The Hydra's are very nice (I have no experience the new Alpha or Telos Conditioners). In comparison in my room and with my rig and my ears, I like the Running Springs Haley better on my front end stuff than the Shunyata Hydra. The Hydra's are used on my power amps and speakers and I am very happy with them in use there. But you really cannot go wrong with either company.

[dpod4]

Thanks. I had and sold a Hydra 6. I now have a audience ar12 which in my system sounds better (with audience e powerchords on most components). Looking forward to trying the RSA mongoose on the CJ amp.

[dpod4]

I received the RSA Mongoose 20amp powercord yesterday. I don't think it is broken in yet, but initial impressions mated to my CJ Pr350 amp are:
1. more powerful transient strike/dynamics
2. better separation between notes and instruments...a more deliberate sound
3. compared to Virtual Dynamics power cord I demoed, the RSA Mongoose retains all the sonic signature of the CJ...doesn't sound like a different piece of equipment was installed

[jeffreybehre]

Sometimes I wish I were golden-eared, and sometimes I'm glad I'm not. I have to work at hearing differences among, for instance, some good IC, speaker, or power cables. On powercables, I have used several Audioquest NRG-2 cables; I had replaced their equipment ends with Wattgate 320Is because the originals didn't grip the inlets very tightly. Since then I've assembled several PCs with Neotec NEP-3003 (13g., into the discplayer and preamp) and '3002 (11g., into the PS Audio Quintessance powerconditioner and the poweramps). Both use UPOCC-copper conductors and Furutech ends.

I can't tell you exactly how these changed the system's sounds, but my system continues to sound better--more transparent and smooth (less edgy)--with every change to it.

----------------------

'Till I can have a signature--Oppo '83SE discplayer, c-j MET1 preamp(1), 2 FirstWatt F4 poweramps with McC DNA-750s coming from 'Lew Johnson & Co.' next week, Vandersteen 5Bs(2). IC is Neotec UPOCC-copper cables with Xhadow RCAs, and speaker is custom-braided UPOCC-silver conductors in Teflon on MR & treble and a combination of UPOCC-copper- and UPOCC-silver-conductor stuff on lower frequencies. In the centerchannel is a much-improved V'steen VCC-1 driven by a much-improved Marantz MA-500.

(1) The now-discontinued 6-channel, all-analog, vacuumtubed (M8080s) unit with Jupiter HT and SoniCap Platinum caps in the powersupply and SC Platinum output-coupling caps.
(2) There's no such thing as a V'steen '5B' except at my house. RV builds an excellent crossover, but I replaced his 3 not-loved-by-me bypass caps with SC Platinums (Teflon-film) or MultiCap RTXs ('styrene) bypassed with small SC Platinums.

[Rafale]

Hello Jeffrey and welcome :wave:

[Jerome W]

Hello Jeffrey and welcome :wave:

No work tomorrow Philippe ?

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[Rafale]

No work tomorrow Philippe ?

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

Of course yes

[Jerome W]

Of course yes

Hummm....
I always thought that doctors were in bed early when they work in the morning :D

Sent from my iPhone using A.Aficionado

[dpod4]

oops looks like he went to bed...

[Briz Vegaas]

I have CA200 and CT5 setup. I think I mentioned before that I use power cords, but I have taken it to a high art (?). I found that you get what you pay for in this hobby. There is a law of diminishing returns but there is also a rule of cumulative benefits. Out of a good cord I expect to get better performance in all respects, less distortions to make music sound more natural detailed and dynamic. It should help the amp sound like its working well within its limits.

I bought my first aftermarket PC about 3 years ago. I have since replaced/traded them all at least once and I now use them in series for cumulative benefits and to spread the benefits with less cabling. As a result I can only think of one person who has a more comprehensive PS loom than I do.

My power solution is

- dedicated line from my power box with extra beefy wiring
- Nordost Odin from wall to Qbase
- Qv2 on Qbase, Qbase sitting on AC sort cones*
- Nordost Valhalla to second Qbase
- Qbase no, 2 is on Tippy toe feet*
- Valhalla to DAC, CA200 and INT202, a longer Brahma to CT5

I still don't know what possessed me to go this far apart from finding each successive change from Shiva cords up the line to be better than the previous one. It just became addictive, but I have no more plans for new wires.

*Anti resonance or coupling feet are a signiifcant part of my solution. If the Qbase touchs against the rack or are knocked off their feet I always hear that something is astray. Why this should be, I don't know, but it impacts on sound quality so thats where they stay.

Power may not be everything but it is the start of everything.

I have heard improvements in other peoples systems using these cables but it seems more pronounced at my place. I will say however that I had the un-nerving experience about a year ago when my suburb lost power in a storm. I arrived home to find my house was the only one with power, this lasted until very late at night. This may be a clue as to why I find power conditioning so critical. I must have a dedicated line to the power station.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jeffreybehre]

Briz Vegaas: "There is a law of diminishing returns but there is also a rule of cumulative benefits."
Oh so true. I believe very strongly that EVERY change to a music-reproduction system changes the sound, no matter how subtly and no matter if I or you or anyone can hear it. So even VERY subtle improvements do produce better sound, and those tiny little improvements are eventually audible. My system has gotten MUCH better over the last 3 years*, and I know that the many individually inaudible improvements have contributed to that.

As I wrote earlier, "I can't tell you exactly how these changed the system's sounds, but my system continues to sound better--more transparent and smooth (less edgy)--with every change to it."

Briz Vegaas: "Power may not be everything but it is the start of everything."
Brilliant, Briz; I agree heartily.


* starting with my acquisition of a pair of Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, which I improved substantially over a year and which I eventually replaced with Vandersteen 5As.

[oldjayz]

I have tried MANY MANY different companies and I always came back to Shunyata and DH Labs as my choice of PC's. Shunyata for components, and DH Labs for my speakers. But like anything else in this hobby, each should try before they buy and see what they like.


I am a firm believer that having multiple PC's upgraded will really show you what they can do compared to doing just one. But if budget is a concern (like most of us), then start on the Source or your Pre Amp/Power Amp.

Like PC's, I have tried MANY power conditioners and have settled on Shunyata or Running Springs. The Hydra's are very nice (I have no experience the new Alpha or Telos Conditioners). In comparison in my room and with my rig and my ears, I like the Running Springs Haley better on my front end stuff than the Shunyata Hydra. The Hydra's are used on my power amps and speakers and I am very happy with them in use there. But you really cannot go wrong with either company.

Like DTB I too have tried several different power cords. I have changed them on the Act2 and my Premier 350 from the stock cords. Although the stocks ones are not that bad you will notice differences in dynamics and more detail. Depending on the source and lots of other variables, (:)) you may find increased bass and cleaner highs due to the removal of some grunge.
I had a Shunyata Venom on the 350 nd it was very good. I then compared the RSA Mongoose and the Shunyata Python (?). The Mongoose was great in every way but the Shunyaya gave it a little more "black" and presented everything amazingly.

Currently I have an Audience on the Act2 but would love to use either a Mongoose or Shunyata based on what it had done with the amp. Of course there is the money which is stopping me at the moment.:nono:

[Joe Appierto]

[QUOTE=jeffreybehr;271512]Briz Vegaas: "There is a law of diminishing returns but there is also a rule of cumulative benefits."
[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]Oh so true. I believe very strongly that EVERY change to a music-reproduction system changes the sound, no matter how subtly and no matter if I or you or anyone can hear it. So even VERY subtle improvements do produce better sound, and those tiny little improvements are eventually audible.


There's a concept in psychology called a Just Noticeable Difference (JND). It is the amount of change in a stimulus before the average person perceives that there's something different being presented to him or her. I believe that some of the changes we make to our systems may fall below this JND threshold, but when two or more are taken together in the aggregate, there is a perceptible difference. That’s when we notice that something is different in the musical presentation whether good or bad.

I think all too often, however, the change has both positive and negative elements and that’s what makes me, at least, so crazy when it comes to this hobby of ours. Getting the changes to line up positively is harder than I’d thought.

[Briz Vegaas]

I sometimes think that the negative effects are simply a product of the system being more transparent. For instance, with some changes the bass seemed to get lighter, but when I listened over a number of recordings it was clear that the bass had improved on other tracks. It was tighter and more detailed. The loss of bass was a loss of some of the bloom, ie the nice distortions that we once attributed to tube amps of old.

Shuffle play on a file based source is great for evaluation of changes. It removes the bias of your favorite test tracks. Remember that you picked those tracks based on your systems sound at a point in time. Playing that long forgotten track can sometimes be very informative and is just as important as the tracks you have been thrashing over the past month. It gives a longer term perspective of cumulative changes and it has shown me how much things have improved over the last 2 years.

[Rafale]

One day I realized that I spent finally more time to try to perceive differences that to listen to the music ......
Let us listen to the music and not the sound which it produces...of course my 2 cents

[jimtranr]

One day I realized that I spent finally more time to try to perceive differences that to listen to the music ......
Let us listen to the music and not the sound which it produces...of course my 2 cents

Make that 4 cents. :yes:

[two dot]

I haven't tried different aftermarket p/c's but I will say that the pc that came with my CA-200 is the highest quality cord that I have ever received with a piece of gear.

Nice work CJ.

[dpod4]

One day I realized that I spent finally more time to try to perceive differences that to listen to the music ......
Let us listen to the music and not the sound which it produces...of course my 2 cents

+1

[audiot servant]

Power may not be everything but it is the start of everything.


+1 on the brilliant thing...

[Briz Vegaas]

Yes

No.

Yes.

No

I think I'm conflicted.

I like the sound I get with the wires, just as I am sure folks enjoy their GAT or pv14ls that might replace other gear. You don't have to go crazy with this stuff (cables) but it's one way of sticking with a component you have and realizing better performance if you feel you want it. End of the day, if I'm not enjoying the music i'm not happy about all that money spent on the setup.

Stopping to enjoy what you have is good advice however. I will stop typing and listen to some more music.

[Coppy]

One day I realized that I spent finally more time to try to perceive differences that to listen to the music ......
Let us listen to the music and not the sound which it produces...of course my 2 cents

Exactly...:thumbsup:

[turntable]

I have CA200 and CT5 setup. I think I mentioned before that I use power cords, but I have taken it to a high art (?). I found that you get what you pay for in this hobby. There is a law of diminishing returns but there is also a rule of cumulative benefits. Out of a good cord I expect to get better performance in all respects, less distortions to make music sound more natural detailed and dynamic. It should help the amp sound like its working well within its limits.

I bought my first aftermarket PC about 3 years ago. I have since replaced/traded them all at least once and I now use them in series for cumulative benefits and to spread the benefits with less cabling. As a result I can only think of one person who has a more comprehensive PS loom than I do.

My power solution is

- dedicated line from my power box with extra beefy wiring
- Nordost Odin from wall to Qbase
- Qv2 on Qbase, Qbase sitting on AC sort cones*
- Nordost Valhalla to second Qbase
- Qbase no, 2 is on Tippy toe feet*
- Valhalla to DAC, CA200 and INT202, a longer Brahma to CT5

I still don't know what possessed me to go this far apart from finding each successive change from Shiva cords up the line to be better than the previous one. It just became addictive, but I have no more plans for new wires.

*Anti resonance or coupling feet are a signiifcant part of my solution. If the Qbase touchs against the rack or are knocked off their feet I always hear that something is astray. Why this should be, I don't know, but it impacts on sound quality so thats where they stay.

Power may not be everything but it is the start of everything.

I have heard improvements in other peoples systems using these cables but it seems more pronounced at my place. I will say however that I had the un-nerving experience about a year ago when my suburb lost power in a storm. I arrived home to find my house was the only one with power, this lasted until very late at night. This may be a clue as to why I find power conditioning so critical. I must have a dedicated line to the power station.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Nice to see a Nordost user and your combo of Nordost cables is very interesting. Odin from the wall to your Qbase for one is unconventional. personally I have yet to find any power conditioner that sounds better than from wall. I do have tywo dedicated lines thou and 240 volr power.

I find that Nordost's speed, clarity and purity is a good combo with cj's natural, yet laid back delivery.

I use valhalla ic's between my Phono and pre amp and Tyr speaker cables.

What have you found the valhalla pc's doing to your system?

I am debating on whether to buy a used valhalla pc for the cj GAT and maybe my phono stage, or buy a new Tyr 6m ic to go between my pre and power amps?

can't afford both:tears:

[Briz Vegaas]

Go the Valhalla power cord. Used from the wall you get benefits for all your components. Audition if you can, although in my experience 80% of folks bought after a short audition so the strike rate is good.

Some power conditioners I have heard have been a backward step. I prefer to risk the surge problem, but I switch off at the wall after listening and unplug in storm season. That means I live with a system that's warming up for the first hour or so.

Of the five audiophiles I know well in Brisbane One is Odin / brahma one is all Valhalla and 2 are all brahma. Only one guy did not go with the pcs, but he uses qbase and the qv2s.

We have a Nordost hotspot here because the first guy to audition them took it upon himself to visit his mates houses with the cable under his arm. No one in their right mind is going to buy an expensive power cord without hearing excellent results at home first. We are nuts but we aren't stupid. ;-)

There is the "risk" that you already have excellent power in your neighbourhood and a fancy cord will do little for your system. I guess if you buy second hand you can always sell without losing money, should that be the case.

[Rafale]

How can a PC improve a poor quality electric current ?

[Rayooo]

How can a PC improve a poor quality electric current ?


Properly designed power cords have subatomic quantum resonance damping that can clean up misbehaving electrons. :D

:icon_jump:

[Briz Vegaas]

No it's not.

Well designed cables are grown on the southern slopes of north facing fields on shallow loamy soils with a ph between 6.3 and 6.341. The trick is to only water them on Wednesdays during the growing season.

What I want to know is how a little box of circuits and glass tubes on the end of miles of power lines connected to a spinning coil and a magnet can possibly turn coal into music. It's all snake oil. It's impossible.

[Rafale]

A bad power to the entry of the cordon is a bad current at the exit of the cordon....no ? a cordon is not a power conditioner/stabilizer or a regenerator ..... it is what I wanted to say

[Rayooo]

A bad power to the entry of the cordon is a bad current at the exit of the cordon....no ? a cordon is not a power conditioner/stabilizer or a regenerator ..... it is what I wanted to say

yes, but, why could not an aftermarket power cord company utilize "special" power cable, with relatively higher amounts of C and L in the cable itself, and market said cable as "noise reducing power cable".

technically speaking a power cord with a ferrite core on the end, improves a noisy power source. no?

[turntable]

Go the Valhalla power cord. Used from the wall you get benefits for all your components. Audition if you can, although in my experience 80% of folks bought after a short audition so the strike rate is good.

Some power conditioners I have heard have been a backward step. I prefer to risk the surge problem, but I switch off at the wall after listening and unplug in storm season. That means I live with a system that's warming up for the first hour or so.

Of the five audiophiles I know well in Brisbane One is Odin / brahma one is all Valhalla and 2 are all brahma. Only one guy did not go with the pcs, but he uses qbase and the qv2s.

We have a Nordost hotspot here because the first guy to audition them took it upon himself to visit his mates houses with the cable under his arm. No one in their right mind is going to buy an expensive power cord without hearing excellent results at home first. We are nuts but we aren't stupid. ;-)

There is the "risk" that you already have excellent power in your neighbourhood and a fancy cord will do little for your system. I guess if you buy second hand you can always sell without losing money, should that be the case.


What a difference a power cable can make. I bought a used Nordost Vahalla pc and it arrived a few days ago. Now where to put it? My cj GAT.

I substituted my cardas golden reference with the Valhalla. This was after I first listened to the golden ref, after all differences are subtle at best right.

No subtle difference here. The Valhalla is better in every respect in my system. First up the music seemed faster and more coherent. Everything is definately clearer and better defined. Treble is better extended and easier to follow.

I love this Valhalla pc. As always ymmv. I first tried Valhalla cable around 7 years ago and it was too much, that is it brought out the faults in my system rather than the strengths. My system is a lot more refined and pure sounding now and this really brings out the strengths of Valhalla.

The Valhalla pc will never leave my cj GAT.

I will say your system is only as good as your weaknesses. I am now saving up for a used Valhalla pc to go on my phono stage.

Cheers

[dpod4]

What a difference a power cable can make. I bought a used Nordost Vahalla pc and it arrived a few days ago. Now where to put it? My cj GAT.

I substituted my cardas golden reference with the Valhalla. This was after I first listened to the golden ref, after all differences are subtle at best right.

No subtle difference here. The Valhalla is better in every respect in my system. First up the music seemed faster and more coherent. Everything is definately clearer and better defined. Treble is better extended and easier to follow.

I love this Valhalla pc. As always ymmv. I first tried Valhalla cable around 7 years ago and it was too much, that is it brought out the faults in my system rather than the strengths. My system is a lot more refined and pure sounding now and this really brings out the strengths of Valhalla.

The Valhalla pc will never leave my cj GAT.

I will say your system is only as good as your weaknesses. I am now saving up for a used Valhalla pc to go on my phono stage.

Cheers

This is why I like the audience cabling (interconnect and power cables) with CJ GAT and Pr 350. Increases dynamics and treble extension which balances the relaxed orientation of CJ gear.

[Rafale]

It is impossible in my opinion to generalize, every installation being different with a particular quality of current, different quality / brand tubes... what works in a system can show itself bad in the other one..... we thus have to experiment

[Joe Appierto]

It is impossible in my opinion to generalize, every installation being different with a particular quality of current, different quality / brand tubes... what works in a system can show itself bad in the other one..... we thus have to experiment

Exactly. Perfectly put, Phillipe.

[turntable]

Very true Joe, Philippe

That is why I said in my system and your milage may vary. No such thing as best, only best for you.

[Rafale]

Very true Joe, Philippe

That is why I said in my system and your milage may vary. No such thing as best, only best for you.

Shane ....very happy for you, it's great when it works:thumbsup:

[Briz Vegaas]

Second hand makes a lot of sense to those of us that do not have the dollars to buy top end gear. I have had some third hand Valhalla speaker cables in for the past week and am in the process of acquiring them. They are like my Tyr but fuller and just a little more " real" sounding. The jumpers were new and took a week to open up. This made the decision touch and go to start with. Listening to Beethoven symphony right now and the scale and ease of the sound is very very nice. Maybe I should be using better speakers the B&W 804s given what is now driving them but they will have to do for a good while yet I think. It no hardship as they do resins well to all the tweaking upstream.

[turntable]

I have only bought used Nordost, as it is expensive.

I do have a closeout 5.5m Tyr interconnect in transit ATM. That will give me a full Nordost loom. :thumbsup: Hopefully not too much of a good thing :yes::no:

[dpod4]

edited

[turntable]

All I can say is one's system is only as good as it's weakest link.

My 5.5m Acoustic Zen silver reference has been one of those weak links in system. With the Tyr ic in the systems is smoking.

The full Nordost suite from pc to speaker cable has maintained all the cj tone, purity and density, but at the same time added better transparency, more natural extended upper frequencies, better speed and overall musicality. With the Acoustic Zen it was slow , bloated and sloppy by comparison.

As cj says " just sounds right ". :thumbsup: Highly recommended.

Cheers

[dpod4]

Audience Au24 "e" 20amp power cord (won absolute sound product of year award) sounds AMAZING on CJ350!!! Gives more punch and clarity and energy.

[Puma Cat]

I'm going to stick with recommendations for Shunyata power cords.

[joeinid]

I'm going to stick with recommendations for Shunyata power cords.

I picked up a couple of Venom 3's and Diamondback cords as per Stephens recommendation. Holy cow, he was right. What a superb value. :thumbsup:

[Rafale]

I picked up a couple of Venom 3's and Diamondback cords as per Stephens recommendation. Holy cow, he was right. What a superb value. :thumbsup:

good :thumbsup:

[dpod4]

I picked up a couple of Venom 3's and Diamondback cords as per Stephens recommendation. Holy cow, he was right. What a superb value. :thumbsup:

The Venom 3s get my vote for best bang for the buck - insanely good for the price. I have one driving my Beyerdynamic headphone amp.

[joeinid]

good :thumbsup:

:yes: Thank you!

The Venom 3s get my vote for best bang for the buck - insanely good for the price. I have one driving my Beyerdynamic headphone amp.

At some point I'll try the Audience you recommend Darrin. I had to replace the stock cord and figured, what the heck.

:thumbsup: